RAF Gan - Tsunami - RAF SH
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RAF Gan - Tsunami - RAF SH
Anyone know if Gan (as in ex-RAF) got a hiding?
Or why when in the absence of Road and Rail the RAF SH force does not already have a tent city in the Far East?
..or why DHFS with the Bell 412 Griffin and the best of the best (Excellence is their keyword) have not deployed to do a useful job, for if the RAF is so overboard with pilots as to be looking for redundancy then surely suspending flying training would be no big deal.
I would think that our historical links with the Maldives - Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and the Raj of India would have make our requisite contribution somewhat more than the millions that Jack Straw is bleating about. These people need action not money which itself is subject to massive corruption.
Now I`ll get back in my box, with my coat!
Or why when in the absence of Road and Rail the RAF SH force does not already have a tent city in the Far East?
..or why DHFS with the Bell 412 Griffin and the best of the best (Excellence is their keyword) have not deployed to do a useful job, for if the RAF is so overboard with pilots as to be looking for redundancy then surely suspending flying training would be no big deal.
I would think that our historical links with the Maldives - Ceylon (Sri Lanka) and the Raj of India would have make our requisite contribution somewhat more than the millions that Jack Straw is bleating about. These people need action not money which itself is subject to massive corruption.
Now I`ll get back in my box, with my coat!
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While the RAF is not overbourne with pilots, granted there are areas that carry a little excess. SH is certainly not one of them. Stopping training at DHFS would have huge knock on effects. Pulling all SH and Lynx out of NI would be a start though.
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There have been no reports of problems at Gan to date.
How do you envisage the SH getting there? All input has to be totally self-sufficient so as not to add more strain to the already vastly overloaded local infrastructure. Total self-sufficience means quite a large logistics tail and the ATF is already heavily tasked.
Deployment depends upon HN approval. Sri Lanka is often reticent about a foreign military presence and India has its own very large military that makes any input we would offer irrelevant. Witness the issue in the news about the offer of the Ghurkhas...
What most of these countries want (ie what they are asking for) is water / water purification, short term emergency food aid, medical supplies and expertise, forensic expertise, emergency shelters and (for the mid to long term) financial support for local infrastructure rebuilding.
How do you envisage the SH getting there? All input has to be totally self-sufficient so as not to add more strain to the already vastly overloaded local infrastructure. Total self-sufficience means quite a large logistics tail and the ATF is already heavily tasked.
Deployment depends upon HN approval. Sri Lanka is often reticent about a foreign military presence and India has its own very large military that makes any input we would offer irrelevant. Witness the issue in the news about the offer of the Ghurkhas...
What most of these countries want (ie what they are asking for) is water / water purification, short term emergency food aid, medical supplies and expertise, forensic expertise, emergency shelters and (for the mid to long term) financial support for local infrastructure rebuilding.
Champagne anyone...?
Places like Sri Lanka and the Maldives are after all the help they can get - they're not going to turn down any offers of helicopters or AT (The Indian Air Force puts us to shame anyway so point taken there). "Some" of the ATF is heavily tasked - the bit that does air-drop and ops on dirt strips doesn't seem to be.....
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Well said...
I would imagine a couple of days worth of one tonners would/could help....but hey that would be a proper job.
Strange that our lords n masters arent pushing for it....oh yes...my mistake....no gong on offer...tsk tsk
Vote with your feet....
I would imagine a couple of days worth of one tonners would/could help....but hey that would be a proper job.
Strange that our lords n masters arent pushing for it....oh yes...my mistake....no gong on offer...tsk tsk
Vote with your feet....
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Remember that the RAF do not own the DHFS Bell 412, they belong to the civilian company and the services pay for hours. I am sure the company would love to sell more time as long as someone paid for the ac to go out there. Before you suggest them 'doing it for charity mate!', they probably could not afford it with them only recently going into profit.
Gentleman Aviator
Exactly so jayteeto .
IIRC it was difficult enough getting support for floods in Shrewsbury from DHFS, so I would guess SE Asia would be a non-starter.
IIRC it was difficult enough getting support for floods in Shrewsbury from DHFS, so I would guess SE Asia would be a non-starter.
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Spot 4
Found something on Gan looking for info on places I vaguely knew (trasited as a kid on the way to Singapore many years ago). Its not much, but gives some indication of the level of damage.
http://www.tsunamimaldives.mv/?actio...&atl=L&isl=Gan
Ploz
Found something on Gan looking for info on places I vaguely knew (trasited as a kid on the way to Singapore many years ago). Its not much, but gives some indication of the level of damage.
http://www.tsunamimaldives.mv/?actio...&atl=L&isl=Gan
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seems to me that you have forgotten that the RAF would have no 4 star hotels left to operate from. Perhaps the Fleet Air Arm could help with their floating support. in my opinion Argus, (Primary Casualty Receiving Facility for you crabs), should have been deployed with a load of seaking Mk4 s on the 28th. great PR and maybe a chance to offer some real help!
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As an ex Gannite (74/75) I can recommend the excellent website run by Taff Small www.rafgan.co.uk which also has links to other Gan and Maldivian websites.
Having scanned most of the sites no damage at all to Gan
Luckily everyone was in the Marine Bar and the VC10 was TBN
Gan...not just a tropical Island...more a way of life
Having scanned most of the sites no damage at all to Gan
Luckily everyone was in the Marine Bar and the VC10 was TBN
Gan...not just a tropical Island...more a way of life
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Now we are feeling the frustrations of our lords and masters cuts I am afraid. There is simply not enough SH to go around, and this is no shock to anyone as they try and cuff their way through a very direct and honest NAO report that essentially said that unless they resourced more SH that UK Plc would simply not have enough SH capbility.
Forget PR, forget spin, forget all the periphery rubbish.....helicopters are needed and in large numbers. The cupboard is bare and we all know it. Golf Hopper, I totally agree with the ARGUS option, hospital and helicopters all in one - effect required at target end. Sadly what are we going to put on board or in Argus.....just observing PPRUNE and Happy Hour banter reveals that everyone is busy and deployed or planning on deploying in the very near future.
So, MoD Plc and all those officers in positions with influence stop trying to sweep the lack of SH under the carpet. Stop talking Air Manoeuvre and start talking a realistic language for todays real world and not one that doctrine is forcing you down. Keep up with the dynamic situation in the world today and not one conceptually conceived 5 or more years ago.
As an interim measure dont even bother contemplating cutting any helicopters you will be shooting yourselves in the foot militarily and politically. For example, do not cut the Pumas but fly to Argus, 'bubble rap' and deploy to the East. Disembark-do good job for the months (many months) to come. I think with the situation in Northern Ireland now at Bank Robberies the PSNI can invest in their own Air Unit to free up the assets - free up not chop!
So the options are:
Faff - no money - no helicopters - faff - not enough personnel - faff-watch on Sky News
or
Pumas - Argus - Sri Lanka/Indonesia - Go
(Please note I genuinely believe that this is certainly the area for the Commando Helicopter Force (I think they have done this kind of stuff in Bhanghladesh, Honduras and Kurdistan before) but again because there are so few SH, the Junglies are roped into doing non Amphibious tasks to infill for lack of Land SH and I believe they are are away in total for 2005-so hence wrong capibility (i.e. Pumas) doing the wrong job (i.e. operating in the Littoral).
Forget PR, forget spin, forget all the periphery rubbish.....helicopters are needed and in large numbers. The cupboard is bare and we all know it. Golf Hopper, I totally agree with the ARGUS option, hospital and helicopters all in one - effect required at target end. Sadly what are we going to put on board or in Argus.....just observing PPRUNE and Happy Hour banter reveals that everyone is busy and deployed or planning on deploying in the very near future.
So, MoD Plc and all those officers in positions with influence stop trying to sweep the lack of SH under the carpet. Stop talking Air Manoeuvre and start talking a realistic language for todays real world and not one that doctrine is forcing you down. Keep up with the dynamic situation in the world today and not one conceptually conceived 5 or more years ago.
As an interim measure dont even bother contemplating cutting any helicopters you will be shooting yourselves in the foot militarily and politically. For example, do not cut the Pumas but fly to Argus, 'bubble rap' and deploy to the East. Disembark-do good job for the months (many months) to come. I think with the situation in Northern Ireland now at Bank Robberies the PSNI can invest in their own Air Unit to free up the assets - free up not chop!
So the options are:
Faff - no money - no helicopters - faff - not enough personnel - faff-watch on Sky News
or
Pumas - Argus - Sri Lanka/Indonesia - Go
(Please note I genuinely believe that this is certainly the area for the Commando Helicopter Force (I think they have done this kind of stuff in Bhanghladesh, Honduras and Kurdistan before) but again because there are so few SH, the Junglies are roped into doing non Amphibious tasks to infill for lack of Land SH and I believe they are are away in total for 2005-so hence wrong capibility (i.e. Pumas) doing the wrong job (i.e. operating in the Littoral).
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Goffer Hopper.... RAF..... 4 Star Hotels..... Yaaawwwwnnnn!! Start a different thread you muppet.
Pumas on a boat?? (yes, I know...boat) That would be lovely, one problem though. Unless things have changed recently, they were never cleared to do it.
Pumas on a boat?? (yes, I know...boat) That would be lovely, one problem though. Unless things have changed recently, they were never cleared to do it.
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Jay,
I know - hence the term 'bubble rap'.
Land onboard, wrap in cling film (Puma Pervs would love that!) store below and allow HM Grey Funnel lines to ferry you out to Area of Operations (and crews fly out 2 weeks later) unwrapp flyoff (under Service Deviation in suitable sea state) - do the bizz, leaving Argus as the Hospital Ship to do her stuff.
So no deck landing training required just using Argus as a ferry.
I know - hence the term 'bubble rap'.
Land onboard, wrap in cling film (Puma Pervs would love that!) store below and allow HM Grey Funnel lines to ferry you out to Area of Operations (and crews fly out 2 weeks later) unwrapp flyoff (under Service Deviation in suitable sea state) - do the bizz, leaving Argus as the Hospital Ship to do her stuff.
So no deck landing training required just using Argus as a ferry.
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The Puma on deck thing is (I believe) due to top heavy CofG and weight on wheels, yet the French land their Puma / Super Puma on decks. I am sure that 230 plc would be off like a shot were they allowed. Go by air though not sea.
My initial thoughts of DHFS were (in hindsight) an acceptance that all other SH assets have already gone elsewhere; leaving only the training system left to bleed! I do still think though that Bell 412s with long tanks (which I believe they are equipped with) and winches (which SARTU in the very least have) could do the job. Heard a rumble in the jungle that there are no SAR places in the forseeable future, so present comitment aside, why have they not shoved several girly SARTU cabs into a big jet (Hire an Antonov) and get them to a place of work. .......Forgot; there is no medal for services to humanity, Cancel all suggestions:
Heard the comments ref contracts and payment, but who mentioned it being for free. Keep the millions the polititions are whining about and use said budget to provide action at the coal face instead.
Actions speak louder than words?
On a separate note: The last remaining Belfast aircraft is being used Australia - Indonesia on relief sorties. Interesting that an aircraft sacked by the Labour Govt of `75 is still needed after all these years. A lack of foresight perhaps?
My initial thoughts of DHFS were (in hindsight) an acceptance that all other SH assets have already gone elsewhere; leaving only the training system left to bleed! I do still think though that Bell 412s with long tanks (which I believe they are equipped with) and winches (which SARTU in the very least have) could do the job. Heard a rumble in the jungle that there are no SAR places in the forseeable future, so present comitment aside, why have they not shoved several girly SARTU cabs into a big jet (Hire an Antonov) and get them to a place of work. .......Forgot; there is no medal for services to humanity, Cancel all suggestions:
Heard the comments ref contracts and payment, but who mentioned it being for free. Keep the millions the polititions are whining about and use said budget to provide action at the coal face instead.
Actions speak louder than words?
On a separate note: The last remaining Belfast aircraft is being used Australia - Indonesia on relief sorties. Interesting that an aircraft sacked by the Labour Govt of `75 is still needed after all these years. A lack of foresight perhaps?
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Pumas and ships do not work, they roll over!! As stated very high CoG.
SARTU, going as there are no SAR courses?? Erm i think not. SAR are just as short as everyone else and are still runnning DHFS courses, selection short courses and SAR long courses.
Yes I agree its a major disaster and we can do more. However its not a case of saying oh we have 20 helicopters just sat here. The crews that fly them, Pumas and Chinooks for example are alreay spending 6 months+ everyear on ops.
Fine lets go and do some good for humanity but downing street has to be realistic and take another task away.
SARTU, going as there are no SAR courses?? Erm i think not. SAR are just as short as everyone else and are still runnning DHFS courses, selection short courses and SAR long courses.
Yes I agree its a major disaster and we can do more. However its not a case of saying oh we have 20 helicopters just sat here. The crews that fly them, Pumas and Chinooks for example are alreay spending 6 months+ everyear on ops.
Fine lets go and do some good for humanity but downing street has to be realistic and take another task away.
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As long ago as 1970 48 Sqns 16 C130s were used in getting aid to flood disaster areas in Bangladesh, in many cases dropping relief supplies directly into the affected areas where the roads/railway were impassable. In Indonesia the disaster zone extends for several hundred kilometers down the western coast of Sumatra and many towns and villages haven't been explored yet. Never mind the choppers; over there, there's plenty of scope for anything/anyone that can do the kind of tactical flying at which the military excel. Meanwhile thousands of tons of aid is building up in Medan from where it cannot reach those in the most need of it...
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Please read the post - I KNOW PUMAs and ships do not go together
Hence put them below deck aka Roll On - Roll Off (Ro-Ro), but this time a Ro-Ro will be no use, where as the use of Argus as the Ro-Ro puts 2 capabilities (SH and Hospital) into AO at the same time with minimum of fuss and risk.
Jungly AEO, I believe you are right, infact I know you are right and was always amazed how long you guys were in Bosnia without a Deck in sight or Amphib landing in sight.
The sad fact is that the Pumas are odds on favourite for the chop this year (yep - despite the NAO report they are not only going to reduce the FRC/SABR spending
but potentially also remove the entire Puma capability as 'Peace Divdend' from the NI Peace Process (yeah right!). My point being dont chop re-task and if the quickest option is to re-task to the East, then so be it.
Sadly the as highlighted in many threads the Sea King and the Junglies have been a victim of their own success and their flexibility and capability has resulted in them being 'used out of role' by JHC HQ to make up the SH shortfall. Also, as we all know the Puma does not come without its penalties and limitations, but any SH is better than the removal of a capability without a replacement.
So, just remind me, we are still at the faff-not enough money-faff-not enough helicopters stage....
Good, I am glad to see things progressing at there usual pace....
Hence put them below deck aka Roll On - Roll Off (Ro-Ro), but this time a Ro-Ro will be no use, where as the use of Argus as the Ro-Ro puts 2 capabilities (SH and Hospital) into AO at the same time with minimum of fuss and risk.
Jungly AEO, I believe you are right, infact I know you are right and was always amazed how long you guys were in Bosnia without a Deck in sight or Amphib landing in sight.
The sad fact is that the Pumas are odds on favourite for the chop this year (yep - despite the NAO report they are not only going to reduce the FRC/SABR spending
but potentially also remove the entire Puma capability as 'Peace Divdend' from the NI Peace Process (yeah right!). My point being dont chop re-task and if the quickest option is to re-task to the East, then so be it.Sadly the as highlighted in many threads the Sea King and the Junglies have been a victim of their own success and their flexibility and capability has resulted in them being 'used out of role' by JHC HQ to make up the SH shortfall. Also, as we all know the Puma does not come without its penalties and limitations, but any SH is better than the removal of a capability without a replacement.
So, just remind me, we are still at the faff-not enough money-faff-not enough helicopters stage....
Good, I am glad to see things progressing at there usual pace....
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So what have we got then boy's.
Defence cuts that have left the elastic so stretched that it has snapped.
Helicopters sat waiting for spares that will never turn up so we have to rob other aircraft.
Helicopters that have run out of airframe hours so we have to buy replacement machines that other nations have no use for.
Build machines that can only do some of the jobs it was designed to do.
Build machines then put our own engines and avionics into so they cannot work along side our allies, and cost three times the amount it would have cost if we had bought off the shelve.
Run down our field hospitals so we cannot depoly medical assistance.
Now flying SAR and a Chinook in support of Carlise floods. No mention from the military spokesman that this service might not be avilable in 3 years time.
Having to hire Russian heavylift to support most missions away from the shores of the UK.
It appears the the goverment can talk the talk but not walk the walk. And they wonder why the boys are getting p***ed off.
Just a thought.
Defence cuts that have left the elastic so stretched that it has snapped.
Helicopters sat waiting for spares that will never turn up so we have to rob other aircraft.
Helicopters that have run out of airframe hours so we have to buy replacement machines that other nations have no use for.
Build machines that can only do some of the jobs it was designed to do.
Build machines then put our own engines and avionics into so they cannot work along side our allies, and cost three times the amount it would have cost if we had bought off the shelve.
Run down our field hospitals so we cannot depoly medical assistance.
Now flying SAR and a Chinook in support of Carlise floods. No mention from the military spokesman that this service might not be avilable in 3 years time.
Having to hire Russian heavylift to support most missions away from the shores of the UK.
It appears the the goverment can talk the talk but not walk the walk. And they wonder why the boys are getting p***ed off.
Just a thought.