raf becoming army!
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,132
Received 28 Likes
on
17 Posts
And like buses you wait for ages then 2 of them come together.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Lincolnshire
Posts: 39
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Glum
Yes but what fun. We members of the logistics trade are happy to be the butt of a slagging, always remember, you can always buy your own batteries for your jack stereo/kids toys etc Hee Hee (chuckles maniacally into the dusk)
Yes but what fun. We members of the logistics trade are happy to be the butt of a slagging, always remember, you can always buy your own batteries for your jack stereo/kids toys etc Hee Hee (chuckles maniacally into the dusk)
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,132
Received 28 Likes
on
17 Posts
And yet another thread descends into a slanging match...
Bless
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: wilts
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
stax.... not done guard in basra.. once again the issue of flight safety comes into play i think... not sure if its best to have the front enders up til late guarding, then up flying too... also, after spending so long training, with so much cost involved, is it the most efficient thing to do?
no trade that contributes to gettting the a/c in the air should do guard. To not insult anyone( i hope) there are those of us who are good at flying/engineering/ATC etc and those of us with a few less brain cells (i.e the army guys who ripped the terminal apart,shi***d everywhere, ripped up lights etc) who can do guard...
however, because none of our bosses have the balls to say different, the techies,amongst others are shafted to do a duty that stretches us BEYOND the limit and it will only be a matter of time before an accident occurs which is directly linked to this.
no trade that contributes to gettting the a/c in the air should do guard. To not insult anyone( i hope) there are those of us who are good at flying/engineering/ATC etc and those of us with a few less brain cells (i.e the army guys who ripped the terminal apart,shi***d everywhere, ripped up lights etc) who can do guard...
however, because none of our bosses have the balls to say different, the techies,amongst others are shafted to do a duty that stretches us BEYOND the limit and it will only be a matter of time before an accident occurs which is directly linked to this.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,132
Received 28 Likes
on
17 Posts
no trade that contributes to getting the a/c in the air should do guard.
I agree that stick jockeys and the talking ballast shouldn't be doing guards, as you say, there is a hell of a lot of money spent every year making you good for flying not for guarding, but everyone else should take their turn.
The words of Winston Churchill all those years ago are as apt now as they were when he said them. We may be tradesmen first but when called upon we must be prepared to defend our 'home'. The days of the Cold War "let someone else do the running around, I'm staying in my air conditioned HAS" are long gone, wake up folks.
ps, As for the looking down your collective noses at Infantry types just remember techies folk, they get paid exactly the same as you for a reason. Whilst it may not be as technically demanding as removing a black box to send back to BAe its a damn sight more dangerous.
THS, Ex-RGJ and current socks and shirt maestro.
TAC Int Bloke
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I love it when that old quote rears it's ugly head. the user conveniently forgetting time and subject. Do I have to give a list of 'stupid' Chirchillian quotes? I believe it was made before the Regiment was formed......and what was the purpose of the formation of the Regiment? Couldn't be airfield defence could it?
I much prefer a Gp Cpt of my acquaintance saying 'I will NOT have my people's time wasted doing a job that the army are more suited to'. Unfortunately she ended up PVRing because no-one higher up the food chain would listen
I much prefer a Gp Cpt of my acquaintance saying 'I will NOT have my people's time wasted doing a job that the army are more suited to'. Unfortunately she ended up PVRing because no-one higher up the food chain would listen
Join Date: Oct 2002
Location: uk
Posts: 277
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
people just dont get this do they! seems like most have managed to agree that aircrew shouldnt be doing guard, fantastic. taking it the next step and saying that techies shouldnt be guarding either seems to be just too much for some to comprehend however.
techie numbers are very limited with guys doing multiple dets per year, often in total more than the 3/4 months that other RAF do. the result is that we have the absolute min out in theatre. now that doesnt mean the min to do techie stuff plus naff station secondary duties, it means the bare min to be able to cover the shifts for the ops that we carry out. when we take these guys and force them to do extra duties such as guarding it reduces their rest periods so that they are often fatigued beyond a satisfactory level. this leads to flight safety implications, of which many it seems are unable to understand.
now i understand that we have to make do with what we have which in this case is limited numbers. what we should be doing is applying our people in a sensible manner that takes into account the end result of putting extra burden on our troops. heres a thought, instead of guard being divvied out equally amongst all people on camp we instead hand it out according to what other jobs they have to do. there are many trades out at basrah that work 9-5 jobs in air con environments. these people should be taking on the extra duties to free up trades such as technicians. the 9-5 types are not terribly stressed when doing their primary duty and so i would suggest they can better absorb a bit of fatigue. our techies primary duty involves working outside in temps anywhere up to 55-60c and so spend their det always outside and always fatigued. why cant people see that this is not a sensible way to operate when we are dealing with very complicated machines that require the maintainers to be on top of their game.
as for all the 'harden up' comments, well what do you say. these people are either idiots, which i doubt as in general our forces are pretty good thinkers, or they have become institutionalised by operating in crappy conditions for so long. everyone knows that there are always those worse off, and to those in the army our moaning on here must look quite petty. however, what is wrong with trying to improve your lot? do we have to keep operating in a backward way because that is the way it has always been done? just because one service operates in a certain way doesn't make it the best way for all services to operate. why cant those in different situations look on others who are trying to improve themselves as an impetus to improve their conditions as well?
techie numbers are very limited with guys doing multiple dets per year, often in total more than the 3/4 months that other RAF do. the result is that we have the absolute min out in theatre. now that doesnt mean the min to do techie stuff plus naff station secondary duties, it means the bare min to be able to cover the shifts for the ops that we carry out. when we take these guys and force them to do extra duties such as guarding it reduces their rest periods so that they are often fatigued beyond a satisfactory level. this leads to flight safety implications, of which many it seems are unable to understand.
now i understand that we have to make do with what we have which in this case is limited numbers. what we should be doing is applying our people in a sensible manner that takes into account the end result of putting extra burden on our troops. heres a thought, instead of guard being divvied out equally amongst all people on camp we instead hand it out according to what other jobs they have to do. there are many trades out at basrah that work 9-5 jobs in air con environments. these people should be taking on the extra duties to free up trades such as technicians. the 9-5 types are not terribly stressed when doing their primary duty and so i would suggest they can better absorb a bit of fatigue. our techies primary duty involves working outside in temps anywhere up to 55-60c and so spend their det always outside and always fatigued. why cant people see that this is not a sensible way to operate when we are dealing with very complicated machines that require the maintainers to be on top of their game.
as for all the 'harden up' comments, well what do you say. these people are either idiots, which i doubt as in general our forces are pretty good thinkers, or they have become institutionalised by operating in crappy conditions for so long. everyone knows that there are always those worse off, and to those in the army our moaning on here must look quite petty. however, what is wrong with trying to improve your lot? do we have to keep operating in a backward way because that is the way it has always been done? just because one service operates in a certain way doesn't make it the best way for all services to operate. why cant those in different situations look on others who are trying to improve themselves as an impetus to improve their conditions as well?
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,132
Received 28 Likes
on
17 Posts
I much prefer a Gp Cpt of my acquaintance saying 'I will NOT have my people's time wasted doing a job that the army are more suited to'
Gees, you'd think that standing on a gate would be a piece of p!ss to a bunch of highly trained RAF types, especially as those lowly bullet catchers can do it.
So what 'that' Churchill quote was made in a time when the hun was coming over the channel, its a relevant today as it ever was.
Unless you've had you head somewhere near that sandwich you ate earlier you'll know that there are currently less troops in Iraq than there is in NI at the mo, an apparently peaceful place if the government is to be believed. On top of this Iraq is a much larger place than NI, even the little bit we control (you can check in your Ladybird big book of the world if you want). So with this small number of Army troops patrolling the towns, clearing old minefields, protecting convoys, winning hearts and minds and God knows how many other tasks where do you propose the MoD gets these extra squaddies from to guard us whilst we take a dunk in the plunge pool and have a few beers?
I'm off to Basrah in the near future and have no problem with going on the gate even though I'm also going to be on shift and having to do convoy work, I have to do the gate in the UK (as do techies) so whats the problem? Yes I agree that the tempo of work is a higher in Iraq but hey, thats why you get the X-factor and why you get a nice little bit of tin on your return to hang on you uniform next to the QGJM.
I hate to break it to people but you are a member of the Armed Forces, not a uniformed extension of the civil service. Get a grip or get out.
And no, before anyone says it, I'm not some sort of NATO potato who loves guard, I'd rather not do it but in the short term nothing is going to change, not until some jelly spined folk with all the scrambled egg on their hats say no to the Whitehall Warriors. I just get on with it, a strange concept I know but hey, us stackers are used to being shat on by everyone, eventually you get used to it.
Thread Starter
Join Date: Oct 2004
Location: wilts
Posts: 116
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
yes , helpful stacker that is exactly the point!! get some extra guys out to do the gate, so those that are involved in getting a/c into the air (yes, if you like that does mean everyone,if we all want to have a cuddle) can do their job that they are trained for.
Maybe when you go out there, you will see the reality. Nobody is saying that the army dont do a good job patrolling etc, but there are those that are directly linked to flying that are being affected by the multiple shifts and heat etc..
There are guys out there in life designed to do guarding, and there are those who are skilled in other ways... whats so wrong about that?
juliet has it spot on.
Maybe when you go out there, you will see the reality. Nobody is saying that the army dont do a good job patrolling etc, but there are those that are directly linked to flying that are being affected by the multiple shifts and heat etc..
There are guys out there in life designed to do guarding, and there are those who are skilled in other ways... whats so wrong about that?
juliet has it spot on.
Join Date: Apr 2005
Location: Temporarily missing from the Joe Louis Arena
Posts: 2,132
Received 28 Likes
on
17 Posts
But it doesn't work like that truckiebloke (as much as I'd like it too).
When Mr Junior Defence Minster visits the troops in theatre to see how things are going we are our own worst enemies. The world smells of fresh paint and its "every things great Sir, but could we have more money", whilst all the time tired troops are running around covering over the cracks. We need leaders who will stand up to the Civil Service and say "no, it won't happen", but until that time Mr Junior Defence Minister is going to keep saying "you managed alright last time with 6 lads to run a sqn and do guard".
We need leaders with balls, not one eye on the pension.
When Mr Junior Defence Minster visits the troops in theatre to see how things are going we are our own worst enemies. The world smells of fresh paint and its "every things great Sir, but could we have more money", whilst all the time tired troops are running around covering over the cracks. We need leaders who will stand up to the Civil Service and say "no, it won't happen", but until that time Mr Junior Defence Minister is going to keep saying "you managed alright last time with 6 lads to run a sqn and do guard".
We need leaders with balls, not one eye on the pension.
TAC Int Bloke
Join Date: Nov 2002
Location: UK
Posts: 975
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So what 'that' Churchill quote was made in a time when the hun was coming over the channel, its a relevant today as it ever was.
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: On the outside looking in
Posts: 542
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
THS,
One of the biggest dangers in life is when the hazardous becomes the norm and everyone 'just gets on with it'. Perceptions of risk fade, everyone becomes jaded and management 'just get on with it'. As I said before, I don't think people object to mucking in, it's the piling on of pressure whilst reducing resources that seeps into everything. eg cut manpower - those that are left 'just get on with it' and cope under the additional stress, 'oh look, they didn't need that much manpower in the first place, so obviously the squealing was fake, lets take some more'. again 'just get on with it', back round the circle until eventually 'boom'
Out of interest, are many CONDORs coming out these days (or does nobody have time to raise one?
)
sw
I'd rather not do it but in the short term nothing is going to change, not until some jelly spined folk with all the scrambled egg on their hats say no to the Whitehall Warriors. I just get on with it
Out of interest, are many CONDORs coming out these days (or does nobody have time to raise one?
)sw
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: UK
Posts: 58
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Canary Boy said
My comments while being simplistic were in general making a valid point and aimed at the masses as well as the military. I wholeheartedly agree that flight safety should NEVER be comprimised. Indeed, you will find that it is not just out in the sand this is happening but also closer to home.
There are a number of Stations in the UK where, due to cutbacks, people are working their butts off to cover for people who are deployed. I know of RAF air traffickers (at fast jet units) who work shift for 12 days in a row.
It's an accident waiting to happen and unless the individuals concerned and their SATCOS say 'no sir we can't fly anymore because we are knackered' then someone will die. SATCOs throughout the RAF appear to lack the balls to stand up and say 'hey my team are whacked sir'. This must also apply across the air force.
I would suggest that if you get a chance to talk to the CAS/CDS/AOC/ or any visiting MP, for God's sake give them the truth, because the officers above you are not.
Maybe as The Helpful Stacker says
Apart from being terrifyingly simplistic, it's a stupid generalisation. The arguments put forward by those disappointed with the so-called 'man-management' on dets are all no brainers. You can't compromise flight safety for whatever reason. The only astute observation comes at the end - yup, it's time to go.
There are a number of Stations in the UK where, due to cutbacks, people are working their butts off to cover for people who are deployed. I know of RAF air traffickers (at fast jet units) who work shift for 12 days in a row.
It's an accident waiting to happen and unless the individuals concerned and their SATCOS say 'no sir we can't fly anymore because we are knackered' then someone will die. SATCOs throughout the RAF appear to lack the balls to stand up and say 'hey my team are whacked sir'. This must also apply across the air force.
I would suggest that if you get a chance to talk to the CAS/CDS/AOC/ or any visiting MP, for God's sake give them the truth, because the officers above you are not.
Maybe as The Helpful Stacker says
We need leaders with balls, not one eye on the pension.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Earlier someone said they had done one day's pongo trainng, per year, for 18 years.
At school we did more than that. We did section in attack, section in defence etc. We learnt the composition of a platoon down to the number of bullets carried by each member - 30 rnds .303 and 2 x 28 rnd .303 for the Bren. Given a 30 man platoon we had 2,700 rnds. Sounds like nivarnah compared with what goes for ammo now.
We also learnt the defensive pattern, two sections forward, one rear, two plattoons forward, one rear etc. So much for 2 men on stag. At school even we had one on stag in each slit trench.
I learnt, and remembered, all that after just over a year before I transfered to the RAF cadets. We needed to pass the Army part 1 and 2 first!
We might be brilliant aviators but ground pounders? Not a prayer. I quite agree with that Captain earlier, run like hell.
At school we did more than that. We did section in attack, section in defence etc. We learnt the composition of a platoon down to the number of bullets carried by each member - 30 rnds .303 and 2 x 28 rnd .303 for the Bren. Given a 30 man platoon we had 2,700 rnds. Sounds like nivarnah compared with what goes for ammo now.
We also learnt the defensive pattern, two sections forward, one rear, two plattoons forward, one rear etc. So much for 2 men on stag. At school even we had one on stag in each slit trench.
I learnt, and remembered, all that after just over a year before I transfered to the RAF cadets. We needed to pass the Army part 1 and 2 first!
We might be brilliant aviators but ground pounders? Not a prayer. I quite agree with that Captain earlier, run like hell.
Short Blunt Shock
Join Date: Jul 2003
Location: UK
Posts: 631
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Some posters here seem to think that techies are being asked to do guard in Basrah just in their 'spare time' - this simply is not the case. A situation where a techie shift is an entire trade down due to poaching for guard is simply unacceptable - this occurred several times during the stints I did. So far (to my knowledge) an ac hasn't been grounded due to no sooties being available to fix an engine snag (for example), but it's bound to happen sooner or later.
So, who should be doing the guarding? It is noteworthy that a phone call from the DWO for a beer raid on accommodation summoned TEN coppers within 5 minutes. Go figure.
16B
So, who should be doing the guarding? It is noteworthy that a phone call from the DWO for a beer raid on accommodation summoned TEN coppers within 5 minutes. Go figure.
16B
Cunning Artificer
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: The spiritual home of DeHavilland
Age: 76
Posts: 3,127
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Ten Coppers?
So, now at last we know who guards the guards.
That brings up a good idea. While the techies are guarding the gate we could get a few coppers and a couple of infantrymen with time on their hands to pop down the flight line and give a hand with the less technical bits such as refuelling, towing, marshalling and the like. Maybe some pilots could lend a hand with the more technical bits.
No? I thought not. Every man to his own job, it seems... We just need more people.
Conscription? Now there's an idea. There isn't another election for a few years yet and Tony still has a workable majority. We could spin it easily.
So, now at last we know who guards the guards.
That brings up a good idea. While the techies are guarding the gate we could get a few coppers and a couple of infantrymen with time on their hands to pop down the flight line and give a hand with the less technical bits such as refuelling, towing, marshalling and the like. Maybe some pilots could lend a hand with the more technical bits.
No? I thought not. Every man to his own job, it seems... We just need more people.
Conscription? Now there's an idea. There isn't another election for a few years yet and Tony still has a workable majority. We could spin it easily.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Up North
Posts: 801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Unless you've had you head somewhere near that sandwich you ate earlier you'll know that there are currently less troops in Iraq than there is in NI at the mo, an apparently peaceful place if the government is to be believed. On top of this Iraq is a much larger place than NI, even the little bit we control (you can check in your Ladybird big book of the world if you want). So with this small number of Army troops patrolling the towns, clearing old minefields, protecting convoys, winning hearts and minds and God knows how many other tasks where do you propose the MoD gets these extra squaddies from to guard us whilst we take a dunk in the plunge pool and have a few beers.
A task should be properly resourced. If it can't be, the task should not be done. The command chain should have the moral courage to challenge the slipshod and head-in-sand attitude of the hierarchy. Someone with a couple (or more) blue-and-black rings should go into print on behalf of their troops.
Perhaps some regiments should not be scrapped? Perhaps the Iraq task should be handed over - at least in part? Political decisions are avoided whilst everyone pretends everything is all right, and the troops pick up the pieces.
I can say this with a pleasant sense of "detachment" (not that kind) on a beautiful sunny day in civviedom, with my blue suit mothballed for posterity! Am I sorry to have left?
