Wraf Abuse!
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This thread is about the latter. Calling a Taff (or, indeed a Jock - yes, it has happened to me too, many times) a sheepshagger is one thing. Sexual harassment is quite another.
Hi Gang;
Now that is as racist as the obvious ones...and I'm a Jock too an I can laugh it all off...
We have a female in the office..we appreciate her professionalism an treat her as such...doesn't stop the banter...and it is reciprocated too....
Banter is fine...bullying is not..99% of us banter just like we do on PPrune...
Regards to Most;
'J' Bloke
Hi Gang;
Now that is as racist as the obvious ones...and I'm a Jock too an I can laugh it all off...
We have a female in the office..we appreciate her professionalism an treat her as such...doesn't stop the banter...and it is reciprocated too....
Banter is fine...bullying is not..99% of us banter just like we do on PPrune...
Regards to Most;
'J' Bloke
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An Teallach
Quote: I have also had one flt cdr attempt to rape me twice and had one sqn cdr rape me
If this is true report it to the police!!!!!
Somehow I find it hard to beleive that bird99 has been raped by the SENGO and JENGO of a sqn and the lads of the Sqn have done nothing about it.
If I am wrong I apologe tyo you personally Bird99, but these are serious alegations.
If true I will eat my hat and leave the life I love with discust. If False - well wot can I say!!!!!
Quote: I have also had one flt cdr attempt to rape me twice and had one sqn cdr rape me
If this is true report it to the police!!!!!
Somehow I find it hard to beleive that bird99 has been raped by the SENGO and JENGO of a sqn and the lads of the Sqn have done nothing about it.
If I am wrong I apologe tyo you personally Bird99, but these are serious alegations.
If true I will eat my hat and leave the life I love with discust. If False - well wot can I say!!!!!
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Not being in the services I can't comment (only an 18-year old wannabe), but this thread has deteriorated into a war of words between two people who would happily accept the same idea.
Sexual harrassment will never be right, in any place under any circumstances. The more PC things become, the more likely you are to get in the sh!t for some harmless comment.
Times have changed, get over it... offer support to those who have the balls to tell you if their being picked on, and think before you speak. Whats funny to you isn't necessarily funny to the person it's being aimed at.
Being someone who was bullied when younger (and who is unfortunately half Welsh), it's not always easy to see the funny side, not when everyone around you is singling you out.
Sexual harrassment will never be right, in any place under any circumstances. The more PC things become, the more likely you are to get in the sh!t for some harmless comment.
Times have changed, get over it... offer support to those who have the balls to tell you if their being picked on, and think before you speak. Whats funny to you isn't necessarily funny to the person it's being aimed at.
Being someone who was bullied when younger (and who is unfortunately half Welsh), it's not always easy to see the funny side, not when everyone around you is singling you out.
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SRENNAPS
No offence - what I said was true (it's well below me to make anything like that up). Some very good people did try to encourage me to take things further but, as I said, I didn't feel I could at the time. I wish your daughter all the best - I'm certainly not trying to scaremonger - but maybe remember that any workplace has its problems and assuming she'll be fine doesn't give her much room to tell you if it's not.
An Teallach
Thanks.
PS Please don't imagine I'm some delicate type who can't take banter - believe me I'm all for it.
No offence - what I said was true (it's well below me to make anything like that up). Some very good people did try to encourage me to take things further but, as I said, I didn't feel I could at the time. I wish your daughter all the best - I'm certainly not trying to scaremonger - but maybe remember that any workplace has its problems and assuming she'll be fine doesn't give her much room to tell you if it's not.
An Teallach
Thanks.
PS Please don't imagine I'm some delicate type who can't take banter - believe me I'm all for it.
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Bird99
Thanks for that, i appreciate your thoughts a great deal.
The RAF is a wonderful place to be in with the opportunities it offers. I relish the thought of my daughter joining and the oppurtunities of life and fun that she will enjoy.
And you are right - all workplaces have their problems, but I do believe that my daughter will have a greater life of fun in the RAF then a job elewhere.
We are not a bunch of sexuaul harrassing morons (even when we have drunk out of the whiskey bottle) - we just enjoy what we have got and have a good laugh.
Thanks for that, i appreciate your thoughts a great deal.
The RAF is a wonderful place to be in with the opportunities it offers. I relish the thought of my daughter joining and the oppurtunities of life and fun that she will enjoy.
And you are right - all workplaces have their problems, but I do believe that my daughter will have a greater life of fun in the RAF then a job elewhere.
We are not a bunch of sexuaul harrassing morons (even when we have drunk out of the whiskey bottle) - we just enjoy what we have got and have a good laugh.
Apache for HEMS - Strafe those Survivors!
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I worked with female personnel throughout my career in the service and never found that either they or the vast majority of those working with them had any problem identifying the boundary between banter and inappropriate behaviour. Quite often if there was a problem they were quite prepared to resolve it themselves.
I therefore had the somewhat naive view that this problem didn't exist in this day and age. This was destroyed when one of my female personnel made allegations of serious sexual assault, by an officer, to me. Despite initial reluctance on her part, after speaking with female officers, she was persuaded to allow a formal investigation to go forward. The opinion of P&SS, which I completely believed, was that they felt her story was genuine.
The outcome of this was probably less than satisfactory for everyone involved, what it did do was shake me from the cosy view that "this can't happen now". Believe me, it does happen and when you encounter it, it shocks you to the core.
I therefore had the somewhat naive view that this problem didn't exist in this day and age. This was destroyed when one of my female personnel made allegations of serious sexual assault, by an officer, to me. Despite initial reluctance on her part, after speaking with female officers, she was persuaded to allow a formal investigation to go forward. The opinion of P&SS, which I completely believed, was that they felt her story was genuine.
The outcome of this was probably less than satisfactory for everyone involved, what it did do was shake me from the cosy view that "this can't happen now". Believe me, it does happen and when you encounter it, it shocks you to the core.
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Secret report shows shocking scale of bullying and abuse. Urgent call for Hoon to act on scandals in the services
By Francis Elliott, Deputy Political Editor
23 January 2005
Almost half of all women serving in the Royal Air Force have been sexually harassed, according to an internal report obtained by The Independent on Sunday.
The official research, carried out last year but kept secret, indicates that more than 1,000 women are currently enduring or have suffered sexual harassment in the past 12 months.
Victims are typically harassed by two or more male servicemen of a senior rank, the survey found. Most of the victims had been groped or subjected to sexually explicit remarks or gestures, but only half of them complained.
Most worrying for service chiefs is that the survey found that sexual harassment had increased since a similar report three years ago.
It concluded that "whilst people experience unacceptable behaviour, the majority tolerate it and do not complain especially because they feel it will not be taken seriously or will affect their career".
The secret research is revealed after a week in which the conduct of the British Army has been under intense scrutiny as three soldiers face a court martial for allegedly abusing Iraqi detainees.
The survey shows that bullying of both sexes is also widespread in the service: the RAF's own figures suggest more than 3,000 of its staff have been targeted within the past 12 months. The RAF has a total staff of 46,350, of whom 6,300 are women.
The findings of the survey mirror those of a similar report carried out in the Army. That survey found that nearly 90 per cent of soldiers believed bullying was taking place in the ranks.
The extent of bullying in Britain's armed forces came to light recently after a series of investigations into the suspicious deaths of four recruits at the Deepcut army barracks.
Geoff Hoon, the Secretary of State for Defence, was called on last night to take urgent action to force the armed forces to institute "fundamental reform" of its complaints system to protect victims.
Paul Keetch, the Liberal Democrats' defence spokes-man, whose questioning forced the Ministry of Defence to release its research, said: "These figures raise grave questions about the level of bullying and sexual harassment in the service. The RAF must urgently institute fundamental reform of the complaints system, which is profoundly inadequate."
Speaking to The Independent on Sunday yesterday, one superior officer. "My complaint was investigated by a man who was in effect our boss, and the strong impression was that this was a case of senior ranks protecting themselves. I was transferred to another unit where I was ostracised to the extent that I eventually had to leave the base.
"The RAF is a small world and I knew that this would follow me wherever I went. So after 11 years I was forced to leave, while the sergeant about whom I had complained was promoted."
Ms Brumfitt, backed by the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC), was eventually awarded £30,000 after an industrial tribunal found that she had been victimised for making her complaint.
In a second case backed by the EOC, Flight Lieutenant Padraigin Byard won damages after a tribunal heard evidence that her male crew had placed a bounty on her head for the first to have sex with her.
In a scathing judgment in the 31-year-old's favour, the tribunal stated: "We heard too many instances of senior officers with sexist views which have no place in an organisation committed to equal opportunities and which are quite frankly illegal."
The figures for the number of women suffering sexual harassment over the past 12 months were extrapolated from responses to a survey stated in the document, A Summary of Extended Analysis of 2003 Sexual Harassment, Sexual Discrimination and Bullying Survey.
An MoD spokesman said: "Part of the reason for carrying out these surveys is to establish the extent of any problems and what needs to be done to address them."
LINK
By Francis Elliott, Deputy Political Editor
23 January 2005
Almost half of all women serving in the Royal Air Force have been sexually harassed, according to an internal report obtained by The Independent on Sunday.
The official research, carried out last year but kept secret, indicates that more than 1,000 women are currently enduring or have suffered sexual harassment in the past 12 months.
Victims are typically harassed by two or more male servicemen of a senior rank, the survey found. Most of the victims had been groped or subjected to sexually explicit remarks or gestures, but only half of them complained.
Most worrying for service chiefs is that the survey found that sexual harassment had increased since a similar report three years ago.
It concluded that "whilst people experience unacceptable behaviour, the majority tolerate it and do not complain especially because they feel it will not be taken seriously or will affect their career".
The secret research is revealed after a week in which the conduct of the British Army has been under intense scrutiny as three soldiers face a court martial for allegedly abusing Iraqi detainees.
The survey shows that bullying of both sexes is also widespread in the service: the RAF's own figures suggest more than 3,000 of its staff have been targeted within the past 12 months. The RAF has a total staff of 46,350, of whom 6,300 are women.
The findings of the survey mirror those of a similar report carried out in the Army. That survey found that nearly 90 per cent of soldiers believed bullying was taking place in the ranks.
The extent of bullying in Britain's armed forces came to light recently after a series of investigations into the suspicious deaths of four recruits at the Deepcut army barracks.
Geoff Hoon, the Secretary of State for Defence, was called on last night to take urgent action to force the armed forces to institute "fundamental reform" of its complaints system to protect victims.
Paul Keetch, the Liberal Democrats' defence spokes-man, whose questioning forced the Ministry of Defence to release its research, said: "These figures raise grave questions about the level of bullying and sexual harassment in the service. The RAF must urgently institute fundamental reform of the complaints system, which is profoundly inadequate."
Speaking to The Independent on Sunday yesterday, one superior officer. "My complaint was investigated by a man who was in effect our boss, and the strong impression was that this was a case of senior ranks protecting themselves. I was transferred to another unit where I was ostracised to the extent that I eventually had to leave the base.
"The RAF is a small world and I knew that this would follow me wherever I went. So after 11 years I was forced to leave, while the sergeant about whom I had complained was promoted."
Ms Brumfitt, backed by the Equal Opportunities Commission (EOC), was eventually awarded £30,000 after an industrial tribunal found that she had been victimised for making her complaint.
In a second case backed by the EOC, Flight Lieutenant Padraigin Byard won damages after a tribunal heard evidence that her male crew had placed a bounty on her head for the first to have sex with her.
In a scathing judgment in the 31-year-old's favour, the tribunal stated: "We heard too many instances of senior officers with sexist views which have no place in an organisation committed to equal opportunities and which are quite frankly illegal."
The figures for the number of women suffering sexual harassment over the past 12 months were extrapolated from responses to a survey stated in the document, A Summary of Extended Analysis of 2003 Sexual Harassment, Sexual Discrimination and Bullying Survey.
An MoD spokesman said: "Part of the reason for carrying out these surveys is to establish the extent of any problems and what needs to be done to address them."
LINK
Flight Lieutenant Padraigin Byard won damages after a tribunal heard evidence that her male crew had placed a bounty on her head for the first to have sex with her
Can anyone confirm or deny the ravings of this madman?
Nixor ut Ledo
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From today’s paper:
She might have a French movie star on her arm but that doesn’t stop Kylie Minogue from having a perve at other blokes.
The pint-sized pipette told a Melbourne radio station that if a good-looking sort “walks into your vision” she can’t help but notice.
“When something catches your eye, you just happen to be looking that way and someone walks into your vision, it’s not that you look at them, they have gatecrashed your vision, your frame of focus”, she said.
From a mythical RAF disciplinary report:
I strenuously deny any allegations of sexual harassment. SACW Bloggs merely walked into my vision and I couldn’t help but notice.
Spot the harassment and double standard.
Seems that there has to be a system to stop the vexatious reporting for those that confuse good natured banter with genuine sexual harassment. As the previous poster has pointed out "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" and there may well be more to the story than at first seems. However, by the time that the facts are out somebody's career/life has been well and truly done over.
Bird99 2 attempted rapes by a flt cdr and one actual rape by a sqn cdr??? And you didn't report it??? Whilst you have my utmost sympathies if true, one would have to severely question your judgement by a willingness to let 2 rapists remain at large in a tight knit organisation that relies on teamwork.
She might have a French movie star on her arm but that doesn’t stop Kylie Minogue from having a perve at other blokes.
The pint-sized pipette told a Melbourne radio station that if a good-looking sort “walks into your vision” she can’t help but notice.
“When something catches your eye, you just happen to be looking that way and someone walks into your vision, it’s not that you look at them, they have gatecrashed your vision, your frame of focus”, she said.
From a mythical RAF disciplinary report:
I strenuously deny any allegations of sexual harassment. SACW Bloggs merely walked into my vision and I couldn’t help but notice.
Spot the harassment and double standard.
Seems that there has to be a system to stop the vexatious reporting for those that confuse good natured banter with genuine sexual harassment. As the previous poster has pointed out "hell hath no fury like a woman scorned" and there may well be more to the story than at first seems. However, by the time that the facts are out somebody's career/life has been well and truly done over.
Bird99 2 attempted rapes by a flt cdr and one actual rape by a sqn cdr??? And you didn't report it??? Whilst you have my utmost sympathies if true, one would have to severely question your judgement by a willingness to let 2 rapists remain at large in a tight knit organisation that relies on teamwork.
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Being punished informally for a misdemeanour (eg turn up late for work, your 'turn' to hoover the crewroom). Being shouted at for being somewhere you shouldn't be (or not being somewhere you should), is not bullying.
Hmmm - "Being Punished informally"... Not too dissimilar to those other kangaroo courts of 'administrative action' which, even though making false, slanderous and libellous allegations and using trumped-up evidence which would frankly make the Stasi blush, still perpetuate in the military? 'Evidence' which those involved may be allowed to read, but are strictly forbidden to copy in order to assist with their own defence? 'Evidence' which, even disproven, will not dissuade the martinets from their chosen paths - "Don't tell me things that are inconvenient for me - even if they are true".
Still, perhaps I'll catch Kylie's eye. So long as she doesn't mind me discretely admiring her bum!
Still, perhaps I'll catch Kylie's eye. So long as she doesn't mind me discretely admiring her bum!
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Crossbow
I am not suggesting kangaroo courts or anything of the sort!!!!!
If someone comes in late for work there are officially 2 options:
1. Charge them. On the record. Commented on in ACR. Puts promotion back x years. Costs masses of money to administer, and costs the individual £000s.
2. Do nothing.
How about, when it comes to having to go and grit the paths in the cold or go and empty the bins, the person who is chosen is the one who couldn't get out of their pit. Someone's got to do it, why not the one who missed part of the shift and had other members of the team cover for them?
If I was late for work, I sure know which I'd prefer, and my own experience suggests that this is what most people prefer. It is important, though, to realise that persistent 'offenders' do need to be dealt with more formally.
.
I am not suggesting kangaroo courts or anything of the sort!!!!!
If someone comes in late for work there are officially 2 options:
1. Charge them. On the record. Commented on in ACR. Puts promotion back x years. Costs masses of money to administer, and costs the individual £000s.
2. Do nothing.
How about, when it comes to having to go and grit the paths in the cold or go and empty the bins, the person who is chosen is the one who couldn't get out of their pit. Someone's got to do it, why not the one who missed part of the shift and had other members of the team cover for them?
If I was late for work, I sure know which I'd prefer, and my own experience suggests that this is what most people prefer. It is important, though, to realise that persistent 'offenders' do need to be dealt with more formally.
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"Informal punishment"
To me means a punishment administered locally which doesn't blot your copy book - something for a cock up not worthy of a charge. Been on the receiving end of a couple and they did their job. (I took tools and forgot to tag them, 'volunteering' for a Christmas guard duty taught me the lesson, and stopped me being tech charged - the other alternative on offer.)
As a SNCO now though, I cannot punish anyone - and they know it. So, no matter how small the transgression (late, rude, lazy, etc) I have nothing below a chage to reprimand the offender. Daft.
To me means a punishment administered locally which doesn't blot your copy book - something for a cock up not worthy of a charge. Been on the receiving end of a couple and they did their job. (I took tools and forgot to tag them, 'volunteering' for a Christmas guard duty taught me the lesson, and stopped me being tech charged - the other alternative on offer.)
As a SNCO now though, I cannot punish anyone - and they know it. So, no matter how small the transgression (late, rude, lazy, etc) I have nothing below a chage to reprimand the offender. Daft.
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How about, when it comes to having to go and grit the paths in the cold or go and empty the bins
Thats where the problem starts. You have discriminated. You have had two people commit similar offences but they have been given different punishments. Thats why you cannot conduct your own "informal punishments".
Last edited by hyd3failure; 24th Jan 2005 at 13:11.
Having a sly look at the bottom of Miss Minogue is one thing - blame the hormones. Same goes for the pin ups of Tom Jones in the cleaner's batcave!
But if what bird99 says is true - and I've no reason whatsoever to doubt her - then that is an ENTIRELY different thing. She must speak to someone URGENTLY as these perverted bullies may still be at large.
I fervently hope that she has been able to overcome the awful trauma she must have experienced.
But if what bird99 says is true - and I've no reason whatsoever to doubt her - then that is an ENTIRELY different thing. She must speak to someone URGENTLY as these perverted bullies may still be at large.
I fervently hope that she has been able to overcome the awful trauma she must have experienced.
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Whilst my experience of Bullying and intimidation is nowhere near the experience of Bird99, when I joined it was "normal" procedure to organise an initiation ceremony. I was stripped naked, tied to a desk and my body was painted with food colouring whilst the rest of the team cheered and laughed. That was a long time ago but was considered perfectly normal.
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Hyd3 says:
'You have had two people commit similar offences but they have been given different punishments. Thats why you cannot conduct your own "informal punishments".'
Are you taking the pith? Would you have had them both charged then? Bit severe! Why can't the SNCO, with the experience he has and the training given, use his loaf to administer a small punishment? Are we so PC these days that someone of 20 years experience is not qualified to make a judgement call, yet a brand new Officer with just Cranwell behind him is? The spineless lSNCO who defers everything to his boss just in case he can't dish out fair admonishment will have loads of respect from his troops I'm sure.
If you fcuk up, expect a punishment. If you don't like what you're given off the record, opt for a formal punishment instead. Might make emptying the bins seem a good idea though eh?
Blimey.
'You have had two people commit similar offences but they have been given different punishments. Thats why you cannot conduct your own "informal punishments".'
Are you taking the pith? Would you have had them both charged then? Bit severe! Why can't the SNCO, with the experience he has and the training given, use his loaf to administer a small punishment? Are we so PC these days that someone of 20 years experience is not qualified to make a judgement call, yet a brand new Officer with just Cranwell behind him is? The spineless lSNCO who defers everything to his boss just in case he can't dish out fair admonishment will have loads of respect from his troops I'm sure.
If you fcuk up, expect a punishment. If you don't like what you're given off the record, opt for a formal punishment instead. Might make emptying the bins seem a good idea though eh?
Blimey.