Nimrod MR1 and Phase 3 Shack - progress but by how much?
Thread Starter
Nimrod MR1 and Phase 3 Shack - progress but by how much?
Obviously the Nimrods performance (speed, cruise speed, range) was streets ahead but with the same (?) ASV21D radar, Mk1c Sonar System (using the T9003 directional passive sonobuoy, and the T11514 directional active sonobuoy) how much of a leap was the original, pre Searchwater, pre AQS901 Nimrod?
Some say that MAD worked (which it never had on the Shack?) and that the integrated navigation tactical system and digital computer made a huge difference. Did it?
What did the Mk 1 Nimrod do for ESM? No Loral ARI.18240/1 and no Orange Harvest, so what was there?
Did the crew complement change?
Some say that MAD worked (which it never had on the Shack?) and that the integrated navigation tactical system and digital computer made a huge difference. Did it?
What did the Mk 1 Nimrod do for ESM? No Loral ARI.18240/1 and no Orange Harvest, so what was there?
Did the crew complement change?
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Jackonicko
Yes the MAD worked.
We also had a LOFAR passive acoustics system the AQA 5 as well as the Mk 1c
ESM was the ARAR/ARAX which I recollect was a French system.
The Tactical system was the major leap forward, integrating all the analogue sensors and displaying data. it took away al the manual work required in the Shack and alowed the tacnav to concentrate on using the aircraft as a weapon !
Mind you the trappers always made sure that it was switched of for some portion of your annual check ride.
Crew composition was much the same as the present MR2 but I think was more than the Shack.
Hope that helps
Mike
It looks like our postings crossed.
Have you still got the shopping trolley presented to you when you left 42 Sqn
Yes the MAD worked.
We also had a LOFAR passive acoustics system the AQA 5 as well as the Mk 1c
ESM was the ARAR/ARAX which I recollect was a French system.
The Tactical system was the major leap forward, integrating all the analogue sensors and displaying data. it took away al the manual work required in the Shack and alowed the tacnav to concentrate on using the aircraft as a weapon !
Mind you the trappers always made sure that it was switched of for some portion of your annual check ride.
Crew composition was much the same as the present MR2 but I think was more than the Shack.
Hope that helps
Mike
It looks like our postings crossed.
Have you still got the shopping trolley presented to you when you left 42 Sqn
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Jackinoko,
To add to the other posts (and not contradict either), three Nimrods could cover the same piece of water in 24 hrs as 5 Shacks. True the Shack flew for longer but the Nimrod could transit quicker and go further so it was a force extender (same with less).
Weapons wise it could also use the SSQ41 pinger. This had a higher data rate than the 1c but no bearing.
The T24953 lofar could be used as a pair to get a Codar bearing. Individually we could get doppler and an esitmated range based on audio strength. With two or three we could get an LCL (logical comparsion lofar) fix by triangulating the audio strength - quick and dirty. If the target 'cooperated' by starting or stopping engines we could get a Hi-Fix which was based on received time difference for the same event on each sonobuoy.
The Hi-Fix was where the Tac Display came in to its own drawing out the respective circles to estimate the parabolic lines.
In addition to the same torpedoes as the Shack, the Nimrod added 2xNDB. I am not sure if the last Shacks had NDB too, I think it was possible.
The other benefit was that the crew was not quite as knackered after a 9 hour Nimrod flight as 12 hours plus in the Shack. You could also shut the toilet door in the Nimrod - remembering to take your headset with you. One trap ride, the AEO trapper got locked in the toilet without a headset. He was a bit poorly placed to attract attention.
I think the Nimrod also had more crew as the AEOps had to fill the radio, radar and ESM (Dry sensor operators) and Mark 1c - 2 receiver sets and Jez with two as well.
Each Jez set covered 4 buoys and through time sharing one operator could monitor 8 channels.
Jackinoko see PM
To add to the other posts (and not contradict either), three Nimrods could cover the same piece of water in 24 hrs as 5 Shacks. True the Shack flew for longer but the Nimrod could transit quicker and go further so it was a force extender (same with less).
Weapons wise it could also use the SSQ41 pinger. This had a higher data rate than the 1c but no bearing.
The T24953 lofar could be used as a pair to get a Codar bearing. Individually we could get doppler and an esitmated range based on audio strength. With two or three we could get an LCL (logical comparsion lofar) fix by triangulating the audio strength - quick and dirty. If the target 'cooperated' by starting or stopping engines we could get a Hi-Fix which was based on received time difference for the same event on each sonobuoy.
The Hi-Fix was where the Tac Display came in to its own drawing out the respective circles to estimate the parabolic lines.
In addition to the same torpedoes as the Shack, the Nimrod added 2xNDB. I am not sure if the last Shacks had NDB too, I think it was possible.
The other benefit was that the crew was not quite as knackered after a 9 hour Nimrod flight as 12 hours plus in the Shack. You could also shut the toilet door in the Nimrod - remembering to take your headset with you. One trap ride, the AEO trapper got locked in the toilet without a headset. He was a bit poorly placed to attract attention.
I think the Nimrod also had more crew as the AEOps had to fill the radio, radar and ESM (Dry sensor operators) and Mark 1c - 2 receiver sets and Jez with two as well.
Each Jez set covered 4 buoys and through time sharing one operator could monitor 8 channels.
Jackinoko see PM
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Pontious
"I'm not sure if the last Shacks had NDB's"
They did!
Think! - It was an American weapon system and to be alllowed to drop it, you had to be commissioned, employing the 2 man principle
Hence. in the 60's all Shack NCO pilots and Navs went to clothing stores to get fitted out with officer uniforms - overnight!
Now we don't carry the American weapon any more, why aren't we recruiting NCO pilots and Navs
Love many, Trust a few, Always Paddle your own canoe!
"I'm not sure if the last Shacks had NDB's"
They did!
Think! - It was an American weapon system and to be alllowed to drop it, you had to be commissioned, employing the 2 man principle
Hence. in the 60's all Shack NCO pilots and Navs went to clothing stores to get fitted out with officer uniforms - overnight!
Now we don't carry the American weapon any more, why aren't we recruiting NCO pilots and Navs
Love many, Trust a few, Always Paddle your own canoe!
A diesel sniffer used by seat sniffing AEOps.
The big spark plug it wasn't! That was for the ESM, I think. Orange Harvest? Not sure as it was before even my time.
The big spark plug it wasn't! That was for the ESM, I think. Orange Harvest? Not sure as it was before even my time.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Buoy 15, thanks for that. In the 60s I saw on the super-white detergent and avoided the smellies until the 80s.
Jackinocko see PM again.
Anyone remember the channel shortage on Jez buoys in the mid-70s? Always flew with a full complement of buoys but the plea from ISR not to drop some channels as they were in short supply?
Jackinocko see PM again.
Anyone remember the channel shortage on Jez buoys in the mid-70s? Always flew with a full complement of buoys but the plea from ISR not to drop some channels as they were in short supply?
I'm intrigued JN- why the sudden interest in the Shack/things maritime? Mk 2c and now relative abilities.
With a good crew the Phase 3 Shack could do almost as well as the Mk1 Nimrod, but the jet had speed and comfort on its side. On the other hand there was an awful lot of experience in the older side of the Shack Force, many of whom were not 'selected' to go jets, or had problems with the course. These were the guys who could literally sniff out a submarine - even without Autolycus. I was but a lowly co-pilot in those days, so claim no ability for that, but it was impressive to see a good crew go to work. The other thing that it had going for it was because we were low and slow a goodly number of our certsubs were with the Mk 1 eyeball.
On exercise we regularly beat the P3s with their better kit - on one occasion taking out a sub that had a periscope up from right underneath a USN P3C. Our kit also worked - the 1C sonar may have been relatively old but it was very good in the right hands - we also had the 'pleasure' of being one of the first to catch a Polaris boat underwater that came into an exercise area (but that's another story).
The 'Spark Plug' came in two different shapes for different frequencies - in those days X and I band (if I recall correctly), and you had the appropriate one fitted for the task in hand, and again the Siggies could get as much info out of them as today's automatic computer driven systems.
Autolycus also worked quite well - we caught at least one diesel sub that was snorting in the middle of the Indian Ocean - however it was also a very broad brush weapon - sometimes the narrow trail you picked up could go a long way - to a chimney on Sumatra!
ASV21 was also one hell of a good radar - in the hands of a good operator. When the AEW fleet started up we had a load of ex Gannet observers posted in as the 'backbone' of the operating side of the Squadron, most of whom had used the AN/APS radar for a long time - and were very fixed in their views of how it should be used. We also had a few MR Siggies who came along to help set up the systems, as we still had MR2s for training. When these guys got on to the AEW radar they also made it sing - better than before . Funny old thing, they were suddenly posted.
When I first saw the Nimrod I must admit I was impressed - mostly by the loo, as the old Elsan really left its mark - mainly on the nasal passages. However, where were the 2 x 20 mil Hispanos which were great to fire, and which filled the whole fuselage up with cordite smoke and made you feel you'd had a good day!
Yes, the Shack could have soldiered on, but the Mk3 was shot, and the Mk 2 was tired and needed a good overhaul and a lot more modern equipment both at the front and to cope with the changing ASW threat. Unfortunately, when the AEW conversion was carried out it was driven by AEW operators - no one asked the then crews what could also be done to improve on board life, so a great chance was missed - there were mods that had been asked for in the early 60's which were refused 'because the ac would soon be going out of service' (how many times have I heard that since on just about every ac in service) which continued to cause us problems or worse on AEW.
Finally we did have the pleasure of attending Collyweston for our indoctrination. As buoy15 mentioned, a lot of very happy NCO aircrew were commissioned overnight, a lot against their wishes. Nevertheless it was fun having one as a captain ( or should I say Aircraft Commander in newspeak).
Sorry - got carried away on what was going to be a quick 2 liner reply!!!!
** Pertama **
With a good crew the Phase 3 Shack could do almost as well as the Mk1 Nimrod, but the jet had speed and comfort on its side. On the other hand there was an awful lot of experience in the older side of the Shack Force, many of whom were not 'selected' to go jets, or had problems with the course. These were the guys who could literally sniff out a submarine - even without Autolycus. I was but a lowly co-pilot in those days, so claim no ability for that, but it was impressive to see a good crew go to work. The other thing that it had going for it was because we were low and slow a goodly number of our certsubs were with the Mk 1 eyeball.
On exercise we regularly beat the P3s with their better kit - on one occasion taking out a sub that had a periscope up from right underneath a USN P3C. Our kit also worked - the 1C sonar may have been relatively old but it was very good in the right hands - we also had the 'pleasure' of being one of the first to catch a Polaris boat underwater that came into an exercise area (but that's another story).
The 'Spark Plug' came in two different shapes for different frequencies - in those days X and I band (if I recall correctly), and you had the appropriate one fitted for the task in hand, and again the Siggies could get as much info out of them as today's automatic computer driven systems.
Autolycus also worked quite well - we caught at least one diesel sub that was snorting in the middle of the Indian Ocean - however it was also a very broad brush weapon - sometimes the narrow trail you picked up could go a long way - to a chimney on Sumatra!
ASV21 was also one hell of a good radar - in the hands of a good operator. When the AEW fleet started up we had a load of ex Gannet observers posted in as the 'backbone' of the operating side of the Squadron, most of whom had used the AN/APS radar for a long time - and were very fixed in their views of how it should be used. We also had a few MR Siggies who came along to help set up the systems, as we still had MR2s for training. When these guys got on to the AEW radar they also made it sing - better than before . Funny old thing, they were suddenly posted.
When I first saw the Nimrod I must admit I was impressed - mostly by the loo, as the old Elsan really left its mark - mainly on the nasal passages. However, where were the 2 x 20 mil Hispanos which were great to fire, and which filled the whole fuselage up with cordite smoke and made you feel you'd had a good day!
Yes, the Shack could have soldiered on, but the Mk3 was shot, and the Mk 2 was tired and needed a good overhaul and a lot more modern equipment both at the front and to cope with the changing ASW threat. Unfortunately, when the AEW conversion was carried out it was driven by AEW operators - no one asked the then crews what could also be done to improve on board life, so a great chance was missed - there were mods that had been asked for in the early 60's which were refused 'because the ac would soon be going out of service' (how many times have I heard that since on just about every ac in service) which continued to cause us problems or worse on AEW.
Finally we did have the pleasure of attending Collyweston for our indoctrination. As buoy15 mentioned, a lot of very happy NCO aircrew were commissioned overnight, a lot against their wishes. Nevertheless it was fun having one as a captain ( or should I say Aircraft Commander in newspeak).
Sorry - got carried away on what was going to be a quick 2 liner reply!!!!
** Pertama **
Anyone remember the channel shortage on Jez buoys in the mid-70s? Always flew with a full complement of buoys but the plea from ISR not to drop some channels as they were in short supply?
Jez' buoys were bought in 31 channel sets and therein lay the root of the problem. Channel usage had to be monitored in order to ensure that adequate stocks of each channel were maintained. NODs/NEVs could have been a bit difficult otherwise!
Channel 15 was rarely in short supply, but I always wondered if the ones on the aircraft would have worked as they were always being loaded/unloaded.
Note for the non maritime reader:
Sono channel 15 was the SAR datum marker buoy. The one you put in just before you ditched yourself or used to mark located survivors. As far as possible a channel 15 buoy with an 8 hour setting was always kept loaded in one of the pressurised launchers. When you used a channel 15 buoy for normal purposes you tried to restrict it to a short life setting.
The increase to 99 channels on the MR2, closely followed by the introduction of channel selectable buoys made it all a thing of the past.
YS
Thread Starter
Why the interest?
Working on a largely historic overview of Kipper ops....
So when (what year) did these US NDBs come in? When was this 'mass elevation' of NCO aircrew?
What new threat drove the introduction of NDBs, or was it just taking advantage of their availability?
And didn't Autolycus make the jump to the Nimrod? I thought they still had it?
And when did NDBs disappear from the Kipper fleet?
Working on a largely historic overview of Kipper ops....
So when (what year) did these US NDBs come in? When was this 'mass elevation' of NCO aircrew?
What new threat drove the introduction of NDBs, or was it just taking advantage of their availability?
And didn't Autolycus make the jump to the Nimrod? I thought they still had it?
And when did NDBs disappear from the Kipper fleet?
Jacko,
AFAIK it was intended to but I do not believe that it was ever fitted to any of the operational airframes. The only vestige of Autolycus was the Autolycus/MAD switch.
Sometime post 1988 probably after 1990 It was published in the press at the time. I recall reading it in the Telegraph. A Google search should turn up some details.
YS
And didn't Autolycus make the jump to the Nimrod? I thought they still had it?
And when did NDBs disappear from the Kipper fleet?
YS
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Shackman, Orange Harvest came with both frequency sets covered. They were I believe s and X although I never got one to work on 8. It might have worked but I never heard anything.
India and Xray are the same band used by some ships but mostly airborne radar. S or DEF is about 2-3 GHz cf I at 8-9. I am sure a siggy will come up with the exact numbers.
India and Xray are the same band used by some ships but mostly airborne radar. S or DEF is about 2-3 GHz cf I at 8-9. I am sure a siggy will come up with the exact numbers.
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PN
Thanks - I stand corrected as always. T'was X and S band under the 'old' nomenclature that was changed circa 1971, when of course X became I and S became D, E and F. Although the sets could receive either it was dependant on the aerial on top - on 8 we only ever had the X/I band spark plug which was the standard MR fit when they were converted, and no one thought to keep the other ones!
On one occasion we were tasked to investigate possible 'emanations' from a suspected new Soviet base in the Indian Ocean, and this required two aircraft - one with each aerial - to fly an approx 13-14 hour sortie, with the middle part flown in close formation at heights down to approx 100ft whilst listening for anything interesting.
Jacko
I can't say when the NDB came in, but out of habit should we be discussing this anyway?
Mass 'elevation' was roughly mid 60's, which must have been well after the weapon came into service, but when did the 'two man concept' come into being?
** Pertama **
Thanks - I stand corrected as always. T'was X and S band under the 'old' nomenclature that was changed circa 1971, when of course X became I and S became D, E and F. Although the sets could receive either it was dependant on the aerial on top - on 8 we only ever had the X/I band spark plug which was the standard MR fit when they were converted, and no one thought to keep the other ones!
On one occasion we were tasked to investigate possible 'emanations' from a suspected new Soviet base in the Indian Ocean, and this required two aircraft - one with each aerial - to fly an approx 13-14 hour sortie, with the middle part flown in close formation at heights down to approx 100ft whilst listening for anything interesting.
Jacko
I can't say when the NDB came in, but out of habit should we be discussing this anyway?
Mass 'elevation' was roughly mid 60's, which must have been well after the weapon came into service, but when did the 'two man concept' come into being?
** Pertama **
Thread Starter
"Should we be discussing this anyway?"
It's history. History in that the whole NDB era is over anyway - even for the Nimrod - so that even the parametrics and the tactics are no more than a historical curiosity, and it's also history in that if it began in 1974 or before (which it obviously did) it will be in the ORBs in the Public Records Office anyway.
It's history. History in that the whole NDB era is over anyway - even for the Nimrod - so that even the parametrics and the tactics are no more than a historical curiosity, and it's also history in that if it began in 1974 or before (which it obviously did) it will be in the ORBs in the Public Records Office anyway.
Orange Harvest needed more than just an aerial change to fully move to X or S band. In fact the aerial house two independent aerial systems. The four "windows" were the directional "wideband" side and the one at the very top under the black hat was the "narrow band" one. The narrow band required that the Oscillator (in the cupboard just above the radar op) matched the type of S or X aerial in use, so the appropriate one had to be fitted. There was also a mixer change but these were permanent fits. Bit a bodge really, the narrow band kit originally came curtesy of a certain 51 sqdn.
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Freq Bands
I can't believe that I'm going to answer this as I'm going to be crucified as a cabbage. Ah, well, what the hell, here goes.
The old 'S' band is now 'E' (2 - 3 GHz) and 'F' (3 - 4 GHz).
What is now 'D' (1 - 2 GHz) used to be the old 'L' band.
The old 'X' band was from 8 - 12GHz. What is now known as 'I' band goes from 8 - 10 Ghz and usage includes most boat, little ship and big ship navigation radars as well as airborne cloud and clunk, fighter and airborne search radars.
Autolycus never made the jump to Nimrods. Don't rightly know why, but an educated guess would be because of the advent of nuclear subs.
The NDB was a yank weapon, called the 550lb bucket of sunshine
. It went out of service with the kipper fleet circa 1991. The weapons release on the pilots yoke were a black covered button with a 'C' for conventional and a red covered button with an 'N' for nuclear. Or coffee with sugar and coffee NO sugar when asked by Joe Public when asked at static air shows.
Hope this helps. Standing by for flak
RR
The old 'S' band is now 'E' (2 - 3 GHz) and 'F' (3 - 4 GHz).
What is now 'D' (1 - 2 GHz) used to be the old 'L' band.
The old 'X' band was from 8 - 12GHz. What is now known as 'I' band goes from 8 - 10 Ghz and usage includes most boat, little ship and big ship navigation radars as well as airborne cloud and clunk, fighter and airborne search radars.
Autolycus never made the jump to Nimrods. Don't rightly know why, but an educated guess would be because of the advent of nuclear subs.
The NDB was a yank weapon, called the 550lb bucket of sunshine
. It went out of service with the kipper fleet circa 1991. The weapons release on the pilots yoke were a black covered button with a 'C' for conventional and a red covered button with an 'N' for nuclear. Or coffee with sugar and coffee NO sugar when asked by Joe Public when asked at static air shows.Hope this helps. Standing by for flak
RR
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Autolycus was fitted to the Mk1 Nimrod and monitored at the Sonics 1 position - it was too sensitive, couldn't be de-sensitised, and due to temperature inversions etc, it could detect diesel trails from tankers over 2 weeks old: hence, after about 3 years, it was removed.
The 'S' Band Mod for ARAX/ARAR was incorporated to pick up Top Sail which was initially fitted to Kresta 2's.
Strange nobody has mentioned Linescan (SLIR), which was also too sensitive, producing a high false alarm rate - so never progressed.
As for sonobuoy channels - Mk1c was 750Khz spacing, Jez was 375 (overlap between 1 and 17) we were also signatories to the Quadrapartite agreement - remember that? Channel 16 etc?
The 2 man principle meant you had to hold hands and walkaround in pairs at crew-in and beyond. Sadly, in those days there were no girls on the crew.
The Ranger buoy was the most effective and economical confirmation tool in the inventory, and still is (about £80 a shot), however, as we had bought Cambs and Barra, the software was modified to remove the processing.
Policy decision (not from the operators) was that every radar riser would be investigated using a new DIP, which on average cost the price of a new Golf GTI!!
After 10 mins - "Capt - Port Beam, Fridge, 9 o'clock 200 yards"
"Roger, resume patrol - give us a steer Nav"
Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe!
The 'S' Band Mod for ARAX/ARAR was incorporated to pick up Top Sail which was initially fitted to Kresta 2's.
Strange nobody has mentioned Linescan (SLIR), which was also too sensitive, producing a high false alarm rate - so never progressed.
As for sonobuoy channels - Mk1c was 750Khz spacing, Jez was 375 (overlap between 1 and 17) we were also signatories to the Quadrapartite agreement - remember that? Channel 16 etc?
The 2 man principle meant you had to hold hands and walkaround in pairs at crew-in and beyond. Sadly, in those days there were no girls on the crew.
The Ranger buoy was the most effective and economical confirmation tool in the inventory, and still is (about £80 a shot), however, as we had bought Cambs and Barra, the software was modified to remove the processing.
Policy decision (not from the operators) was that every radar riser would be investigated using a new DIP, which on average cost the price of a new Golf GTI!!
After 10 mins - "Capt - Port Beam, Fridge, 9 o'clock 200 yards"
"Roger, resume patrol - give us a steer Nav"
Love many, Trust a few, Always paddle your own canoe!