raf becoming army!
So who is going to the Guarding? Every arm of the services are down to the bare bones, do you really think if the Army had the man power they would give your guys these jobs?
Bear in mind that while you are on guard "inside" the wire your "Rocks" or Army guys are outside and not able to do both.
FWIW the Junglie maintainers, service the aircraft and protect the locations, the pilots and crewman all pitch in too.
Just put it down to overstretch like the rest of us and get on with it. Can't see things changing.
Bear in mind that while you are on guard "inside" the wire your "Rocks" or Army guys are outside and not able to do both.
FWIW the Junglie maintainers, service the aircraft and protect the locations, the pilots and crewman all pitch in too.
Just put it down to overstretch like the rest of us and get on with it. Can't see things changing.
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Perhps if we limited ourselves to the operations we said we would under Options for Change, then we could afford the manpower to do it properly.
A man cannot guard/fix/sleep all at the same time.
In the style of T Blair, the three main problems are:
OVERSTRETCH, OVERSTRETCH, OVERSTRETCH.
A man cannot guard/fix/sleep all at the same time.
In the style of T Blair, the three main problems are:
OVERSTRETCH, OVERSTRETCH, OVERSTRETCH.
A Good headin said:
Well that's porked the credibility of that then... He went on:
Apart from being terrifyingly simplistic, it's a stupid generalisation. The arguments put forward by those disappointed with the so-called 'man-management' on dets are all no brainers. You can't compromise flight safety for whatever reason. The only astute observation comes at the end - yup, it's time to go. 
The CAS and every senior officer I know has stated "Warfighter first,Specialist second"
That applies to all ranks/branch/trade. Sorry techies,aircrew,rocks,pigs,stackers,squippers,air tragic,scopies etc. If you don't like this concept, then its time to leave
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Time to leave?
AGH,
I don't think it's the concept of having a 'war' role and mucking in on deployed ops that is the problem. What is (IMHO) going to drive people out is the relentless nature of deployed ops, coupled with reduced quality of life back in the UK and a lack of a career path for those that valued the variety of different jobs rather than same job, different location.
All this forward and depth stuff is ok, but where are people going to get the breadth of experience in the future to prepare them for more senior management (branch or trade)? The IPT's are also having to cut back their military manpower but still need the jobs done and are likely to go out to contractors to do this. It is difficult to recruit civil servantsto do the jobs because of salary and expereince needed but contractor support is a different cost - more expensive, but different budget.
Therefore, in 5 - 10 years time there will be no depth in the knowledge of 'the management', and that can't be good.
sw
That applies to all ranks/branch/trade. Sorry techies,aircrew,rocks,pigs,stackers,squippers,air tragic,scopies etc. If you don't like this concept, then its time to leave
All this forward and depth stuff is ok, but where are people going to get the breadth of experience in the future to prepare them for more senior management (branch or trade)? The IPT's are also having to cut back their military manpower but still need the jobs done and are likely to go out to contractors to do this. It is difficult to recruit civil servantsto do the jobs because of salary and expereince needed but contractor support is a different cost - more expensive, but different budget.
Therefore, in 5 - 10 years time there will be no depth in the knowledge of 'the management', and that can't be good.
sw
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Time to go? Yep! That's what drove me out at the end of my first twelve. I didn't mind the daily grind down on the flight line, the sixty hour week keeping our aircraft airborne (safely) The CDS even called up a round in the squadron bar for us, when he noticed the same guys seeing him in as saw him out, in the wee small hours of a Sunday morning. Top man, he was.
No, it was the crappy jobs like Orderly Sergeant (SHQ Clerical staff were excused, as were squadron SNCO aircrew) or Gate Guard Commander (no weapons - we'd beat them to death with a rolled up copy of Station Standing Orders) that made me wonder what the fcuk I was doing in my blue suit.
Now I'm not averse to doing my share, but on a station with an establishment of nearly a thousand, were there really only fifty SNCOs on the unit to do "Station Duties"? How did (do they still?)the shiny-arses get away with calling their daily jobs "Station Duties"? I suppose fixing helicopters wasn't anything to do with the Station's role...
So, if they really wanted me to guard the gate, I'd have appreciated a stack of sandbags to hide behind, with a heavy machine gun or two, perhaps even an armoured vehicle with a 20 mm on top. Looking mean and military might have discouraged anyone with evil intent from trying to get onto the unit. Otherwise, I'm quite content out here in my jungle paradise, surrounded by the communist hordes, thank you.
No, it was the crappy jobs like Orderly Sergeant (SHQ Clerical staff were excused, as were squadron SNCO aircrew) or Gate Guard Commander (no weapons - we'd beat them to death with a rolled up copy of Station Standing Orders) that made me wonder what the fcuk I was doing in my blue suit.
Now I'm not averse to doing my share, but on a station with an establishment of nearly a thousand, were there really only fifty SNCOs on the unit to do "Station Duties"? How did (do they still?)the shiny-arses get away with calling their daily jobs "Station Duties"? I suppose fixing helicopters wasn't anything to do with the Station's role...
So, if they really wanted me to guard the gate, I'd have appreciated a stack of sandbags to hide behind, with a heavy machine gun or two, perhaps even an armoured vehicle with a 20 mm on top. Looking mean and military might have discouraged anyone with evil intent from trying to get onto the unit. Otherwise, I'm quite content out here in my jungle paradise, surrounded by the communist hordes, thank you.
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not forgetting to brace and pass the time of day with officers...
As for the flight saftey implications of tradesmen doing guards I fully agree, but its not just 'techies' that can cause flight safety problems if they do their job wrong whilst tired. Suppliers, ATC, Caterers and many others all have their part to play.
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Too right. We are once again our own worst enemies, and have always just got on with it, no matter how many extra burdens are added to our primary role.
Trouble is, we really do seem to have reached the bottom of the barrel. You only have to see that we now deploy reserves regularly - permanently even - because we do not have enough regular forces.
Any of the top brass looked up the definition of 'reserve'?
Wonder how long before they head off to Marshalls and get some reserve aircraft techies?
Or pop along to the AA for some reserve MT fitters?
Maybe tap up BP for some of their tanker drivers?
I'm paid a lot of money to do my job, and do it well. Chipping away at my morale, concentration and self respect by belittling my skills does not help.
Nor does it help recruit and keep the next generation.
Trouble is, we really do seem to have reached the bottom of the barrel. You only have to see that we now deploy reserves regularly - permanently even - because we do not have enough regular forces.
Any of the top brass looked up the definition of 'reserve'?
Wonder how long before they head off to Marshalls and get some reserve aircraft techies?
Or pop along to the AA for some reserve MT fitters?
Maybe tap up BP for some of their tanker drivers?
I'm paid a lot of money to do my job, and do it well. Chipping away at my morale, concentration and self respect by belittling my skills does not help.
Nor does it help recruit and keep the next generation.
Gents welcome to the real world, this is what the Army and Navy have had to put up with for years. your manning levels have always been high (large numbers of Sp staff and Engineers on deployments). Now your numbers are reducing its all hands to the pumps.
Sorry guys "live with it or leave seems to be the hierachy 's answer"
Sorry guys "live with it or leave seems to be the hierachy 's answer"
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raf becoming army
Gents
I was a bit full on during my earlier post but make no apologies for my opinions.
However the point I am making is, whether you like it or not, we are in the military and therefore may have to carry out tasks outside of our trade. This includes guarding places, at home and abroad.
Exleckie.
Producer guards dont get tired, as their time on stag is included in the normal shift pattern, Guins on Regt Sqn's have done it for years, succesfully.
I agree with the post with ref to "exempt duties" personnel. I have never been on that position, I have always carried out Sqn and Station duties. Worse than that IMHO are the oxygen theives exempt OOA. In my trade at the moment only 48% of my rank are eligible for deployment!
I would also hazard a guess that most (not all) of the whinging on this thread come from people who don't do full length OOA tours, tend to use well found bases and live in hotels.
(CBA and Kevlar on)
I was a bit full on during my earlier post but make no apologies for my opinions.
However the point I am making is, whether you like it or not, we are in the military and therefore may have to carry out tasks outside of our trade. This includes guarding places, at home and abroad.
Exleckie.
Producer guards dont get tired, as their time on stag is included in the normal shift pattern, Guins on Regt Sqn's have done it for years, succesfully.
I agree with the post with ref to "exempt duties" personnel. I have never been on that position, I have always carried out Sqn and Station duties. Worse than that IMHO are the oxygen theives exempt OOA. In my trade at the moment only 48% of my rank are eligible for deployment!
I would also hazard a guess that most (not all) of the whinging on this thread come from people who don't do full length OOA tours, tend to use well found bases and live in hotels.
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I would also hazard a guess that most (not all) of the whinging on this thread come from people who don't do full length OOA tours, tend to use well found bases and live in hotels.
I never had the benefit of a 'well found' base to operate from, never had the advantage of RAF Regt personnel to assist if not do all the guarding for us and as for hotels, who wants a load of lads that stink of AVTUR wandering through their lobby?
As for
Gents welcome to the real world, this is what the Army and Navy have had to put up with for years. your manning levels have always been high (large numbers of Sp staff and Engineers on deployments). Now your numbers are reducing its all hands to the pumps.
Unlike the Army (and the Navy to a lesser extent) the RAF does not have a large amount of redundancy in the system to make up for personnel losses, be that through death, injury or secondment to non-primary duties.
Here's an example relevant to me.
In the Army if a deployed logistics base is being set up the RLC will send out fuels specialists, supply controllers, supply specialists, plant ops and many others whereas in the RAF many of those RLC tasks can be carried out by one Supplier, so thats all we send. As a Supplier I can work in many of the 'parts' that the RLC has but an equivalent RLC storeman can only do part of my trade.
I don't intend for this to be an 'us and them' comment (I'm ex-RGJ myself) but rather I post it to show its not al balck and white. We are different branches of the forces for a reason and we operate in different ways. The sooner we all realise this and stop trying to make every the same (green?) the better
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When were you on the wing?
I was at Lipa in 98 and I know what you mean about the Pet Ops guys. There was two of us to do tankers and helo's 24/7 (it was a break when winter came and there was no night flying) The Army had at least 18 to do tankers only!
However my point is that a lot of the whining in this thread come's from people who don't (due to the nature of their jobs) have to do the kind of thing we constantly get on with.
I've also recently spent 4 years with the Regt during which you not only do your job, but defend yourself as well (hence producer guards)
Truckie bloke, do you have to do a guard stint in Basra?
When were you on the wing?
I was at Lipa in 98 and I know what you mean about the Pet Ops guys. There was two of us to do tankers and helo's 24/7 (it was a break when winter came and there was no night flying) The Army had at least 18 to do tankers only!
However my point is that a lot of the whining in this thread come's from people who don't (due to the nature of their jobs) have to do the kind of thing we constantly get on with.
I've also recently spent 4 years with the Regt during which you not only do your job, but defend yourself as well (hence producer guards)
Truckie bloke, do you have to do a guard stint in Basra?
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I was at Lipa in 98 and I know what you mean about the Pet Ops guys.
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Its amazing every time this thread turns a corner we have a new p*****g contest. Now it's who stayed in the best/worst hotels or deployed locations.
Some facts:
1. The RAF is about flying aeroplanes and the support associated with that. No flying = No need for RAF. Therefore our primary roles should be easily defined (as war fighters). Its many many years since war fighting was restricted to shooting each other on the ground.
2. Everyone in the RAF has a primary trade role in support of the above.
3. However, everyone should provide support to the additional duties, like guard etc both at home and deployed. Its a fact of life.
4. This must be done whilst maintaining good flight safety practices. This applys to all trades.
5. We are overstretched and there is a potential for a human failing to cause a major flight safety problem. To manage the current tasking levels more people are needed.
All this has little to do with who we think we are, how important we think we are or where we think we fit in. It has a lot to do with preventing a smoking hole in the ground!! We all likely to have to fly at some point. Think on it.
Some facts:
1. The RAF is about flying aeroplanes and the support associated with that. No flying = No need for RAF. Therefore our primary roles should be easily defined (as war fighters). Its many many years since war fighting was restricted to shooting each other on the ground.
2. Everyone in the RAF has a primary trade role in support of the above.
3. However, everyone should provide support to the additional duties, like guard etc both at home and deployed. Its a fact of life.
4. This must be done whilst maintaining good flight safety practices. This applys to all trades.
5. We are overstretched and there is a potential for a human failing to cause a major flight safety problem. To manage the current tasking levels more people are needed.
All this has little to do with who we think we are, how important we think we are or where we think we fit in. It has a lot to do with preventing a smoking hole in the ground!! We all likely to have to fly at some point. Think on it.
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Techie
I agree with you totally, and I think one of my earlier posts reflected the same sentiments.
But why, oh why, did you have to stop those two hoarders swapping stories about where they've stacked blankets and fluffed duvets ?
Maybe they could start their own thread:
"WORST location you've ever refused to issue kit, because someone else might need it........"
"BEST location you've ever refused to issue kit, because someone else might need it........"
Safety_Helmut
I agree with you totally, and I think one of my earlier posts reflected the same sentiments.
But why, oh why, did you have to stop those two hoarders swapping stories about where they've stacked blankets and fluffed duvets ?
Maybe they could start their own thread:
"WORST location you've ever refused to issue kit, because someone else might need it........"
"BEST location you've ever refused to issue kit, because someone else might need it........"
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But why, oh why, did you have to stop those two hoarders swapping stories about where they've stacked blankets and fluffed duvets ?
Meooow.
Blankets are a bit more of an MOB thing really and I wouldn't know much about that.
