raf becoming army!
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raf becoming army!
so now it is decided in basra that there is a lack of standards and discipline being displayed so what does the hierachy decide?
no salutes to officers as it is a tactical enviroment, but you have to brace up/firm up and 'pass the time of day'
police/do gooders making sure the two can limit is strictly observed.
headress to be worn at all times(except in living area)
1021's threatened for not wearing proper headress
guards cant sit down on their duty.
what is happenening in this place?too much attention being paid to making up new rules and getting your name known for doing so, and not enough attention paid to more pressing matters.. i just think that the whole balance of priorities is so wrong.
no salutes to officers as it is a tactical enviroment, but you have to brace up/firm up and 'pass the time of day'
police/do gooders making sure the two can limit is strictly observed.
headress to be worn at all times(except in living area)
1021's threatened for not wearing proper headress
guards cant sit down on their duty.
what is happenening in this place?too much attention being paid to making up new rules and getting your name known for doing so, and not enough attention paid to more pressing matters.. i just think that the whole balance of priorities is so wrong.
Shades of the Chevette-set at ASI after the Malvinas war..
Or that stupid prick of an Army RSM at RAF Mount Pleasant who told people waiting for the inbound TriShaw to wear headgear on the ASP in the usual 30-40 kt wind. So I had great delight, as S/L Air and SFSO, in giving him a polite chat about FOD awareness.
Keep idiots away from aeroplanes - please!
Or that stupid prick of an Army RSM at RAF Mount Pleasant who told people waiting for the inbound TriShaw to wear headgear on the ASP in the usual 30-40 kt wind. So I had great delight, as S/L Air and SFSO, in giving him a polite chat about FOD awareness.
Keep idiots away from aeroplanes - please!
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'guards cant sit down on their duty'
Have I missed something?? Should you be sat down on duty?? (Assuming you're not in the 'guardtent' as the guard commander that is).
Battle bowler at the ready, waiting for the incoming!!!
Have I missed something?? Should you be sat down on duty?? (Assuming you're not in the 'guardtent' as the guard commander that is).
Battle bowler at the ready, waiting for the incoming!!!
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well, assuming that you might have been to basra, the guards on gate duty close to living area dont really have too much to do, to say the least! so generally, one would stand, one sit.... but now both have to stand, full kit and of course head dress,not forgetting to brace and pass the time of day with officers... and you HAVE to walk up the path now and not on the road that has been good since we have been there.... new rule.
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"what is happenening in this place?too much attention being paid to making up new rules and getting your name known for doing so, and not enough attention paid to more pressing matters.. i just think that the whole balance of priorities is so wrong".
So what do you suggest then???
Surely the whole point of being on guard, wherever you are, is to remain alert and spookily.....guard the place. You must see that!
Don't you think the bad guys consider 'Time spent in recce is never wasted?' Surely a target with 1 guy sat around is likely to be an easier target than one with 2 alert peeps on guard fully prepared for any eventuality? Even passing the time of day???
Chin strap on bowler tightened up!!
So what do you suggest then???
Surely the whole point of being on guard, wherever you are, is to remain alert and spookily.....guard the place. You must see that!
Don't you think the bad guys consider 'Time spent in recce is never wasted?' Surely a target with 1 guy sat around is likely to be an easier target than one with 2 alert peeps on guard fully prepared for any eventuality? Even passing the time of day???
Chin strap on bowler tightened up!!
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GMalf
I would like to see you stand up on guard for 12-24 hrs straight in the Basra heat, paying compliments to every army HQ a*****e in his personal airconned LR Disco driving the 200m to lunch, all this between 24 hr shifts on the line. Obviously, all whilst wearing full webbing.
The army are trained to man VCP's and shoot people. My techies are trained to fix a/c and I would rather they were rested and fit to do their job.
I would like to see you stand up on guard for 12-24 hrs straight in the Basra heat, paying compliments to every army HQ a*****e in his personal airconned LR Disco driving the 200m to lunch, all this between 24 hr shifts on the line. Obviously, all whilst wearing full webbing.
The army are trained to man VCP's and shoot people. My techies are trained to fix a/c and I would rather they were rested and fit to do their job.
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I get the feeling this is more of an Army v RAF issue as opposed to whether you should be alert on guard or not. Try putting more blokes on guard, that might work, it's a bit of a cunning plan, but you never know. Don't tell me you haven't got enough peeps.....
The chaps in DPM generally seem to cope, why not you?
It's a genuine question, NOT a wind up.
Strap ever tighter.....
The chaps in DPM generally seem to cope, why not you?
It's a genuine question, NOT a wind up.
Strap ever tighter.....
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Couldn't agree more P-T-G! As somebody who regularly operates out there I would rather my groundcrew are as rested as they can be. I don't know about other fleets but our guys work incredibly hard in pretty unpleasant temps. In answer to your question Governor we generally have enough techies for 2 x 12 hr shifts and that is it, and they work damn hard for the whole shift. Then they rest,eat etc. and are back on. There are NO spare bods for VCP etc. The lives of my crew are in their hands, turning them into part time soldiers is dangerous and may be hazardous to my health in the long run.
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d-69,
I can accept that, so why are they there then? Do you have peeps dressed in the wrong rank? Not enough balls to say no? The biggest problem we face is we always MAKE it work, instead of saying NO.....WE CANNOT do that job with this level of manpower. When will we ever learn???
Strap still secure....
I can accept that, so why are they there then? Do you have peeps dressed in the wrong rank? Not enough balls to say no? The biggest problem we face is we always MAKE it work, instead of saying NO.....WE CANNOT do that job with this level of manpower. When will we ever learn???
Strap still secure....
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A lot of hot air here from people who dont seem to have been to the desert much recently.
We could have more people on guard, we could get them from the bottomless pit of manpower we have back in the uk. The aircrew officers could all do guard, obviously in their rest periods, because we all have nothing better to do.
There are a lot of guys who have been doing long periods of time away in the desert for a few years now, and it has changed big style out there. The whole place is being turned into a UK style camp, with SRO's, mess rules, and bucket loads of needless trivia - eg you cannot wear sunglasses on your head in the mess tent.
The army seem to cope quite well, because it is their job. We should be allowed to get on with ours.
We could have more people on guard, we could get them from the bottomless pit of manpower we have back in the uk. The aircrew officers could all do guard, obviously in their rest periods, because we all have nothing better to do.
There are a lot of guys who have been doing long periods of time away in the desert for a few years now, and it has changed big style out there. The whole place is being turned into a UK style camp, with SRO's, mess rules, and bucket loads of needless trivia - eg you cannot wear sunglasses on your head in the mess tent.
The army seem to cope quite well, because it is their job. We should be allowed to get on with ours.
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Tell you what. Why don't you…
A. Either stop whinging behind an anonymous title and go and stand up for you and your kin, by talking face to face with someone, rather than bleating on the internet, hoping a grown up will sort out the problems for you.
Or
B. Accept that being disciplined, not presenting yourself as an easy target whilst on guard, or getting pi**ed in a operational environment is part of all military life, not just the Army.
Who knows, perhaps the perceived anal way of doing business is a tried and tested way of keeping people alive. Just a thought.
A. Either stop whinging behind an anonymous title and go and stand up for you and your kin, by talking face to face with someone, rather than bleating on the internet, hoping a grown up will sort out the problems for you.
Or
B. Accept that being disciplined, not presenting yourself as an easy target whilst on guard, or getting pi**ed in a operational environment is part of all military life, not just the Army.
Who knows, perhaps the perceived anal way of doing business is a tried and tested way of keeping people alive. Just a thought.
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On the Psychology of Military Incompetence.
Chapter 16, entitled "Bullsh!t", covers this wonderfully. It is more important that the job is done properly than you look good doing it. Sideburns, sunglasses, wearing of headdress, not supplying chairs (and, more importantly, shade) for guards and having the guard "brace up/firm up" are endemic of the "bull**** ethos" which many in the military (NOT just the Army) fall prey to.
Operational effectiveness must be emphasised over looking "good" in the eyes of one's superiors.
Chapter 16, entitled "Bullsh!t", covers this wonderfully. It is more important that the job is done properly than you look good doing it. Sideburns, sunglasses, wearing of headdress, not supplying chairs (and, more importantly, shade) for guards and having the guard "brace up/firm up" are endemic of the "bull**** ethos" which many in the military (NOT just the Army) fall prey to.
Operational effectiveness must be emphasised over looking "good" in the eyes of one's superiors.
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MossPigs,
A. As aircrew, our level of representation is desperately inadequate when it comes to facing down the policy makers out there. The upper echelons simply do not understand, let alone seem to care about our various concerns and grievances. I think truckiebloke's original post is a venting of frustration rather than a call to grown ups to sort out the problems. I for one have complete sympathy with him!
B. There is grown up discipline and there is Army discipline. The RAF have currently survived without loss to enemy action in Basra just fine for the last 2 years without the threat of 1021s for not wearing headress hanging over them!
Rules are for the guidance of wise men……..
A. As aircrew, our level of representation is desperately inadequate when it comes to facing down the policy makers out there. The upper echelons simply do not understand, let alone seem to care about our various concerns and grievances. I think truckiebloke's original post is a venting of frustration rather than a call to grown ups to sort out the problems. I for one have complete sympathy with him!
B. There is grown up discipline and there is Army discipline. The RAF have currently survived without loss to enemy action in Basra just fine for the last 2 years without the threat of 1021s for not wearing headress hanging over them!
Rules are for the guidance of wise men……..
Last edited by Prop-Ed; 10th Jan 2005 at 16:31.
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I have to confess a sneaking sympathy for the complaints on this thread. Good order and discipline is a necessary component of military life and unavoidable, but there is often a tendency to overpromote this when all else is going to r@t**** on the grounds that sorting real problems costs money but discipline costs nothing. It is this juxtaposition that p!ssed me off the most whilst in a blue suit - the emphasis on minor detail and the wilful ignorance of major problems. So I handed my kit back in and am now a happy civvie! 
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A novel suggestion I know, but what about RAF Regiment/RAF Police to guard the gate.
I'm standing by for the arguments from Rockapes and Snowdrops stating they are far too war-like or busy rifling through baggage to do anything remotely operational, but it is no more out of trade than an aircraft maintainer doing it.
Once again this is not a wind-up, I'm just curious.......
I'm standing by for the arguments from Rockapes and Snowdrops stating they are far too war-like or busy rifling through baggage to do anything remotely operational, but it is no more out of trade than an aircraft maintainer doing it.
Once again this is not a wind-up, I'm just curious.......
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Nothing new under the sun. As BEags says a carbon copy of the goings-on at RAF Mount Pleasant in 86/87, 'normalisation,' bring regular uniform, salute in corridors etc. Did it improve morale? Did it improve efficiency? Or did it boost the egos of CBFFI and his chums (Army both times)
I remember a letter posted to RAF Pravda during the first gulf from some SWO complaining the linies and plumbers in a photo feature looked 'unmilitary' because they mixed and matched clothing to suit the conditions - some 'old boy' wrote in to say he'd been SENGO on one of the Desert Airforce squadrons back in 1943, and his guys looked like pirates too – and no-one give a t*ss as long as the job got done.
RAF discipline and the Army type are totally different by the very nature of the services, don't confuse the lack of the niceties of the second with a lack of professionalism.
Edited to compliment Lee Jung on the perceptiveness of his/her post - but why stop there? Why not get the army to perform one of their primary roles?
I remember a letter posted to RAF Pravda during the first gulf from some SWO complaining the linies and plumbers in a photo feature looked 'unmilitary' because they mixed and matched clothing to suit the conditions - some 'old boy' wrote in to say he'd been SENGO on one of the Desert Airforce squadrons back in 1943, and his guys looked like pirates too – and no-one give a t*ss as long as the job got done.
RAF discipline and the Army type are totally different by the very nature of the services, don't confuse the lack of the niceties of the second with a lack of professionalism.
Edited to compliment Lee Jung on the perceptiveness of his/her post - but why stop there? Why not get the army to perform one of their primary roles?
Champagne anyone...?
Not getting pissed in an operational environment??? Part of military life?? Which military??
Can I be excused dets with Mosspigs please?
Remember kids: hats on, shirts tucked in and no running with scissors!
Can I be excused dets with Mosspigs please?
Remember kids: hats on, shirts tucked in and no running with scissors!