New SAR Cabs
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Junglie AEO
Do you wear glasses?
If not, I suggest a visit to the opticians, because you are myopic beyond belief!
yours
in anticipation of further engineeringspeak drivel...
Fiesty
Do you wear glasses?
If not, I suggest a visit to the opticians, because you are myopic beyond belief!
yours
in anticipation of further engineeringspeak drivel...
Fiesty
Non deployable SAR?
The non-deployable SAR Force managed to deploy 2 Seakings with about a weeks notice to Cyprus when the rug was pulled early on the Wessex. The 2 month detachment then lasted nearer 5 by the time the Griffin entered service late with the civillian contract.
Many ex SAR pilots and rearcrew get posted to the SH force where they invariably do very well and generally have better CRM and handling skills than their green cousins-fact, I have done both!
Jungly I suggest you stop being so parochial and visit a yellow SAR unit where you will meet enthusiastic, talented and professional aviators who enjoy being in the military and woulnd't swap it for anything.
Many ex SAR pilots and rearcrew get posted to the SH force where they invariably do very well and generally have better CRM and handling skills than their green cousins-fact, I have done both!
Jungly I suggest you stop being so parochial and visit a yellow SAR unit where you will meet enthusiastic, talented and professional aviators who enjoy being in the military and woulnd't swap it for anything.
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Jungly AEO
You are very wordy about a subject you clearly know little about.
771 embark on the CVS to cover SAR for the stovies and on the Type 22/23s for the utility role - try and get bristows to do that ! It would be easier to contract out the engineering side.
The crabs deploy with their fast jets to provide SAR in exotic places.
As for our flying pay we are worth every penny, there is more to military flying than a few years at uni and learning how to sign the 700.
Military SAR is more important than you think - open your eyes.
So what is your beef ? did you girlfriend run off with a better paid SAR god
771 embark on the CVS to cover SAR for the stovies and on the Type 22/23s for the utility role - try and get bristows to do that ! It would be easier to contract out the engineering side.
The crabs deploy with their fast jets to provide SAR in exotic places.
As for our flying pay we are worth every penny, there is more to military flying than a few years at uni and learning how to sign the 700.
Military SAR is more important than you think - open your eyes.
So what is your beef ? did you girlfriend run off with a better paid SAR god
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JunglyAEO
The Myopic comment may not be as flippant as it first appears (and it was me, not Deliverance).
The mob spends a pile of cash training aircrew. Not only does SAR develop captaincy in situations where REAL decisions have very real and immediate effects on individuals survival prospects but it happens week in week out, conflict or no conflict. This feeds excellent general captaincy skills and experience back to the front line. Additionally, the SAR specific skills will be available within deployed units so when the balloon goes up and the ships start sinking, a good number of aircrew will have a sound base of knowledge to ensure the job is done right.
On top of all that, those folk who have trod the corridor, back and forth between front line units at Yeovilton will testify to the retention incentive of second line tours.
In summary, the SAR force provides the primary SAR cover to military aircrew, also a good service to the Public (who after all pay for us at the end of the day), a fantastic training ground and a retention incentive for a substantial number of aircrew.
Perhaps, when you take these factors into account, the SAR Force it is not so expensive as you believe?
I look forward to hearing further of your informed words of wisdom...
Regards
Fiesty
The Myopic comment may not be as flippant as it first appears (and it was me, not Deliverance).
The mob spends a pile of cash training aircrew. Not only does SAR develop captaincy in situations where REAL decisions have very real and immediate effects on individuals survival prospects but it happens week in week out, conflict or no conflict. This feeds excellent general captaincy skills and experience back to the front line. Additionally, the SAR specific skills will be available within deployed units so when the balloon goes up and the ships start sinking, a good number of aircrew will have a sound base of knowledge to ensure the job is done right.
On top of all that, those folk who have trod the corridor, back and forth between front line units at Yeovilton will testify to the retention incentive of second line tours.
In summary, the SAR force provides the primary SAR cover to military aircrew, also a good service to the Public (who after all pay for us at the end of the day), a fantastic training ground and a retention incentive for a substantial number of aircrew.
Perhaps, when you take these factors into account, the SAR Force it is not so expensive as you believe?
I look forward to hearing further of your informed words of wisdom...
Regards
Fiesty
Junglyaeo - the last SARforce commander had aspirations for deployability for the RAF SAR Sea Kings but it quickly became a non-starter (apart from the Cyprus det which used the OCU) because of the crap serviceability problems with the aging fleet. Get some modern helicopters in the job and deployability is a player but we struggle on a daily basis to maintain the integrity of the UK SAR cover.
Military SAR is worth keeping for its primary role (rescuing jet mates -I pulled one of your Sea Harrier pilots out of the Bristol Channel last year) and its massive contribution to the civilian world where, despite lots of poaching from Air Ambulance and the like, we keep on producing the goods so that people can go walking, climbing,sailing, diving and flying knowing that if it goes pear-shaped then there will always be someone to come and get them regardless of the weather. Could this be done by civvies? Yes of course but they would not get 20% of the training hours that we enjoy and those training hours allow us to operate safely in some unpleasant conditions, day or night.
If you get rid of us not only will you lose all of that capability but also deny the NHS the use of a large helicopter to transport critically ill patients to hospitals that can provide specialist treatment - none of the air ambulances are big enough to permit a doctor and 2 nurses to work on their casualty in flight.
Military SAR is worth keeping for its primary role (rescuing jet mates -I pulled one of your Sea Harrier pilots out of the Bristol Channel last year) and its massive contribution to the civilian world where, despite lots of poaching from Air Ambulance and the like, we keep on producing the goods so that people can go walking, climbing,sailing, diving and flying knowing that if it goes pear-shaped then there will always be someone to come and get them regardless of the weather. Could this be done by civvies? Yes of course but they would not get 20% of the training hours that we enjoy and those training hours allow us to operate safely in some unpleasant conditions, day or night.
If you get rid of us not only will you lose all of that capability but also deny the NHS the use of a large helicopter to transport critically ill patients to hospitals that can provide specialist treatment - none of the air ambulances are big enough to permit a doctor and 2 nurses to work on their casualty in flight.
Jungly - where do you think Mr Bristow will take the SAR pilots from that he needs to do UK SAR - oh yes the military, RN and RAF.
The lack of spares is an engineering issue, the IPT is run by engineers and consistently fails to deliver.
The engineering can be done significantly cheaper by civvy contractors - would it be as good? No but that is the argument you propose for sacking RAF SAR.
You don't need more front line Sea Kings, you need a modern, serviceable helicopter with reduced maintenance costs - but Merlin sure ain't it!
Don't confuse deployable SAR with CSAR - the latter is not a job for a yellow helicopter with a winch, it is a job for an SH machine with loads of guns and grunts in the back and some gunship topcover - the Sea King would be shi*e at it which is why the spams use MH53E.
We could train all pilots for 5 years to ensure they were absolutely top hole at everything before being allowed to go to the front line but engineers would be slagging us off for having an easy life and costing too much money.
Take the SAR role from Culdrose and Prestwick and you have a load of helos trying to justify their existence doing bugger all work, I think their MCT and sub roles are the secondary ones now.
However, you are correct that all SAR drivers are gods and easily worth treble what we are actually paid but that's what you get for working hard at school!
The lack of spares is an engineering issue, the IPT is run by engineers and consistently fails to deliver.
The engineering can be done significantly cheaper by civvy contractors - would it be as good? No but that is the argument you propose for sacking RAF SAR.
You don't need more front line Sea Kings, you need a modern, serviceable helicopter with reduced maintenance costs - but Merlin sure ain't it!
Don't confuse deployable SAR with CSAR - the latter is not a job for a yellow helicopter with a winch, it is a job for an SH machine with loads of guns and grunts in the back and some gunship topcover - the Sea King would be shi*e at it which is why the spams use MH53E.
We could train all pilots for 5 years to ensure they were absolutely top hole at everything before being allowed to go to the front line but engineers would be slagging us off for having an easy life and costing too much money.
Take the SAR role from Culdrose and Prestwick and you have a load of helos trying to justify their existence doing bugger all work, I think their MCT and sub roles are the secondary ones now.
However, you are correct that all SAR drivers are gods and easily worth treble what we are actually paid but that's what you get for working hard at school!
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Jungly
You sound like the kind of chap who would contract out all military functions (Flying training, catering, engineering etc) apart from actual war fighting. Perhaps also cancelling all leave, forcing divorce on all serving personnel, preventing all friendships with non-serving personnel and ensuring maximum deployment of ALL Military personnel 364 1/4 days per year; all in the name of "front line first"? That should solve the gapping problem!
Alternatively, sack the entire armed forces and place them on the reserve list, then call them up in the event of a war. That should save the treasury a whole lot more cash.
Flippant again? Perhaps but my hypothesis is twofold:
1) Attempting to save military cash by axing capability is only likely to reduce the defence budget commensurate with the reduction in capability, not allow re-allocation of funds to boost another capability.
2) The British Military commands respect around the globe, mostly because of the calibre and expertise of our personnel. No matter how committed they are, everyone has a point at which they will call quits and depart to pastures new. On leaving they take with them skills and experience that cost the Taxpayer a lot of cash.
While I sympathise with the AEOs frustration at lack of front line support/resources (Quite fancy a go with an MH53, also know a few crewmen that fancy a go with the miniguns and .50 Cal), I still cannot understand his blinkered Pilot/SAR bashing point of view. Anyway, point made, take it or leave it as you see fit...
Regards
Fiesty
PS I don't believe that the NHS get Military SAR services free, perhaps someone better informed can add detail?
PPS Try Yoga, then you can be your own self-licking lollipop.
You sound like the kind of chap who would contract out all military functions (Flying training, catering, engineering etc) apart from actual war fighting. Perhaps also cancelling all leave, forcing divorce on all serving personnel, preventing all friendships with non-serving personnel and ensuring maximum deployment of ALL Military personnel 364 1/4 days per year; all in the name of "front line first"? That should solve the gapping problem!
Alternatively, sack the entire armed forces and place them on the reserve list, then call them up in the event of a war. That should save the treasury a whole lot more cash.
Flippant again? Perhaps but my hypothesis is twofold:
1) Attempting to save military cash by axing capability is only likely to reduce the defence budget commensurate with the reduction in capability, not allow re-allocation of funds to boost another capability.
2) The British Military commands respect around the globe, mostly because of the calibre and expertise of our personnel. No matter how committed they are, everyone has a point at which they will call quits and depart to pastures new. On leaving they take with them skills and experience that cost the Taxpayer a lot of cash.
While I sympathise with the AEOs frustration at lack of front line support/resources (Quite fancy a go with an MH53, also know a few crewmen that fancy a go with the miniguns and .50 Cal), I still cannot understand his blinkered Pilot/SAR bashing point of view. Anyway, point made, take it or leave it as you see fit...
Regards
Fiesty
PS I don't believe that the NHS get Military SAR services free, perhaps someone better informed can add detail?
PPS Try Yoga, then you can be your own self-licking lollipop.
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Don't let him bait you!!
If I remember rightly, and I think I do, he's playing with small helicopters now anyway and is probably afraid to go near the big ones again 'cause he's too short to reach the steps!!!
Hello Jungly AEO, still twisting the knife in the name of fun are we ;-))))))
From a fellow 819'er!
If I remember rightly, and I think I do, he's playing with small helicopters now anyway and is probably afraid to go near the big ones again 'cause he's too short to reach the steps!!!
Hello Jungly AEO, still twisting the knife in the name of fun are we ;-))))))
From a fellow 819'er!
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Gentlemen.
Some very interesting and emotive stuff here. As ever, there are 2 distinct factions when MilSAR is discussed: SH Boys who quite rightly point to the cushy number that SAR Boys have, and FJ mates who are typically very pleased to have SAR Boys looking-out for them (particularly those who have gone splash). As an ex-yellow cab SAR Boy myself, you would expect me to be biased, but the truth is I feel that the RAF SAR Force is due a shake-up. Indeed, the time has come to seriously consider working much closer with our counterparts at Bristows SAR and prepare the SAR Force for full civilianisation further down the line. I have heard all the crap about how Bristows SAR aren't as good as the RAF/RN, and all the associated arguements about weather minima. Truth is, a large percentage of Bristows SAR crews are ex-RAF/RN and are professionally trained and properly motivated. Indeed the very fact that the average Bristows SAR Flt is run with just 21 guys, whereas the RAF equivalent needs 40-50, leads me to suspect that MilSAR is too expensive and not particularly cost-effective. If you examine the real reason for maintaining MilSAR crews, the MOD will openly admit that it is a breeding ground for deployable SAR skills for the SH Force. Guys with SAR experience are supposed to take the very specialist skills into the SH world and cross-pollinate with their Chinook/Puma/Merlin/Mk4 mates. Realistically, how else is the SH Force going to get SAR experience?
What lies ahead? In my view, recent pressure to civilianise first line servicing, future movement of SAR Force HQ and the Sea King OCU to Valley, and the delay to a decision about SABR SAR leaves the door open for a civilian operator with a legacy fleet of aircraft to step into the gap. Don't dispair, this doesn't necessarily mean a reduction in standard.
(That should stir things up)
Arctic
Some very interesting and emotive stuff here. As ever, there are 2 distinct factions when MilSAR is discussed: SH Boys who quite rightly point to the cushy number that SAR Boys have, and FJ mates who are typically very pleased to have SAR Boys looking-out for them (particularly those who have gone splash). As an ex-yellow cab SAR Boy myself, you would expect me to be biased, but the truth is I feel that the RAF SAR Force is due a shake-up. Indeed, the time has come to seriously consider working much closer with our counterparts at Bristows SAR and prepare the SAR Force for full civilianisation further down the line. I have heard all the crap about how Bristows SAR aren't as good as the RAF/RN, and all the associated arguements about weather minima. Truth is, a large percentage of Bristows SAR crews are ex-RAF/RN and are professionally trained and properly motivated. Indeed the very fact that the average Bristows SAR Flt is run with just 21 guys, whereas the RAF equivalent needs 40-50, leads me to suspect that MilSAR is too expensive and not particularly cost-effective. If you examine the real reason for maintaining MilSAR crews, the MOD will openly admit that it is a breeding ground for deployable SAR skills for the SH Force. Guys with SAR experience are supposed to take the very specialist skills into the SH world and cross-pollinate with their Chinook/Puma/Merlin/Mk4 mates. Realistically, how else is the SH Force going to get SAR experience?
What lies ahead? In my view, recent pressure to civilianise first line servicing, future movement of SAR Force HQ and the Sea King OCU to Valley, and the delay to a decision about SABR SAR leaves the door open for a civilian operator with a legacy fleet of aircraft to step into the gap. Don't dispair, this doesn't necessarily mean a reduction in standard.
(That should stir things up)
Arctic
Paul, you must be right - only a person with severe 'small man syndrome' would gob off so much and so aggressively about a subject he has so little knowledge of.
Feisty - the NHS do pay for patient transport and have to prove that it cannot be done any other way before the ARCC will task a SAR asset.
Arctic - I agree the SARforce has been too introspective in the past but Bristows balance sheet for SAR does not include the aquisition of the real estate for the base or accommodation and their main saving in personnel is on the engineering side, they will typically have 2-3 engineers on shift instead of 8 -10. There is also some question on how they declare their aircraft serviceable and is all down to how the contract is written.
Maybe we should get jungly back to a discussion on how many jungly Sea Kings it takes to do the job of one Chinook........
Feisty - the NHS do pay for patient transport and have to prove that it cannot be done any other way before the ARCC will task a SAR asset.
Arctic - I agree the SARforce has been too introspective in the past but Bristows balance sheet for SAR does not include the aquisition of the real estate for the base or accommodation and their main saving in personnel is on the engineering side, they will typically have 2-3 engineers on shift instead of 8 -10. There is also some question on how they declare their aircraft serviceable and is all down to how the contract is written.
Maybe we should get jungly back to a discussion on how many jungly Sea Kings it takes to do the job of one Chinook........
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Crab
Thanks for the backup on the NHS issue.
Please don't get started on the Mk4 vs Chinook, or I may be forced to say something that supports AEO (and nobody wants that!) Suffice to say, it would be interesting to see the capability produced by a Jungly Chinook? Room for discussion in a different thread parhaps?
Regards
Fiesty
Thanks for the backup on the NHS issue.
Please don't get started on the Mk4 vs Chinook, or I may be forced to say something that supports AEO (and nobody wants that!) Suffice to say, it would be interesting to see the capability produced by a Jungly Chinook? Room for discussion in a different thread parhaps?
Regards
Fiesty
Some very interesting points being raised here, my thoughts as an ex SAR mate with extensive experience of civvy engineer operations...:
1. AT is quite correct that the SAR force is due a big shake up - despite his somewhat confrontational manner, Jungly has a point that in this day and age non-deployable, non front-line assets have to justify their existence; however selling the entire ish off is not necessarily the best option.
2. The service provided by civvy SAR is of a very high standard indeed and there is no question over the professionalism or dedication of the crews involved. That said, any commercial contract will see any non essential costs cut and that means that training would be cut to the absolute minimum. Difficult to quantify the effect, but there exists the possibility (probability?) that some capability will be lost.
3. Despite Jungly's assurances, civvy engineering, in my experience, is of the highest standard. Invaraibly highly qualified and motivated they work until the job is done - at least as hard as any military engineering operation that I have experienced. End result - every time I walk for the cab, I go flying (well apart from today when it went u/s!, but I struggle to think of the last lost sortie I had...)
4. Skill crossover between SAR and SH is important for some of the more esoteric roles that the SHF perform.
5. End result - Will probably be civvy engineered COMR SAR helicopters, but the where the crews will come from, now that's another question altogether!
1. AT is quite correct that the SAR force is due a big shake up - despite his somewhat confrontational manner, Jungly has a point that in this day and age non-deployable, non front-line assets have to justify their existence; however selling the entire ish off is not necessarily the best option.
2. The service provided by civvy SAR is of a very high standard indeed and there is no question over the professionalism or dedication of the crews involved. That said, any commercial contract will see any non essential costs cut and that means that training would be cut to the absolute minimum. Difficult to quantify the effect, but there exists the possibility (probability?) that some capability will be lost.
3. Despite Jungly's assurances, civvy engineering, in my experience, is of the highest standard. Invaraibly highly qualified and motivated they work until the job is done - at least as hard as any military engineering operation that I have experienced. End result - every time I walk for the cab, I go flying (well apart from today when it went u/s!, but I struggle to think of the last lost sortie I had...)
4. Skill crossover between SAR and SH is important for some of the more esoteric roles that the SHF perform.
5. End result - Will probably be civvy engineered COMR SAR helicopters, but the where the crews will come from, now that's another question altogether!
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Guys...
Although I think that Jungly does not know what he is talking about - it would seem that a couple of posts ago he answered his own question with the following statement.......
I'd like to polish my spanners, but most of them are being sold to civillian contractors, who come in, don't do a very good job and leave the uniformed guys to pick up the pieces.
Let's just leave him to calm down now and maybe he will clear off to another thread and start baiting people there.
Although I think that Jungly does not know what he is talking about - it would seem that a couple of posts ago he answered his own question with the following statement.......
I'd like to polish my spanners, but most of them are being sold to civillian contractors, who come in, don't do a very good job and leave the uniformed guys to pick up the pieces.
Let's just leave him to calm down now and maybe he will clear off to another thread and start baiting people there.
feel that the RAF SAR Force is due a shake-up. Indeed, the time has come to seriously consider working much closer with our counterparts at Bristows SAR and prepare the SAR Force for full civilianisation further down the line. I have heard all the crap about how Bristows SAR aren't as good as the RAF/RN, and all the associated arguements about weather minima. Truth is, a large percentage of Bristows SAR crews are ex-RAF/RN and are professionally trained and properly motivated.
If you really want to make SAR value for money, then I think that you need to reduce the gap between the SAR fleet and the SH fleet - both in terms of driver training and experience and equipement capability. If we moved over to a common platform eg Merlin, Blackhawk etc TYPE of ac (spotters, please note this is a hypothetical example, not to be taken as a "why not use this platfor"), then surely we could, overtime, cultivate a SAR force that could be used at home and abroad on ops.
Am I just missing a trick here, or would this not represent value for money and cross-polinate operational-getting-shot-at flying skills with home based crappy weather brown-trouser-flying skills?? Wouldn't this leave us with a fleet of ac that could be used when and where ever requried with crews that could fulfil both roles - SAR and CSAR? I'm sure that now would be a good time to start thinking about this - send a Flt over to the US to their CSAR school, get them trained up, send them to the sandpit and Bob's your uncle, you have the nucleus of a professionally trained CSAR outfit who can then be used to pass on their training AND experience to other crews.
Just a thought, now preparing to be told why we can't do it.
Melchett out.
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Can't remember the exact figures, but seem to remember a paper being pushed round a year or two ago saying that the SAR force expected to lose around 50-60% of first tour SAR pilots to SH after the first tour, whilst the other 40% would stay to maintain a "core" of skill sets. Don't know to what extent this has been followed though...
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Interesting that all the discussion has been about the RAF SAR Force and transference of skills back into SH. The creators of SAR - the FAA - have always taken frontline crews and placed them in SAR for a respite tour. They (the FAA) have never seen the need for ab initio SAR trg and have acceptred that a reasonable second tourist has the skills reqd for SAR. Judging by the number of awards the dark blue types have won (most recently the Prince Philip SAR award - first by a female a/c captain? - the WAFUs are pretty good at it. Skills are transferrable from front-line sea flying/SH to SAR and vice versa. There are plenty of ex-RNers up flying with Bristows (and not all ex SAR people). All they need in any new SAR force is cockpit seats and a truly Joint HQ (now there's a novelty). Why does defence need an expensive ab initio SAR pipeline if one Service can do without it?
Ho hum back to the armchair of retirement!
Ho hum back to the armchair of retirement!
Bismark - methinks you will find that our illustrious friends in dark blue are in the process of sending some ab-initio rotary pilots to SAR. Ironically they have completed a chunk of their training under the auspices of the RAF!