Who cares when you PVR?
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sunny Florida, USA
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Who cares when you PVR?
So who cares in your Service when you PVR?
How many of you out there were asked "why are you going" when you slapped that letter on your OC/CO's desk? Your OC/CO, if he is worth his salt, probably knows why he has received your resignation but who in the hierarchy and the "power echelons" knows, or even wants to know?
Has anybody our there been persuaded to stay by being asked to visit "Admin HQ" and made an offer not to be refused?
Or is it just accepted?
Answers on a postcard.................
How many of you out there were asked "why are you going" when you slapped that letter on your OC/CO's desk? Your OC/CO, if he is worth his salt, probably knows why he has received your resignation but who in the hierarchy and the "power echelons" knows, or even wants to know?
Has anybody our there been persuaded to stay by being asked to visit "Admin HQ" and made an offer not to be refused?
Or is it just accepted?
Answers on a postcard.................
Mike - "Do you think the AF owe you a career?"
Lets turn that one around shall we? Do you think I owe the AF anything? That attitude works both ways, especially when you consider that the military today aims to recruit the best that is out there. If you aim for the best recruits, don't be surprised when they leave after a few years of you treating them like sh*t.
The military isn't a vocation these days, it's a career and is advertised as such. Higher entry standards, higher qualifications of recruits - many with degrees and post-grad degrees in the junior ranks let alone the officer corps, leadership qualities - as suggested by passing Cranditz/NCO aircrew trg, getting promoted etc, flexibility, ability to work under own initiative, integrity etc. They are all qualities much admired by civilian employers, and prevalent in the military.
So Mike, no I don't think the AF owes me a career. I expect to work hard and earn my money and any promotion or other benefits; however, if it expects things to be a one-way street, its going to get a shock when all the competent people lget hacked off and eave for civilian jobs, leaving only the sh*t left in to get picked up, creating a vicious circle of competent people getting hacked off, leaving and then more sh*t getting promoted. That's the root of the problem at the moment - the sh*t floats theory.
But to get back to the original question I'd have to say that 99% of the time, I would expect the chain of command not to give a damn about why you are leaving (see sh*t floats theory above). It's one less OJAR / ACR for them to write.
However, I did hear about someone on my station PVR-ing and their sqn cdr getting them in the office for a chat, trying to find out why they were leaving. At the end of the chat, said sqn ldr turned round and said that if he was doing his job properly and looking after the interests of the sqn he'd try and persuade the person in question to stay. However he promptly announced that said person was wasted in the RAF - if he were in their position, he wouldn't hang around either.
Now that made a re-freshing change - someone further up the food chain acknowledging how bad things have become. Bet it's the exception to the rule though and most others would just tell you to stick your papers in their tray for signing.
Lets turn that one around shall we? Do you think I owe the AF anything? That attitude works both ways, especially when you consider that the military today aims to recruit the best that is out there. If you aim for the best recruits, don't be surprised when they leave after a few years of you treating them like sh*t.
The military isn't a vocation these days, it's a career and is advertised as such. Higher entry standards, higher qualifications of recruits - many with degrees and post-grad degrees in the junior ranks let alone the officer corps, leadership qualities - as suggested by passing Cranditz/NCO aircrew trg, getting promoted etc, flexibility, ability to work under own initiative, integrity etc. They are all qualities much admired by civilian employers, and prevalent in the military.
So Mike, no I don't think the AF owes me a career. I expect to work hard and earn my money and any promotion or other benefits; however, if it expects things to be a one-way street, its going to get a shock when all the competent people lget hacked off and eave for civilian jobs, leaving only the sh*t left in to get picked up, creating a vicious circle of competent people getting hacked off, leaving and then more sh*t getting promoted. That's the root of the problem at the moment - the sh*t floats theory.
But to get back to the original question I'd have to say that 99% of the time, I would expect the chain of command not to give a damn about why you are leaving (see sh*t floats theory above). It's one less OJAR / ACR for them to write.
However, I did hear about someone on my station PVR-ing and their sqn cdr getting them in the office for a chat, trying to find out why they were leaving. At the end of the chat, said sqn ldr turned round and said that if he was doing his job properly and looking after the interests of the sqn he'd try and persuade the person in question to stay. However he promptly announced that said person was wasted in the RAF - if he were in their position, he wouldn't hang around either.
Now that made a re-freshing change - someone further up the food chain acknowledging how bad things have become. Bet it's the exception to the rule though and most others would just tell you to stick your papers in their tray for signing.
Last edited by Melchett01; 4th Dec 2004 at 23:08.
Join Date: Feb 2000
Location: england
Posts: 43
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
I PVR'D I was never asked why I was going, the person in psf simply showed me the amount of files that were related to the same thing. I was leaving to go to a job where they pay me more, give me a chance of achieving somthing with my career and treat me like an adult. I even got a glowing final assesment saying I had outlined my intentions and followed them through. I was out in 28 days. Finished the friday and started the new job on the monday.
As for employing the best people out there, I would not employ half the people I used to work with. They just spent a million pounds on the computer for our office. They encourage people who want to progress and have ideas about the future, and I am not towing the corporate line. But just because you were in the military, does not give you the right to anything special.
As for employing the best people out there, I would not employ half the people I used to work with. They just spent a million pounds on the computer for our office. They encourage people who want to progress and have ideas about the future, and I am not towing the corporate line. But just because you were in the military, does not give you the right to anything special.
Guest
Posts: n/a
yep
Totally concur with that one. Half the people I used to work with wouldnt last long in this company.
And as far as believeing that the AF has a career...goodness me man, get a grip. Thats not a career. School teacher, Doctor, Bank manager...they are careers...but Air Force Officer...? really?
And as far as believeing that the AF has a career...goodness me man, get a grip. Thats not a career. School teacher, Doctor, Bank manager...they are careers...but Air Force Officer...? really?
Join Date: Aug 2000
Location: Liverpool based Geordie, so calm down, calm down kidda!!
Age: 60
Posts: 2,051
Likes: 0
Received 17 Likes
on
6 Posts
The day you go is really strange. I did 24 years and my last memory was the PSF clerk saying "can I have your ID card please?". He then said "That's it then". No-one even says thanks or goodbye.
What you must understand is that this has gone on for years, you are not irreplaceable. They do not need to persuade you to stay. If you wanted to.... you would do it. One year gone and I haven't missed it much.
What you must understand is that this has gone on for years, you are not irreplaceable. They do not need to persuade you to stay. If you wanted to.... you would do it. One year gone and I haven't missed it much.
Nixor ut Ledo
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: In a Beaut of a State
Posts: 499
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Was asked to withdraw my PVR 'cos I was on the wg cdr psl and my application obviously mucked things up a bit. Refused to withdraw (application for emigration to Oz depended on exit date) and have never looked back since. Loved just about every single day of my time in the RAF but haven't regretted leaving.
Join Date: Jun 2001
Location: Formerly resident of Knoteatingham
Posts: 957
Received 119 Likes
on
59 Posts
Things certainly have changed. I applied for PVR in 1989 and was told my exit date would be 1992. I was determined to leave so accepted the exit date and was promptly invited for a chat by Harry Staish to explain my reasons. He accepted what I said, told me that, as far as he was concerned, I could rescind the PVR at any stage and without penalty to my career prospects.
I enjoyed my time in the RAF but, despite the insecurity of civilian life, I do not regret leaving one iota.
I enjoyed my time in the RAF but, despite the insecurity of civilian life, I do not regret leaving one iota.
The only people who will give a $hit are the resettlement folks. As for the hierarchy, they couldn't care less - you'll just be a statistic helping to solve Binnsworth's manning surplus.
You'll probably even have to pay for your own Dining-Out these days - and it's unlikely they'll want you to give a speech if you haven't been a party line worker bee.
It can work both ways though; I didn't go to the airlines, but I'm told that those who have often tip off the airline recruiters about which other mates to look out for - and which back-stabbing ex-senior officers to black list!
You'll probably even have to pay for your own Dining-Out these days - and it's unlikely they'll want you to give a speech if you haven't been a party line worker bee.
It can work both ways though; I didn't go to the airlines, but I'm told that those who have often tip off the airline recruiters about which other mates to look out for - and which back-stabbing ex-senior officers to black list!
Join Date: Aug 2002
Location: where should i be today????
Age: 57
Posts: 342
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
BEagle
'You'll probably even have to pay for your own Dining-Out these days - and it's unlikely they'll want you to give a speech if you haven't been a party line worker bee'
Pretty much spot on with your comment:
However;
I have seen a number of good people leave the service either on PVR terms or at their release point - without even being offered to be dined out. Out of sight out of mind is the order of the day!
'You'll probably even have to pay for your own Dining-Out these days - and it's unlikely they'll want you to give a speech if you haven't been a party line worker bee'
Pretty much spot on with your comment:
However;
I have seen a number of good people leave the service either on PVR terms or at their release point - without even being offered to be dined out. Out of sight out of mind is the order of the day!
Last edited by rej; 5th Dec 2004 at 09:39.
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Up North
Posts: 801
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
Do you think the AF owe you a career? No one cares when you leave...
I've had people working for me leave on PVR and it followed a similar pattern - if someone wants to go then there's no point in trying to talk them out of it, particularly if the reasons are family-orientated.
People do care but life goes on, both for those leaving and for those staying in.
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Home
Posts: 903
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
So who cares in your Service when you PVR?
Until then as stated previously you are just a statistic
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Years ago all the sim and ops slots were filled with PVRing pilots. At least that has stopped.
One of my men just jumped. I didn't try very hard to keep him but did talk over the pros and cons. Probable promotion - plus - retraining - minus - posting - minus - more pay + better pension + compared with BWoS same job + much more pay ++ less time to same money + posting - danger money ++.
He jumped.
One of my men just jumped. I didn't try very hard to keep him but did talk over the pros and cons. Probable promotion - plus - retraining - minus - posting - minus - more pay + better pension + compared with BWoS same job + much more pay ++ less time to same money + posting - danger money ++.
He jumped.
Avoid imitations
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Wandering the FIR and cyberspace often at highly unsociable times
Posts: 14,574
Received 422 Likes
on
222 Posts
I left at option point (18 yrs) and asked to be released 10 weeks early iaw QRs, as I had a time critical job pending outside. Staish tried to prevent me leaving on time to take up civilian job, by vetoing request, despite full support of Sqn. He also put most of my final report scores as low as he could, at complete variance with those of my Flt Cdr and Sqn Cdr. Called me disloyal to my face. I took my leave owing and resettlement course and left 8 weeks early anyway. Sent the bill for 28 days rate 1's spent abroad in an "expensive area" addressed to him in person, which gave me some satisfaction.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
Join Date: May 2000
Location: England
Posts: 733
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
The Service, and I can only refer to the Air Force, has never really been interested in those who PVR. I can relate to this attitude as one of the RAF's mainstays has always been that no one, no matter who they are, is irreplaceable. This is deeply rooted in the can I have your egg if you don't come back ages.
It is true that once you indicate your wish to leave your card is marked as disloyal but thats a small price to pay IMHO. I have no doubt there are those who experience mean minded individuals within the admin fraternity but hey I am not going down THAT route!!
I do firmly believe that the only reason Hoon and the rest are reducing the RAF to 40K + individuals is because that target figure was going be achieved by an ever increasing PVR rate and inability to recruit/retain new blood.
And I also found the PVR process to be most pleasing and a very pleasant experience. The hardest part? Actually making the decision to jump out and rejoin the real world, something that every one has to do at some point in their careers.
Also like Jess I recieved the tell us why you are leaving questionnaire which I binned, as well a grand thank you for 28 years letter from the Defence Council via some Air Officer. That one's in a frame!! The pension is very nice too, thanks Gordon!!
All I can say is that 28 years enriched my life beyond my dreams and made me who am I am today. I have also discovered that in a few places, the grass really can be greener on this side of the fence!!
It is true that once you indicate your wish to leave your card is marked as disloyal but thats a small price to pay IMHO. I have no doubt there are those who experience mean minded individuals within the admin fraternity but hey I am not going down THAT route!!
I do firmly believe that the only reason Hoon and the rest are reducing the RAF to 40K + individuals is because that target figure was going be achieved by an ever increasing PVR rate and inability to recruit/retain new blood.
And I also found the PVR process to be most pleasing and a very pleasant experience. The hardest part? Actually making the decision to jump out and rejoin the real world, something that every one has to do at some point in their careers.
Also like Jess I recieved the tell us why you are leaving questionnaire which I binned, as well a grand thank you for 28 years letter from the Defence Council via some Air Officer. That one's in a frame!! The pension is very nice too, thanks Gordon!!
All I can say is that 28 years enriched my life beyond my dreams and made me who am I am today. I have also discovered that in a few places, the grass really can be greener on this side of the fence!!
I PVR'd , after 8 years AEOp and just had a chat with the Sqn boss. Never went further than that, except for a chat with Dr John Reid in the O's mess once , when he was Defence Sec:
"So sonny are you enjoying your time in the RAF then?"............................
"Well actually I've done 8 years and I leave in a couple of weeks!"...........................Watch as contents of mess slowly form into huddled groups and drift away.................!
AE leader did offer some nice postings and good words of enchouragement but I think It was known I was going and that was that.
They did get ****ty about leaving early by about 4 weeks so I said that I would do a Cpl Clinger and say I was gay (Even though soon to be married!)
I was put on gardening leave and never looked back
Do miss the lads, Dets and the Irish stew you used to get in the Mighty Hunter.
Ah happy days!
"So sonny are you enjoying your time in the RAF then?"............................
"Well actually I've done 8 years and I leave in a couple of weeks!"...........................Watch as contents of mess slowly form into huddled groups and drift away.................!
AE leader did offer some nice postings and good words of enchouragement but I think It was known I was going and that was that.
They did get ****ty about leaving early by about 4 weeks so I said that I would do a Cpl Clinger and say I was gay (Even though soon to be married!)
I was put on gardening leave and never looked back
Do miss the lads, Dets and the Irish stew you used to get in the Mighty Hunter.
Ah happy days!
Thread Starter
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Sunny Florida, USA
Posts: 110
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
My "Service" is the RN!
Interesting! I am in my 28th year with the RN and PVR'd in Sep 04. The reason for starting this thread, and I can see that I am not alone here, is that since my letter went in I have received no such questionnaire of why I have PVR'd, no queries from anybody from "Staish" level or above asking why? I have been given all the resettlement advice and assistance that I would expect but it amazes me that there is no follow up on an officer's PVR!
There are a huge "dark blue" movement at present to Oz and NZ , (although I am going elsewhere abroad) and I am sure that there must be a trend in PVR reasons that the UK Mil can pick up on!
I have a job to go to next year which was supposed to start early next year. The RN said that I could go in 9 months from the date of my letter although I had asked for 6. Fortunately with terminal/resettlement and annual leave I can start "resettling" with my new company after 7 months but I had to re-negotiate!
A question for the light blue - does the RAF issue a Retired Officer's ID Card at the moment?
There are a huge "dark blue" movement at present to Oz and NZ , (although I am going elsewhere abroad) and I am sure that there must be a trend in PVR reasons that the UK Mil can pick up on!
I have a job to go to next year which was supposed to start early next year. The RN said that I could go in 9 months from the date of my letter although I had asked for 6. Fortunately with terminal/resettlement and annual leave I can start "resettling" with my new company after 7 months but I had to re-negotiate!
A question for the light blue - does the RAF issue a Retired Officer's ID Card at the moment?
Not unless you're called-out for one of Trust-me-Tone's bring-a-bottle wars to get him out of the undermanning crisis successive governments have brought on the UK Armed Forces.
You can have 35 years' service and held Top Secret clearance, but the day after you leave you're entitled to nothing except your pension. If you want a social pass for civilian membership of an on-station club or society, you'll even have to fill out the same Plod questionnaire as someone who's never ever been in the forces....
Not quite the same as the way the US treats its ex-servicemen and women!
You can have 35 years' service and held Top Secret clearance, but the day after you leave you're entitled to nothing except your pension. If you want a social pass for civilian membership of an on-station club or society, you'll even have to fill out the same Plod questionnaire as someone who's never ever been in the forces....
Not quite the same as the way the US treats its ex-servicemen and women!
Join Date: Mar 2002
Location: Several miles SSW of Watford Gap
Posts: 596
Likes: 0
Received 0 Likes
on
0 Posts
PVR
There seems to be an assumption here that the RAF considers PVRing to be a bad thing - it may be news but it doesn't. In fact a degree of PVR applications is accepted - even when the size of the Service is not reducing. Reducing PVR rates too low can have a detrimental effect - remember 1 man's PVR could equal 1 or more men's promotions (1 WO PVRing leads to 4 individuals being promoted earlier than they would have done had the WO stayed in until he was 55 (5 for tech trades/2 for NCA)). Therefore, reducing PVR rates too low effects promotion rates which, in turn, could lead people to PVRing!
So PVR is accepted as a fact of life as long as it is of manageable proportions - it is not something that is special (especially when living in a society that - apparently - no longer wishes to spend their lives in one career).
So PVR is accepted as a fact of life as long as it is of manageable proportions - it is not something that is special (especially when living in a society that - apparently - no longer wishes to spend their lives in one career).
Red On, Green On
Join Date: May 2004
Location: Between the woods and the water
Age: 24
Posts: 6,487
Likes: 0
Received 2 Likes
on
2 Posts
And to continue on Climebear's theme, it may actually be better for the UK's military capability to have more turnover of manpower, so long as training units can cope. More turnover means more people with fairly fresh skills who can be re-called and mobilised for another of Trust-me's expeditonary extravaganzas.....