UAS 's to close (Merged)
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
bad livin': you've mis-read my post, I was referring to CCF(RN)...
Anticlockwise: not really CCF's fault if they get more flying than ATC - we can, as you say, miss school to go midweek, which clearly ATC can't. But as a result we fill far more flying slots and arguably keep the whole thing viable - if it was just for ATC it would have folded by now.
And I have to say lscajp's post seems to suggest that actually, the UAS's are already scraping the barrel academically, so perhaps the RAF does need the recruitment drive...
BEags: there are certainly some UAS summer camps out there: Cosford was full of UBAS types grumbling about the lack of flying in July!
Tim
Anticlockwise: not really CCF's fault if they get more flying than ATC - we can, as you say, miss school to go midweek, which clearly ATC can't. But as a result we fill far more flying slots and arguably keep the whole thing viable - if it was just for ATC it would have folded by now.
And I have to say lscajp's post seems to suggest that actually, the UAS's are already scraping the barrel academically, so perhaps the RAF does need the recruitment drive...
BEags: there are certainly some UAS summer camps out there: Cosford was full of UBAS types grumbling about the lack of flying in July!
Tim
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: pillar to post.
Posts: 25
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The earlier comment about greater distances to travel selecting the more motivated studes- surely more likely to select those who:
1. Have less time-intensive courses, as previously stated
2. Have been lucky enough to have Daddy buy them a car
3. Study close to Leeming/Wyton anyway
No matter how motivated you are, try getting from Scotland/Wales/South West every weekend on public transport, while doing science/eng/whatever.
1. Have less time-intensive courses, as previously stated
2. Have been lucky enough to have Daddy buy them a car
3. Study close to Leeming/Wyton anyway
No matter how motivated you are, try getting from Scotland/Wales/South West every weekend on public transport, while doing science/eng/whatever.
Join Date: May 1999
Location: Sunny (or Rainy) Somerset, England
Posts: 2,026
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Can’t let that go unchallenged tmmorris. At our AEF we have about 5500 cadets on the books, about 750 of which are CCF(RAF), the rest ATC. The approximate figures for the whole AEF system throughout the country are 35500 ATC cadets and 9300 CCF(RAF) cadets. These figures are for the numbers of cadets that the flying task will be based on, in other words those who are aged 13 years and 3 months or more.
At our AEF we fly Wednesday to Sunday, except during Easter and Summer camps, when we fly Monday to Friday. During our normal week, the numbers of CCF(RAF) cadets flown from Wednesday to Friday varies between 10 and 45, depending upon school commitments and what stage the term is at. We fly some 72 ATC cadets each weekend that we are operating, and also the ATC squadrons take up some of the slack during the week at times like half terms.
My only point is that I don’t think the whole shebang would fold if it were not for the CCF(RAF) cadets. Both the ATC and the CCF)RAF) are equally important in the overall scheme of things.
PS: Not surprised that UBAS was full of people grumbling about no flying in July --- all the Tutors were grounded!
At our AEF we fly Wednesday to Sunday, except during Easter and Summer camps, when we fly Monday to Friday. During our normal week, the numbers of CCF(RAF) cadets flown from Wednesday to Friday varies between 10 and 45, depending upon school commitments and what stage the term is at. We fly some 72 ATC cadets each weekend that we are operating, and also the ATC squadrons take up some of the slack during the week at times like half terms.
My only point is that I don’t think the whole shebang would fold if it were not for the CCF(RAF) cadets. Both the ATC and the CCF)RAF) are equally important in the overall scheme of things.
PS: Not surprised that UBAS was full of people grumbling about no flying in July --- all the Tutors were grounded!
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: Regaining Track
Posts: 109
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Being a UAS product I am of course biased but:
1. I for one would probably not be in the RAF if it wasn't for the UAS. I always liked the idea of being an RAF Pilot but it wasn't until I was able to give it a go and see whether it was for me (and indeed whether I was for them) that I decided to join.
2. For those that DO join following UAS, it matters not when EFT is completed (indeed if it is completed prior to commissioning it is cheaper!)
3. It is better to chop pre-IOT than later!
4. Of course the RAF will always get enough people wanting to be aircrew, the question is whether we get a good mix and balance of individuals. There will always be a need for a graduate entry. The UAS is the best way of getting graduates to consider the RAF in the competitive job market that there is.
5. Finally, for those that don't join they will have a positive view of aviation and the military that will assist the service in many but unquantifiable ways. The 'value-added' for the military should not be under-estimated.
Bean-counters know the price of everything but the value of nothing!
1. I for one would probably not be in the RAF if it wasn't for the UAS. I always liked the idea of being an RAF Pilot but it wasn't until I was able to give it a go and see whether it was for me (and indeed whether I was for them) that I decided to join.
2. For those that DO join following UAS, it matters not when EFT is completed (indeed if it is completed prior to commissioning it is cheaper!)
3. It is better to chop pre-IOT than later!
4. Of course the RAF will always get enough people wanting to be aircrew, the question is whether we get a good mix and balance of individuals. There will always be a need for a graduate entry. The UAS is the best way of getting graduates to consider the RAF in the competitive job market that there is.
5. Finally, for those that don't join they will have a positive view of aviation and the military that will assist the service in many but unquantifiable ways. The 'value-added' for the military should not be under-estimated.
Bean-counters know the price of everything but the value of nothing!
Guest
Posts: n/a
The idea of training all potential pilots, indeed the whole officer corps, via a UAS is admirable. However the simple fact is that university tuition has been so diluted that it is of little use to the Service, add on a gap year befvore joining and a little holding time and those joining are too old when they start their careers.
IMHO is would be a better option to maintain an in-service degree for all (or most - if you want diversity) joiners, giving them a degree course in what will be useful for their career. This could effectively be a business course, with staff skills as well as leadership and flying elements. We would get our people earlier (44 weeks work a year as opposed to 30), more relevently trained and there is good earning potential from F&C students.
This system works well (from what I have been told) in the tri-service Oz defence academy and it may be worthy of consideration?
IMHO is would be a better option to maintain an in-service degree for all (or most - if you want diversity) joiners, giving them a degree course in what will be useful for their career. This could effectively be a business course, with staff skills as well as leadership and flying elements. We would get our people earlier (44 weeks work a year as opposed to 30), more relevently trained and there is good earning potential from F&C students.
This system works well (from what I have been told) in the tri-service Oz defence academy and it may be worthy of consideration?
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Anywhere there's ships and aircraft available
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The FAA is steadily rueing the day it concentrated on graduates as our average age on entry now touches 24.
To counter this we are going to lower the age limit to fall in line with the RAF. Its risky and targets will be difficult to reach but we are hurting at the other end of the scale with our 30 year old first tour chaps not interested in second front line jobs as they are by then mostly married with kids.
I personaly joined the RN at 16(as an Artificer) and was in Flying Training at 21 after a full apprenticeship.
I think the whole graduate thing does not necessarily make good pilots and obersvers..........pulls pin and retreats 20 yards.
To counter this we are going to lower the age limit to fall in line with the RAF. Its risky and targets will be difficult to reach but we are hurting at the other end of the scale with our 30 year old first tour chaps not interested in second front line jobs as they are by then mostly married with kids.
I personaly joined the RN at 16(as an Artificer) and was in Flying Training at 21 after a full apprenticeship.
I think the whole graduate thing does not necessarily make good pilots and obersvers..........pulls pin and retreats 20 yards.
Guest
Posts: n/a
Yeah Si, I agree, however we have an opportunity to make better officers. Being FAA myself and having spoken to a RAN observer he could't extol the virtues of a defence academy highly enough. There are other advantages - no ICSC required, OJT outside core terms, i.e flying for aviatiors, mixed with Sqn ops work, bridge time for fishheads etc.
At 21 you could have a rounded officer, ready to commence, say, AFT and then onto first front-line appointment.
This has got to be better than 'fast-tracking' URNU studes through Dartmouth, as they are deemed to have learned all there is to know about leadership, naval history etc by pi$$ing it up one night a week and the occasional weekend on a cheap version of a gin palace.
At 21 you could have a rounded officer, ready to commence, say, AFT and then onto first front-line appointment.
This has got to be better than 'fast-tracking' URNU studes through Dartmouth, as they are deemed to have learned all there is to know about leadership, naval history etc by pi$$ing it up one night a week and the occasional weekend on a cheap version of a gin palace.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK.
Posts: 12
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I have read this post with interest as both someone who is applying for the forces and is an ex UAS pilot member.
I found Si Cliks post, particularly interesting with regards to the FAA,s retention problems in terms of age and would have to agree with him on that point but I feel he miss’s the point with regards to graduate recruitment and why it is good for the services.
Obviously I am biased having done it myself but only have to look back to my schooldays to realise that University was the best thing that ever happened to me.
I went to a state school that was generally regarded as rubbish and where pupil’s aspirations for the future were equally low.
Thank to a father who gave me lots of encouragement I managed to get myself to Uni and found opportunities such as the UAS invaluable. I would not have even considered joining the forces without the UAS.
Secondly does University play a role in developing young people in the qualities of being a young officer which in my opinion are maturity and leadership?
Again as an 18 year fresh from my school I had no idea about what the world was about when I went to Uni. I still cringe at the some of the stuff I did when I was 18 particularly with women!
I have had the pleasure of meeting some incredible people from every culture this world has to offer.
Indeed my best friend is my old room mate I first met at University. He’s Palestinian and it was amazing to get his view point on the world’s struggles when I arrived there as it was chalk and cheese at first but we somehow managed to meet a consensus and become the best of friends
It certainly made me think and I feel that was the beauty of going to University – I can honestly say that it had made me a more rounded person in the context of officer qualities and forming opinions etc.
Obviously the RAF/ Navy have potentially lost out on 2 or 3 years service from me and it has narrowed my options If I make it through selection but what there getting I feel is a lot closer to the finished article than as a wet eared 18 year old.
No disrespect to any 18 years olds there as I have met some incredibly mature young Pilot Officers on my travels but on the whole as I have said earlier I personally believe its better to get some life experience under your belt before you join something like the forces.
The counter argument to this came from my old UAS boss who joined when he was 18 and he thought sometimes it was better to get recruits young and mould them to what you want at officer training rather than being allowed to develop their own ideas as they get older and think for themselves!
Sorry for rambling on but that’s my take on this issue,
Thanks, WW
P.S - SI Clik check your PM's. I have a question?
I found Si Cliks post, particularly interesting with regards to the FAA,s retention problems in terms of age and would have to agree with him on that point but I feel he miss’s the point with regards to graduate recruitment and why it is good for the services.
Obviously I am biased having done it myself but only have to look back to my schooldays to realise that University was the best thing that ever happened to me.
I went to a state school that was generally regarded as rubbish and where pupil’s aspirations for the future were equally low.
Thank to a father who gave me lots of encouragement I managed to get myself to Uni and found opportunities such as the UAS invaluable. I would not have even considered joining the forces without the UAS.
Secondly does University play a role in developing young people in the qualities of being a young officer which in my opinion are maturity and leadership?
Again as an 18 year fresh from my school I had no idea about what the world was about when I went to Uni. I still cringe at the some of the stuff I did when I was 18 particularly with women!
I have had the pleasure of meeting some incredible people from every culture this world has to offer.
Indeed my best friend is my old room mate I first met at University. He’s Palestinian and it was amazing to get his view point on the world’s struggles when I arrived there as it was chalk and cheese at first but we somehow managed to meet a consensus and become the best of friends
It certainly made me think and I feel that was the beauty of going to University – I can honestly say that it had made me a more rounded person in the context of officer qualities and forming opinions etc.
Obviously the RAF/ Navy have potentially lost out on 2 or 3 years service from me and it has narrowed my options If I make it through selection but what there getting I feel is a lot closer to the finished article than as a wet eared 18 year old.
No disrespect to any 18 years olds there as I have met some incredibly mature young Pilot Officers on my travels but on the whole as I have said earlier I personally believe its better to get some life experience under your belt before you join something like the forces.
The counter argument to this came from my old UAS boss who joined when he was 18 and he thought sometimes it was better to get recruits young and mould them to what you want at officer training rather than being allowed to develop their own ideas as they get older and think for themselves!
Sorry for rambling on but that’s my take on this issue,
Thanks, WW
P.S - SI Clik check your PM's. I have a question?
Last edited by wannabewingman; 18th Jan 2005 at 10:18.
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 48
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
To Clarify a few points.
RAF bursary is worth £1000 per year not per term for a pilot.
UAS studes are not paid everytime they fly there is a limit to the number of days pay they receive and it's about 1 month IIRC. I certainly saw little more than that and I flew atleast 3 days per week. Pay is normally given for summer camp etc. All students receive a quarter days pay £7 approx for attending town nights.
If a student passes IHT they will finish EFT before IOT.
As recent ex-UAS I am biased. Those who think the UAS is a glorified drinking club live in the past. Since EFT is now supposed to be completed before IOT, student pilots don't have the time to waste to think of flying as something to do when you're not at uni. Didn't come across too many "wasters" on my old UAS. To remove EFT will, IMHO turn the UAS into a drinking club with less purpose than it has today.
I would agree that EFT is not necessarily the best place to stream people. I joined the UAS in my 2nd year of a 3 year Engineering degree. The pressure of flying and finishing to my best certainly meant I had no time to spare to get a job and had to sacrifice my degree to an extent. This definitely effected me and many like finacially and academically.
RAF bursary is worth £1000 per year not per term for a pilot.
UAS studes are not paid everytime they fly there is a limit to the number of days pay they receive and it's about 1 month IIRC. I certainly saw little more than that and I flew atleast 3 days per week. Pay is normally given for summer camp etc. All students receive a quarter days pay £7 approx for attending town nights.
If a student passes IHT they will finish EFT before IOT.
As recent ex-UAS I am biased. Those who think the UAS is a glorified drinking club live in the past. Since EFT is now supposed to be completed before IOT, student pilots don't have the time to waste to think of flying as something to do when you're not at uni. Didn't come across too many "wasters" on my old UAS. To remove EFT will, IMHO turn the UAS into a drinking club with less purpose than it has today.
I would agree that EFT is not necessarily the best place to stream people. I joined the UAS in my 2nd year of a 3 year Engineering degree. The pressure of flying and finishing to my best certainly meant I had no time to spare to get a job and had to sacrifice my degree to an extent. This definitely effected me and many like finacially and academically.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: near the squirrel sanctuary
Posts: 192
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Surely the fact that the government wants 50% of school leavers to attend university means that, unless the Services offer a worthy In-Service Degree or are prepared to reduce the academic entry standards for officers, the Services will either have to recruit at universities or act in opposition to government policy by attempting to recruit school-leavers that are suitably qualified to enter further education.
If the answer is to recruit at universities, then the completion of Elementary Flying Training at university rather than post IOT must be worthy of consideration.
If the answer is to recruit at universities, then the completion of Elementary Flying Training at university rather than post IOT must be worthy of consideration.
Join Date: Dec 1999
Location: UK
Posts: 1,608
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Three truths:
1) You go to university to read for a degree, not to study for EFT. No point in doing everything university has to offer if one spends their life at UAS; answer: join the RAF instead of university.
2) Who on God's earth chose Leeming? Out of limits with any Westerly, in the middle of nowhere, and too small. Perhaps someone trying to justify Leeming's existence?
3) Not for a long time has it been a glorified drinking club. Officers mess always has worse behaved twits who blame the UAS. If you want to do EFT and a degree, it is only possible to be a moderate alcoholic of university standards.
Fact is, RAF shouldn't place burden of having to come so far to fly, as people are at uni for the degree. Otherwise what is the point in doing a degree. It doesn't show commitment to be at the UAS all the time; it instead wastes a decent university place that someone else could have had. Discuss.
1) You go to university to read for a degree, not to study for EFT. No point in doing everything university has to offer if one spends their life at UAS; answer: join the RAF instead of university.
2) Who on God's earth chose Leeming? Out of limits with any Westerly, in the middle of nowhere, and too small. Perhaps someone trying to justify Leeming's existence?
3) Not for a long time has it been a glorified drinking club. Officers mess always has worse behaved twits who blame the UAS. If you want to do EFT and a degree, it is only possible to be a moderate alcoholic of university standards.
Fact is, RAF shouldn't place burden of having to come so far to fly, as people are at uni for the degree. Otherwise what is the point in doing a degree. It doesn't show commitment to be at the UAS all the time; it instead wastes a decent university place that someone else could have had. Discuss.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Oxford
Posts: 2,042
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
1) You go to university to read for a degree, not to study for EFT. No point in doing everything university has to offer if one spends their life at UAS; answer: join the RAF instead of university.
Tim
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
Only mildly off topic, but the RN EFTS was based at Leeming in the late 70's. It was then a Master Diversion - complete with foam, barriers etc.
As a result we used Topcliffe as our daily base - and had the place to ourselves, which was very sensible. Sharing Leeming with visiting Vulcans would have been very awkward..
Topcliffe is now a satellite of Linton?
As for Wyton - that's a hell of a flog from Southampton and Bristol, for example.
As a result we used Topcliffe as our daily base - and had the place to ourselves, which was very sensible. Sharing Leeming with visiting Vulcans would have been very awkward..
Topcliffe is now a satellite of Linton?
As for Wyton - that's a hell of a flog from Southampton and Bristol, for example.
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: earth
Posts: 1,397
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I do not see why in the middle of a degree course the student should be learning to fly. Maybe a little air experience but any more is probably a bit of a waste at this stage.
If he is really motivated to fly military aircraft he will either forgo the university course or wait until he has his degree.
If he is really motivated to fly military aircraft he will either forgo the university course or wait until he has his degree.
Join Date: Jun 2000
Location: Anywhere there's ships and aircraft available
Posts: 199
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
In Service degrees.
The whole point here is we need a mix of people as Officer Aircrew. However, over the past 10 years or so the RNs 26 age limit has pushed the age spread too far to the right. An average age on entry of 24 does not reflect a totally graduate intake above that age.
On the degree issue the RN is pushing for a foundation degree for all non-graduate officers. Its already there for the Warfare guys and with most of flying training already accredited this will be in by the Autumn.
The age limit will change soon.
Good luck.
The whole point here is we need a mix of people as Officer Aircrew. However, over the past 10 years or so the RNs 26 age limit has pushed the age spread too far to the right. An average age on entry of 24 does not reflect a totally graduate intake above that age.
On the degree issue the RN is pushing for a foundation degree for all non-graduate officers. Its already there for the Warfare guys and with most of flying training already accredited this will be in by the Autumn.
The age limit will change soon.
Good luck.
Last edited by Si Clik; 18th Jan 2005 at 18:27.
One of the attractions of joining as a graduate was less time to Flt Lt and more cash. As the in-service degree doesn't confer these benefits, it doesn't surprise me that very few people seemed to pick up the offer through BFJT or the suchlike.
Bearing that in mind, there will always be those who want to go to university for 3 or 4 years, and if the RAF wants a few graduates to join them then they have to be competitve as a graduate employer. Which they currently are
So I can't see them changing that.
Bearing that in mind, there will always be those who want to go to university for 3 or 4 years, and if the RAF wants a few graduates to join them then they have to be competitve as a graduate employer. Which they currently are
So I can't see them changing that.
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: In the middle
Posts: 10
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
During my time on my UAS (sponsored ground branch member), we actively recruited all sorts. Being an ex-air cadet with all the ticks in the box didn't guarantee you a place, as we attempted to recruit a broad a spectrum as possible. It was policy not to recruit ground branch members (there were a couple of exceptions) as this element of the Sqn was taken up by the sponsored students. Therefore the 30 or so pilots recruited in the non-sponsored bracket were given one year to see how they got on. To be offered a 2nd year on the Sqn ALL non-sponsored students had to put their papers in for a bursary. Those that didn't want to commit left having enjoyed the experience, and are now out there as the sympathetic civvy knowing that it wasn't for them. Those that went to OASC in their 2nd year and were unsuccessful were allowed a 3rd year if they decided they wanted to give it another shot. This policy created a balanced pyramid of students, those in the latter stages of the UAS system being there as the final stepping stone to IOT.
Although there was the element of a social side to being in the UAS, certainly the pilots took it very seriously, and we had plenty of people doing the hard core degrees that are now spread across the FJ system (having been awarded 2:1 or 1sts). We also had the dedicated studes from Canterbury who would regularly do the 5 hour journey on public transport on a Fri night to get to Wyton for the weekend.
I had already made the decision to join the RAF and joined the UAS on being awarded a bursary, but there were plenty of studes who had no idea what the whole thing was about before bumping into someone in a green flying suit at the freshers fair, who are now serving across all sorts of branches.
Although there was the element of a social side to being in the UAS, certainly the pilots took it very seriously, and we had plenty of people doing the hard core degrees that are now spread across the FJ system (having been awarded 2:1 or 1sts). We also had the dedicated studes from Canterbury who would regularly do the 5 hour journey on public transport on a Fri night to get to Wyton for the weekend.
I had already made the decision to join the RAF and joined the UAS on being awarded a bursary, but there were plenty of studes who had no idea what the whole thing was about before bumping into someone in a green flying suit at the freshers fair, who are now serving across all sorts of branches.
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 5
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Just looking at the flying training side of this, I would have thought that change was overdue. At the moment, undergraduates, while studying for a degree, also have to complete a flying course over 3 years that could, through streaming, decide their future RAF flying career. And they compete for streaming against direct entrants who complete the course in 5 months of continuous training. Then, if they are successful, typical scheduling before, during and after IOT will leave a 1-year gap between EFT and BFT. So the first trip in a Tucano could be 1 year after the last in a Tutor, all with the benefit of 80 hours flying experience. With IOT about to get longer, surely this cannot be sensible. EFT after IOT sounds like a better idea all round.
As regards the UASs, what is the point of the vast majority of students being potential pilots? Does that reflect the real RAF? Which officer branches really need help in recruiting? I think that flying could take a lesser priority without losing the overall light blue tinge of the unit, and remove unnecessary pressure on UAS members.
As regards the UASs, what is the point of the vast majority of students being potential pilots? Does that reflect the real RAF? Which officer branches really need help in recruiting? I think that flying could take a lesser priority without losing the overall light blue tinge of the unit, and remove unnecessary pressure on UAS members.
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: whereevertheysendme
Posts: 3
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Its about time they closed down the UAS's what a waste of money, time and effort to get a few guys to join up! If they want to be military pilots they will join up anyway why get them to join a club to do it.
Another problem with UAS's is that they are being used to replace the proper flying training system..scrap the UAS's and re-open EFT. And while were at it get rid of civvies training military pilots and give the jobs back to the boys who know what they are talking about.
Another problem with UAS's is that they are being used to replace the proper flying training system..scrap the UAS's and re-open EFT. And while were at it get rid of civvies training military pilots and give the jobs back to the boys who know what they are talking about.