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Centralised Engineering At Lyneham

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Centralised Engineering At Lyneham

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Old 21st Dec 2004, 16:08
  #21 (permalink)  
 
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Prior to 1970, Lyneham had centralised Line and Base servicing for the Britannias and Comets. After 216 Sqn got its own eng flt comprising elements of the old strat line and base support sqns the availablility of the Comets increased markedly. The ground crew were more motivated and happier too.

Interestingly, there had been no effort to include the C130K servicing within the Britannia and Comet centralised organization, 24, 36, 30, 47, 48 and 70 Sqns were supported by 2 Line Support Squadrons, LSS A and LSS B.
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Old 21st Dec 2004, 17:55
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There seem to be 2 main themes running here.

The first is the issue of having 1st line engineering tasks for several squadrons being subsumed into a central organisation. This would lead to the removal of groundcrew personnel from flying sqns and seems to be universally regarded as worse than bad.

The second is that of 2nd line tasks being centralised for different aircraft types. In my view, this is a workable, and (depending on the circumstances) sensible way forward. Similarly, I can appreciate the move to avoid duplicating 2nd line facilities at separate bases (eg Tornado GR4 bits at Los/Mar or generic Tornado bits for all the stns). Again, PROVIDING the supply sytem is sufficiently primed to take care of the pipeline time involved, this could also be a "good thing".

IMHO, we shouldn't let our universal distaste for the first option blind us to the benefits of the second.

Comments?
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Old 21st Dec 2004, 19:07
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Quite correct RLE, and that is what is going to happen in the GR4 Force.

The 2nd Line aspect won't be a major problem, but where Lyneham is concerned, I think it'll take longer to put an aircraft through a servicing because people won't be as familiar with "the other type". We can all use manuals if we don't know something, it just takes longer. However, will the system cope after Multi-skilling when there are only slightly more than half the number of techies?

It's the 1st Line bit of centralisation which is the problem, and I'm so pleased that many of the aircrew Ppruners views correspond with my own. How can a system which blatantly doesn't work at Brize be any use anywhere else? (Don't know about Lyneham).

I don't see why 1 SEngO, 2 JEngO's and a wobbly can't manage 2 sqns worth, leave the FS's downwards embedded in their own sqn;.at least that way pride and esprit de corps would be largely unaffected and people would still give a stuff - that's what keeps most of us going after all.

I fully agree with BEagle's comments about Brize; from an eng. point of view, the VC10 sqns, esp. 101, were always well worth a posting, now most wouldn't touch 10/101 with a long thin boating implement. Don't mind long hours, lotsa work etc but when you don't feel part of the team anymore what's the point?

Hopefully some of you guys might be able to point your EngO colleagues in the direction of this thread, and if some of them take notice and change their viewpoints, it's worth it. Some of them might even openly oppose the party line,ooooohhh.

Some quality Mess chest-poking might bear fruit, too. (especially if you live at Marham as there's a Wg Cdr there with a big position in the game!).

CAS are you listening? Don't let them chop squadrons to bits!!

Thanks all
JG
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Old 21st Dec 2004, 20:55
  #24 (permalink)  
 
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Surely the whole argument that lay behind the formation of 24/30 (Engineering) Squadron and 47/70 (Engineering) Squadron from what was A and B Line Servicing Squadrons at Rompers Green was to bring aircrew and groundcrew closer together to improve morale and espirit de corps?
Is this total 180 degree turn yet another condemnation of the RAF/MoD postings policy? OC Eng desperate to be seen to succeed, sweep out the old, in with the new, all to be noticed in their one chance of making Gp Capt? Success then means the next poor sod has to do something equally radical and so the circle goes round and round.

I saw this in the early days of the FGR2 in what was then Air Support Command, Coningsby was initially going to be centralised servicing with no squadron identities on aircraft or for groundcrew, as per the majority of the AT fleet at the time and as the V-force then was.
Something changed the minds of the powers that be at Upavon, though it took a little longer to persuade them of the need for formation flying practice at Squadron level!

Someone also sat up and took notice on the Vulcan squadrons as they all changed back to squadron groundcrew and dedicated aircraft, why does this always seem to happen??
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Old 21st Dec 2004, 21:35
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Well, when I was a young 'wet-behind-the ears' sprog freshly posted to Scampton in errrmm....'64, the Vulcans had centralised servicing at 1st and 2nd Line. Working on E Dispersal, there was little contact with the aircrew and any association with Sqn pride etc was non-existent. Didn't stop us achieving the best serviceability levels that we could or taking pride in launching 4-ships from Kinloss QRA pans on Mickey Finns. Mind you, when the hooter went at 5.00am, you really did not know (for 4 minutes) whether to rush to the dispersal or wait for the mushroom cloud. But I digress.

At 1st Line level, to engender the Sqn spirit and to work as a close knit team in achieving the best levels of service and support requires aircraft and groundcrew to be firmly allocated to a Sqn. It also requires the aircrew to be full participants in the process and not to be stand-offish, as can (or did) happen. 2nd Line is different, due to the need to make maximum utilisation of the high cost resources needed, and to avoid expensive duplications.

So - centralised servicing = 1st Line bad, 2nd Line good (well, workable).
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Old 21st Dec 2004, 21:57
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Lyneham Lad,

Do you happen to know why the V force abandoned centralised 1st Line and returned to squadron groundcrew with their own aircraft?
Surely if it was a success it would have continued, or was there a new OC Eng at 1 Group.............................

Pr00ne
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Old 21st Dec 2004, 22:10
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Pr00ne,

Probably because it all fell apart after I left (when I was forced to leave the delights of Lincolnshire and go, kicking and screaming, to hot & sweaty Seletar). Gawd, wot a shock, exchanging the mighty Vulcan for single and twin Pioneers.

That aside, you are probably right that is was yet another new chappie trying to make a name for himself.
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Old 22nd Dec 2004, 19:06
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What's the general feeling at those stns that already have centralised 1st line servicing? Having never worked transport, AWACS and the like I simply don"t know.

Is everyone happy with the status quo or is there any desire to go back towards a "traditional" sqn setup?
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Old 22nd Dec 2004, 19:14
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It's a $hite idea.......
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 00:25
  #30 (permalink)  

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I think some of the point has been missed here by those not familiar with Lyneham's eng setup.

Lyneham has NEVER had Sqn-based engineering - it has always been centralised. Eng Wg was, and still is, a separate entity to the Fg Sqns, from OC Eng right down to all the LACs.

The fact that Sqn based engineering works better has little to do with esprit de corps - it has more to do with the fact that Sqn JEngOs report directly to the Sqn Cdr, and can be dragged into his office to explain themselves when ac fall over. At Lyneham, JEngOs, SEngOs and OC Eng Wg don't give a sh1t if XX Sqn loses a task due to ac unserviceability, because they are not accountable directly to the Sqns, therefore do not get bollocked for slacking off or fcuking up (in the Sqn's eyes).

In modern, NMS, cuddly-fluffy business-like speak, we (the Sqns)are their 'customers' (-chokes back vomit) and as such should expect to recieve a minimum level of service. But what if we don't? Where do we go to complain? There is no direct command-chain link between us and the engineers, so when we complain, we get 'fcuking aircrew, blah blah blah'. If there WERE a direct command-chain link, a Sqn Cdr could say to his JEngO "Get this fcuking aircraft fixed", and it would happen. THATS why it works better that way.

We have always had 2 1st lines at Lyneham; when the fleet split, they were renamed 'K-line' and 'J-line' to represent the split fleet. What they are now doing is combining them for mixed-type servicing, presumably having everybody (or at least enough of the workforce) dual-qualified.

Like others have said already, a stupid idea. Unfortunately, it is an even more stupid idea than the original setup, which was already a stupid idea.

I have already been on the recieving end of this idiocy - delayed 2 hours due to some of the shoddiest servicing and associated paperwork I have seen in double-digit service.

Women - Know Your Limits!!!!!!!!!! ;-D

16B
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 12:07
  #31 (permalink)  
 
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Hold the personal abuse...

Anyone who believes that OC Eng at Lyneham is solely and personally responsible for this change is seriously deluded - and there seem to be a significant number of individuals in that category. If you want to blame anything, blame a system that, despite claims of 'real terms' budget increases, is seeing its spending power reduced year-on-year by rampant inflation in the defence industry and, as a result, is being forced to make some difficult choices. Stations are expected to find 'efficiency measures' by Groups, driven by Strike, driven by the Centre, driven by the Treasury. Easiesy way to efficiency measures is by cutting manpower, Eng Wg = biggest manpower pool = easiest target. I have no doubt that the changes that have taken place will have been discussed (and reluctantly agreed) by the Station Management Board (including the sqn cdrs), with endorsement from Group and Strike. OC Eng is the poor individual who has to make it happen - I know, I've been in a similar situation myself, trying to drive through a change (with which I personally did not agree) against massive resistance. While you may not agree with the changes that have been made, has anyone considered that OC Eng may also not agree, but has been put in the position of driving the change through regardless? I think some of you need to look at your posts and consider that abuse of Lyneham's OC Eng, as a small cog in a big machine, is actually inappropriate.

For what it's worth, given the choice (and many don't have it) and the fact I've experienced both, I'd rather be on a sqn - but that doesn't mean that centralised servicing can't work. I have also been at Waddington, where centralised servicing of Sentry was implemented at the start and, because nobody knew any different, it worked very well. Given time and a bit of understanding, so might Lyneham...

16B - there is a direct command chain link, it's just stepped up a level to the Staish, who I'm sure takes a great deal of interest in what his sqn cdrs tell him and would call OC Eng in if he felt it necessary.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 12:59
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True - it's highly unlikely that this idea was the brainchild of the OC Eng in question. More likely to have been imposed from on high - and the unfortunate OC Eng has been left to get on with it.

The intangible asset of well-motivated sqn groundies is something which anonymous bean counters cannot enter onto their wretched balance sheets though.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 13:59
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I've been and had a look around the 'new' Eng setup, and I can't recall a single more retrograde step than this idea. People who DON'T KNOW about the aircraft they have to make decisions on being put under heavy pressure to achieve servicability rates.

As to 'leave OC Eng alone it's not really up to her' .... what was the job title again? This is an incredibly poorly implemented foolish idea, with the opinions of the SNCOs on the line totally ignored. The result - I have never seen a more dis-spirited bunch of people than the personnel she is meant to be be leading, nor a more shambolic engineering line (despite the enormous efforts of the SNCOs et al. to keep things safe).
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 15:39
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I take issue with the statement by 16 Blades that Lyneham has never had sqn based engineering. In 1970, elements of the Strat Line Servicing Squadron and the Comet Scheduled Servicing Flight element of Base Support Squadron were amalgamated into 216 Sqn Engineering Flight. 216 Sqn was then responsible for 1st 2nd and 3rd line servicing of its own aircraft until disbanded in 1975.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 16:31
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Sorry for posting my thoughts here.

I was told about this forum via a friend who is in the same boat as me, her husband is also a member of HLS, and going through the same thing as mine. My husband is an Engineer on the newly formed HLS at lyneham and in 20 years of him being the the RAF I have never once had him say "I dont want to go to work" until now. He is constantly short tempered and cannot sleep while he is on shift due to the stress this new system is putting on him.

This system was also implemented just before Christmas which meant that the usual xmas spirit has been non existant. Plus, no leave was allowed due to the swapping of shifts etc which has seriously dented the moral of the few lads I have met since this was started. They all felt proud of their respected squadrons when they found a Squadron identity when the J's and K's got a number (24/30eng and 47/70eng) but again, they have been made to sound like quick fit fitters again with a title 'HLS' which the lads have named 'Hercules Laughing Stock'

My husband feels that he has no direction and cannot lead his men due to the fact that this radical change of the usual working practise means everyone feels lost. He feels that he no longer belongs and that the new system leaves the Sgt's feeling useless as their lads come to them for information, but they cannot provide it as they are out of the loop as they are not trade managers anymore.

As for the posts here about working both aeroplanes it isnt whats happening as my husband says the aircraft are so radically different that its impossible for the lads to work on each others aircraft without specialist training.

My husband has been on Squadrons thoughout his career and it always made him proud. It was amazing that being on a Squadron gave them all an identity which bred pride and comaradery which kept the lads chins up even when the chips were down. Lyneham is the first place Ive heard of in 16 years of being an Air Force wife where the ground crew and aircrew are two seperate entities and it shows in the moral and the identity of the lads. They now have no pride, no interest, no moral, and most of all no clue of whats going on (as no formal briefings were held to inform Sgts and below on what was going on)......and thats from someone who see's the lads and lasses from the outside.

Like I said, I'm sorry for posting this but I have been so worried about my husband and the things that have been going on. All I hope is that thing don't get so bad that we have an accident where someone is killed because of a system that has been rushed into place for no apparent reason.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 16:33
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Point taken, izod. I stand corrected.

What I should have said was the Hercules fleet at Lyneham has never had centralised servicing.

Maintainer,

Using that logic, there is a direct Cmd Chain link between everybody in the RAF and everybody else. What I meant was a direct link at Sqn level. Once you get above the level of the front line operators, priorities become diluted and the message is lost.

16B
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 16:38
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from lynehamwife
He is constantly short tempered and cannot sleep while he is on shift
I should hope not, people are on shift to work, not sleep. Its people sleeping on shift that are letting the side down, imagine how much more work would get done, if people stayed awake at work.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 16:46
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Sorry for your miss-interpreted reponse

My husband does not sleep 'On shift' He is too busy working.

A shift is the 4 days he is on. In other words, he cannot sleep while he is supposed to be sleeping off.

Having a name like that you should understand that off shift means your on your 4 days off. Are you the same person posting on the lyneham village website, as you also had a go at a young SAC there for voicing his concerns......what was the response? "Its young idiots like you that make the RAF what it is today" there as well. I won't go into what you said after that, it might get edited by the site administator.

Please try to make constructive points when posting on forums instead of stupid digs. Instead of being sarcastic, you could have asked if I meant that he slept whilst at work.

Last edited by lynehamwife; 23rd Dec 2004 at 16:57.
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 16:56
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LynehamWife

No need to apologise about posting here. Your thoughts on this subject are most welcome.

I fear the current feelings of your husband are repeated in many homes across the station.

If you find many of your friends are saying similar things, it might be worth trying to get your points across to the senior management on station if you get an opportunity - Hive, mess function, etc.

It is sad, but sometimes it is much easier for the wives to speak to the higher echelons, as they feel no rank structure.

Just so you know, the aircrew on station are dead against this as well. None of the senior line pilots I know were consulted at all, and most of us only found out about it at the 11th hour on the rumor mill.

I agree totally about the lack of Sqn identity. The only good thing to have come out of OP TELIC is the techie mates I have made whilst on det. The togetherness out there shows how it can be done.

I shall watch out for any more posts from you. It makes a pleasant change from some of the vindictive drivel we see on here.

P-T-G
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Old 23rd Dec 2004, 17:31
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lynehamwife

The reason your husband is acting this way is because his is a proffesional engineer who takes pride in his work.

For which he will get no reward.

If he hasn’t worked it out for himself already – he needs to care a little less about the flying program.

The time has never been better for a ‘work to rule’. When morale is low, and there is no motivation, there is no reason to make an extra effort.

Don’t cut any corners, don’t miss any meal breaks, don’t compronise on safety. Look after the young lads and gals below you. Imagine how bewildered they are. Your only focus is your shift Flt Sgt and JENGO…and shift change. And family.

For too long the engineering world has been a ‘can do’ outfit. I know of no other trade that will work a 12 hour shift in the pissing rain without a proper meal break.

The grown ups work on bar charts, graphs and budgets. Let them worry about the things that they are paid handsomely for.

Happy Christmas
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