Justice for failed pilots?
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Justice for failed pilots?
Within the last few months at Shawbury a number of pilots have been chopped (ie withdrawn from training) from advanced helicopter training. Whilst this is a natural and necessary mechanism to keep standards fairly high the problem lies in how the chopped pilots are dealt with.
Of the pilots chopped, approximately half have been sent to start multi engine training and the other half have been completely withdrawn as aircrew. However, the opinion is that the pilots who were chopped completely are actually better pilots (In terms of grades etc.) than the ones who were sent to multis.
This is clearly wrong, why are less capable people being given a chance to restream whilst more capable pilots are being withdrawn as aircrew? Is this a high level decision to get rid of more aircrew, simply a case of bad timing for the chopped pilots or is there simply no reasoning behind it?
Thoughts and information on the matter would be appreciated.
Of the pilots chopped, approximately half have been sent to start multi engine training and the other half have been completely withdrawn as aircrew. However, the opinion is that the pilots who were chopped completely are actually better pilots (In terms of grades etc.) than the ones who were sent to multis.
This is clearly wrong, why are less capable people being given a chance to restream whilst more capable pilots are being withdrawn as aircrew? Is this a high level decision to get rid of more aircrew, simply a case of bad timing for the chopped pilots or is there simply no reasoning behind it?
Thoughts and information on the matter would be appreciated.
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No, I’m not one of the chopped so it's not just a case of sour grapes on my part.
With regards to the perceived standards, the overall grades throughout the course were a lot better and the opinions of people who have flown with the affected parties agree.
Also, a number of people received standard multis recommends from their boards and went multis and some of the people who were completely chopped received strong recommends.
Where's the sense is this?
With regards to the perceived standards, the overall grades throughout the course were a lot better and the opinions of people who have flown with the affected parties agree.
Also, a number of people received standard multis recommends from their boards and went multis and some of the people who were completely chopped received strong recommends.
Where's the sense is this?
Choprider,
I know exactly what you mean, I suffered a nightmare after completing Strawberry a couple of years ago. I was chopped at the end of the OCU for muppetry at low-level navigation, a few weeks before hitting a frontline sqn.
I watched in horror and disbelief as loads of studes behind me in the system at DHFS all got restreamed METS before they were anywhere near the end, while I was stripped of wings, flying pay and dignity, and told to find a ground job or leave. On the frontline as well I know of at least one female who was chopped for capacity, but as she had managed to keep CR status for the required 6 months she had to be restreamed METS.
The chopping board said in their report that I had displayed no capacity as a helicopter pilot and was a training risk (like the callsign) if sent to METS. I found this very hard to believe as I had proved myself to be more capable than the monkeys chopped at DHFS by actually PASSING the course... but go figure.
Years of holding and Redressing under QR1000 has still got me nowhere, but maybe one day I'll get what I want/deserve. The chimps running the aircrew desks at PMA are constantly on the back-foot as are their bosses above them, they will never get the numbers of required pilots correct. My deskie didn't support me one bit even though recommends were sent to PMA by other Commands such as STC and JHC which supported my appeal for a restream!
I quote the Air Secretary at the time (a 2-star): "A front-line sustainability study suggests the RAF will have a surplus of pilots until 2008". (Then why do we still recruit and why oh why are people pre-wings being restreamed?)
My personal pet theory is this: That by getting to an OCU, you are given enough rope to hang yourself with: if you fail, in their retarded brains you've proved you can't cope with a multi-engine OCU..... so chop him! But get chopped before an OCU, and guess what, you're still under PTC rules and budgets = more chance of a restream.
These may be the ramblings of a madman, but at the end of the day keep Redressing and appealing and writing letters and doing whatever you can. And most importantly, don't get chopped!
Training Risky
I know exactly what you mean, I suffered a nightmare after completing Strawberry a couple of years ago. I was chopped at the end of the OCU for muppetry at low-level navigation, a few weeks before hitting a frontline sqn.
I watched in horror and disbelief as loads of studes behind me in the system at DHFS all got restreamed METS before they were anywhere near the end, while I was stripped of wings, flying pay and dignity, and told to find a ground job or leave. On the frontline as well I know of at least one female who was chopped for capacity, but as she had managed to keep CR status for the required 6 months she had to be restreamed METS.
The chopping board said in their report that I had displayed no capacity as a helicopter pilot and was a training risk (like the callsign) if sent to METS. I found this very hard to believe as I had proved myself to be more capable than the monkeys chopped at DHFS by actually PASSING the course... but go figure.
Years of holding and Redressing under QR1000 has still got me nowhere, but maybe one day I'll get what I want/deserve. The chimps running the aircrew desks at PMA are constantly on the back-foot as are their bosses above them, they will never get the numbers of required pilots correct. My deskie didn't support me one bit even though recommends were sent to PMA by other Commands such as STC and JHC which supported my appeal for a restream!
I quote the Air Secretary at the time (a 2-star): "A front-line sustainability study suggests the RAF will have a surplus of pilots until 2008". (Then why do we still recruit and why oh why are people pre-wings being restreamed?)
My personal pet theory is this: That by getting to an OCU, you are given enough rope to hang yourself with: if you fail, in their retarded brains you've proved you can't cope with a multi-engine OCU..... so chop him! But get chopped before an OCU, and guess what, you're still under PTC rules and budgets = more chance of a restream.
These may be the ramblings of a madman, but at the end of the day keep Redressing and appealing and writing letters and doing whatever you can. And most importantly, don't get chopped!
Training Risky
>This is clearly wrong, why are less capable people being given a chance to restream whilst more capable pilots are being withdrawn as aircrew?
As stated before, in whose opinion.
>Is this a high level decision to get rid of more aircrew, simply a case of bad timing for the chopped pilots or is there simply no reasoning behind it?
If there is a slot and you are good enough, you will get it. However there is more competition for slots at the moment.
>That by getting to an OCU, you are given enough rope to hang yourself with: if you fail, in their retarded brains you've proved you can't cope with a multi-engine OCU..... so chop him!
There is an element of truth in this. There is a lot more for them to base their decision on. You can not assume that everyone who fails helicopter training is worthy of a place on multis. However there is also an element of luck involved. This would not be happening if there was a demand for multi pilots
As stated before, in whose opinion.
>Is this a high level decision to get rid of more aircrew, simply a case of bad timing for the chopped pilots or is there simply no reasoning behind it?
If there is a slot and you are good enough, you will get it. However there is more competition for slots at the moment.
>That by getting to an OCU, you are given enough rope to hang yourself with: if you fail, in their retarded brains you've proved you can't cope with a multi-engine OCU..... so chop him!
There is an element of truth in this. There is a lot more for them to base their decision on. You can not assume that everyone who fails helicopter training is worthy of a place on multis. However there is also an element of luck involved. This would not be happening if there was a demand for multi pilots
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To solve the problem we should send everyone to BFJT. If you fail, your out. If you pass, meeting the fast jet standard, you are then streamed as you are now. The better few off to Valley the rest multi or helo. That way you have the better pilots on all three aircraft types.
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You can not assume that everyone who fails helicopter training is worthy of a place on multis
I know of many pilots U/T who have been thrown out of the branch when their skills should have merited them a second bite of the cherry. Why should the experience mentioned in the paragraph above be thrown away in favour of some lemon who just scrapes through EFT and gets a long-METS course?
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LGW,
"To solve the problem we should send everyone to BFJT"
You are absolutely correct. Better still, send everybody to Valley and then stream at the end of tac weapons.
Only one snag............ money!!
"To solve the problem we should send everyone to BFJT"
You are absolutely correct. Better still, send everybody to Valley and then stream at the end of tac weapons.
Only one snag............ money!!
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I can fully understand the sense of injustice of those who fail in advanced training and see less able individuals swanning off down the ME route having been identified as weak at an early stage and streamed accordingly.
Don't stream everybody after tac weapons, make them all do the old basic course on Tucano. That way, everybody will have proved themselves capable in aerobatics, formation, IF and nav. It would be a set standard, enabling all pilots to come back and teach all of this as QFIs.
A few years from now, we'll have no set skill level to call upon. A bloke streamed ME after 50 hours of elementary instruction has no clue about turning upside down or whizzing around at low level at 4nm/min. His rotary peer simply doesn't 'do' upside down. Not their faults at all. So the only guys up for it are FJ mates and guaranteed there won't be enough to go around.
They've saved money in the short term with early streaming, but long-term it'll cost, and they've cut the old 'gold standard' of RAF wings. In the past, you had to prove yourself by passing basic. Now you just need to get through elementary.
Not the same from where I'm sitting.
Don't stream everybody after tac weapons, make them all do the old basic course on Tucano. That way, everybody will have proved themselves capable in aerobatics, formation, IF and nav. It would be a set standard, enabling all pilots to come back and teach all of this as QFIs.
A few years from now, we'll have no set skill level to call upon. A bloke streamed ME after 50 hours of elementary instruction has no clue about turning upside down or whizzing around at low level at 4nm/min. His rotary peer simply doesn't 'do' upside down. Not their faults at all. So the only guys up for it are FJ mates and guaranteed there won't be enough to go around.
They've saved money in the short term with early streaming, but long-term it'll cost, and they've cut the old 'gold standard' of RAF wings. In the past, you had to prove yourself by passing basic. Now you just need to get through elementary.
Not the same from where I'm sitting.
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My personal pet theory is this: That by getting to an OCU, you are given enough rope to hang yourself with: if you fail, in their retarded brains you've proved you can't cope with a multi-engine OCU..... so chop him! But get chopped before an OCU, and guess what, you're still under PTC rules and budgets = more chance of a restream.
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Triple Hooked / Monty77,
As someone who came through EFT in the last 10 years and took the direct root to METS I would question the implication that we all "scraped through EFT" and then swanned off to Multis.
Firstly, that implies that METS is an easy course and although I'm sure that it is easier than Valley / Shawbury, it is still a challenging course requiring dedication and flying ability.
Secondly, it implies that all those who don't get recommended to go to Tucanos wouldn't make it through the course and possibly progress to Valley and beyond.
I am quite bitter that I didn't get sent to Linton but not because I'm deluding myself that I should be in the Red Arrows by now (fat chance) if it wasn't for some dodgy streaming decision. I am bitter that this do-it-on-the-cheap flying training system doesn't provide a BFT course for all trainee pilots (myself included) allowing a more solid basis for streaming decisions and a more rounded flying-skill-set to take to whatever stream you end up on (i.e. the sytem we had 10 years ago).
Finally, I am very happy being a multi-mate and would not want to change it, so i'm a bit p***ed off at Triple Hooked and Monty 77 apparently dismissing multi boys. Hopefully that wasn't their intention.
Rant Over.
As someone who came through EFT in the last 10 years and took the direct root to METS I would question the implication that we all "scraped through EFT" and then swanned off to Multis.
Firstly, that implies that METS is an easy course and although I'm sure that it is easier than Valley / Shawbury, it is still a challenging course requiring dedication and flying ability.
Secondly, it implies that all those who don't get recommended to go to Tucanos wouldn't make it through the course and possibly progress to Valley and beyond.
I am quite bitter that I didn't get sent to Linton but not because I'm deluding myself that I should be in the Red Arrows by now (fat chance) if it wasn't for some dodgy streaming decision. I am bitter that this do-it-on-the-cheap flying training system doesn't provide a BFT course for all trainee pilots (myself included) allowing a more solid basis for streaming decisions and a more rounded flying-skill-set to take to whatever stream you end up on (i.e. the sytem we had 10 years ago).
Finally, I am very happy being a multi-mate and would not want to change it, so i'm a bit p***ed off at Triple Hooked and Monty 77 apparently dismissing multi boys. Hopefully that wasn't their intention.
Rant Over.
Monty 77 is quite correct.
A common-core Wings course (as was the norm for around 25+ years) on a proper basic trainer such as the Tucano or Jet Provost before streaming is the only real answer.
Say 125 hours if you've been through non-streamed UAS to PFB/PIFG standard and 140 if you haven't?
And get rid of the irrelevance of EFT on the Plastic Spastic?
Seems to ring a bell.......
A common-core Wings course (as was the norm for around 25+ years) on a proper basic trainer such as the Tucano or Jet Provost before streaming is the only real answer.
Say 125 hours if you've been through non-streamed UAS to PFB/PIFG standard and 140 if you haven't?
And get rid of the irrelevance of EFT on the Plastic Spastic?
Seems to ring a bell.......
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My intention on starting this thread was never to diss multis.
My first choice from EFT was multi's and personally i'd love to be 'living the dream' with the multis boys!
I just wondered what others thought of the seemingly unfair decisions.
My first choice from EFT was multi's and personally i'd love to be 'living the dream' with the multis boys!
I just wondered what others thought of the seemingly unfair decisions.
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Vacancies and Attitude make the differance. For Vacancies read LUCK!
A grafter that has not made the grade but worked his nuts off will get a better deal than somebody who things that they are gods gift to aviation. I know of a Nav who is still a Nav only because he said the wrong thing overheard by the wrong OC whilst on his SH Fast track pilots course.
FJ ethos is very differant to multi crew and if all were to graduate from Valley before coming to SH, it would not be a better place for it. That said, those that have travelled this road recently have done very well for themselves.
If you are chopped, my advice would be to wind your neck in and bite the bullet, whilst descretly researching if there is any element of the training system that has let you down. If daddy is at star rank, that helps!
A grafter that has not made the grade but worked his nuts off will get a better deal than somebody who things that they are gods gift to aviation. I know of a Nav who is still a Nav only because he said the wrong thing overheard by the wrong OC whilst on his SH Fast track pilots course.
FJ ethos is very differant to multi crew and if all were to graduate from Valley before coming to SH, it would not be a better place for it. That said, those that have travelled this road recently have done very well for themselves.
If you are chopped, my advice would be to wind your neck in and bite the bullet, whilst descretly researching if there is any element of the training system that has let you down. If daddy is at star rank, that helps!
ChopRider
I was a QFI when the multi stream from BFT was closed down (mid 1970s). I had 2 students on the course which finished just prior to the announcement being made. Role disposal had already taken place, one was destined for Valley and the Gnat, the other had a posting notice for Oakington and the Varsity. I had greatly enjoyed instructing both of them. The Valley bound stude had exceptional ability (I do not use that phrase lightly) and was a pleasure to fly with. His compatriot was harder to instruct, but the effort he put into the course more than made up for the extra work, he achieved a creditable pass. So, one went to Valley and on to a successful career and the other was invited to apply for another branch or leave, no other options offered. I felt deeply sorry for him.
All I can say now is that you also have my sympathy, but you are not the first to have the rough end of the stick and you won't be the last. Life's a bitch and then.... well, it's up to you.
YS
I was a QFI when the multi stream from BFT was closed down (mid 1970s). I had 2 students on the course which finished just prior to the announcement being made. Role disposal had already taken place, one was destined for Valley and the Gnat, the other had a posting notice for Oakington and the Varsity. I had greatly enjoyed instructing both of them. The Valley bound stude had exceptional ability (I do not use that phrase lightly) and was a pleasure to fly with. His compatriot was harder to instruct, but the effort he put into the course more than made up for the extra work, he achieved a creditable pass. So, one went to Valley and on to a successful career and the other was invited to apply for another branch or leave, no other options offered. I felt deeply sorry for him.
All I can say now is that you also have my sympathy, but you are not the first to have the rough end of the stick and you won't be the last. Life's a bitch and then.... well, it's up to you.
YS
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Forgive me, but Spot4 may have a very good point! Maybe it's not just about flying. Maybe it IS about attitude.
When I were a lad, you could get chopped for a lack of OQs (ie neither having a positive attitude nor a concomitant realisation that you were not necessarily God's Gift to aviation) which, when coupled with a flying inability even at an OCU, could be your downfall. Moreover, if you hadn't been CR for 6 months, then you were only borrowing the wings, until you were. Same rule applies today!
Now I'm not suggesting anything particular in this case but I am sure that BEagle would agree that whilst the RAF is all about flying, this forum (not this thread) often displays attitudes that mark out the "yoof of today" and a lack of what used to be understood as gentlemanly behaviour.
Look deeper into the facts before you start pillorying from an opinionated position, chaps!
What say you, BEags old boy!?
When I were a lad, you could get chopped for a lack of OQs (ie neither having a positive attitude nor a concomitant realisation that you were not necessarily God's Gift to aviation) which, when coupled with a flying inability even at an OCU, could be your downfall. Moreover, if you hadn't been CR for 6 months, then you were only borrowing the wings, until you were. Same rule applies today!
Now I'm not suggesting anything particular in this case but I am sure that BEagle would agree that whilst the RAF is all about flying, this forum (not this thread) often displays attitudes that mark out the "yoof of today" and a lack of what used to be understood as gentlemanly behaviour.
Look deeper into the facts before you start pillorying from an opinionated position, chaps!
What say you, BEags old boy!?
The rationale as to who is re-streamed and who isn't is often a total mystery to those involved.
When I went through training, the multi stream suddenly stopped. At least, for streaming direct from RAFC or BFTS, that is. The only way to be re-streamed was to have passed the Gnat course and the pre-TWU Hunter course at the very least. Why? Because 'They' didn't need many ME pilots.
At Brawdy one day, our jovial Flt Cdr joked "Well, if you reckon this is all a bit too hard, you can always volunteer for choppers". "Bollocks, Boss" we said, "No bŁoody way!".
All except 2 individuals who went and knocked on his door, asking to volunteer for choppers. "The only chopping you'll get is from me. Good bye, you'll be out of here PDQ" was the response - and off they went to become navigators.......
I was suspended from the Killing Fields of 237 OCU (along with many others...) in 1977 and went to Biggin Hill for Aircrew Reselection. Amongst guys there was one chap from the Harrier OCU and another from the Lightning OCU. I got Vulcans, the Harrier mate got F4s and the Lightning chap went to Hercules, later becoming very successful indeed. Interestingly, there were quite a few others down there and it was only those who'd taken it on the chin and got stuck in who were reselected back to flying. Even if that meant having to be deputy OC GD at Biggin as I was! Those who sat around sulking or playing Risk in the ante-room didn't last long - but it wasn't all gloom as there was a continuous supply of WRAFlettes who'd failed the old Fighter Controller course to add some interest to life.....
A lot of it is about attitude as foldingwings rightly says. But there's also a great deal of being in the wrong place at the wrong time as well.
But 'yoof' attitudes as exhibited on some of the Mil Forum threads (and I don't mean this one) clearly show that some people with the Wrong Stuff are getting through. Such as the little scrote trying to flog HM's property on ebay. Stealing from your mates, effectively - and something I was taught was one of the worst crimes in a society which depends upon trust to such a large extent.
Here endeth the lesson.
But good luck to all those who were unsuccessful at Shawbury. Hope that you get back in the saddle at some stage before too long.
When I went through training, the multi stream suddenly stopped. At least, for streaming direct from RAFC or BFTS, that is. The only way to be re-streamed was to have passed the Gnat course and the pre-TWU Hunter course at the very least. Why? Because 'They' didn't need many ME pilots.
At Brawdy one day, our jovial Flt Cdr joked "Well, if you reckon this is all a bit too hard, you can always volunteer for choppers". "Bollocks, Boss" we said, "No bŁoody way!".
All except 2 individuals who went and knocked on his door, asking to volunteer for choppers. "The only chopping you'll get is from me. Good bye, you'll be out of here PDQ" was the response - and off they went to become navigators.......
I was suspended from the Killing Fields of 237 OCU (along with many others...) in 1977 and went to Biggin Hill for Aircrew Reselection. Amongst guys there was one chap from the Harrier OCU and another from the Lightning OCU. I got Vulcans, the Harrier mate got F4s and the Lightning chap went to Hercules, later becoming very successful indeed. Interestingly, there were quite a few others down there and it was only those who'd taken it on the chin and got stuck in who were reselected back to flying. Even if that meant having to be deputy OC GD at Biggin as I was! Those who sat around sulking or playing Risk in the ante-room didn't last long - but it wasn't all gloom as there was a continuous supply of WRAFlettes who'd failed the old Fighter Controller course to add some interest to life.....
A lot of it is about attitude as foldingwings rightly says. But there's also a great deal of being in the wrong place at the wrong time as well.
But 'yoof' attitudes as exhibited on some of the Mil Forum threads (and I don't mean this one) clearly show that some people with the Wrong Stuff are getting through. Such as the little scrote trying to flog HM's property on ebay. Stealing from your mates, effectively - and something I was taught was one of the worst crimes in a society which depends upon trust to such a large extent.
Here endeth the lesson.
But good luck to all those who were unsuccessful at Shawbury. Hope that you get back in the saddle at some stage before too long.
Failure ?
foldingwings and BEagle have once again got it right.
If I can add my threepenn'orth, another ever-present factor is the lack of foresight of our political masters.
My flying career was constantly messed up by both me and the present Government.
At 16 (and one day!), I went through the old pre-assessment scheme and was told to apply for a Cadetship when I was old enough.
At 17, at the time of the Duncan-Sandys' White Paper, I washed out completely at Hornchurch.
Not to be put off, I took a year out and reapplied to our Naval brethren in the January, was in uniform by the end of April, and had my Wings via
a through-jet course within two years. ( No holding then!)
Denis Healey (Labour Defence Secretary then) was, by this time, delving into the time-honoured pastime of screwing the FAA by scrapping five of the seven carriers we had when I joined.
I mentioned earlier that I never made things totally easy for myself either and, as a result of not being able to face being washed out of the Strike world, just short of CR (to fly Gannets.) I let myself down at a pre-chop interview by sounding off about our political masters and trying to blame them.
I was out - totally - on the street.
Took me a year to get it together and then got myself a Commercial instructing job prior to a successful Airline career.
I'm out to grass now, too old at 60, and am enjoying my continuing career as much, if not more so, than ever before, with work every day mainly teaching IF and Aerobatics.
The Moral ? DON'T EVER GIVE UP. If you want to fly as much as I did, you'll find a way.
Good Luck, Sleeve.
If I can add my threepenn'orth, another ever-present factor is the lack of foresight of our political masters.
My flying career was constantly messed up by both me and the present Government.
At 16 (and one day!), I went through the old pre-assessment scheme and was told to apply for a Cadetship when I was old enough.
At 17, at the time of the Duncan-Sandys' White Paper, I washed out completely at Hornchurch.
Not to be put off, I took a year out and reapplied to our Naval brethren in the January, was in uniform by the end of April, and had my Wings via
a through-jet course within two years. ( No holding then!)
Denis Healey (Labour Defence Secretary then) was, by this time, delving into the time-honoured pastime of screwing the FAA by scrapping five of the seven carriers we had when I joined.
I mentioned earlier that I never made things totally easy for myself either and, as a result of not being able to face being washed out of the Strike world, just short of CR (to fly Gannets.) I let myself down at a pre-chop interview by sounding off about our political masters and trying to blame them.
I was out - totally - on the street.
Took me a year to get it together and then got myself a Commercial instructing job prior to a successful Airline career.
I'm out to grass now, too old at 60, and am enjoying my continuing career as much, if not more so, than ever before, with work every day mainly teaching IF and Aerobatics.
The Moral ? DON'T EVER GIVE UP. If you want to fly as much as I did, you'll find a way.
Good Luck, Sleeve.
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Sorry to hear you slipped on a banana skin BEagle. 237 was indeed a tough challenge, but I wouldn't subscribe to your inference that 'many' fell by the wayside - my recollection is that there were few who didn't make it. Good fun course - looking forward to the Blitz in December, along with the several hundred others that did make it.
Sorry chaps - gone off thread a bit!
Sorry chaps - gone off thread a bit!
You went through that place before me. When I was there, no first tourist plt/nav crew had graduated for the previous 2 years. But the OCU flew 100% of their hours whilst graduating about 50% of their students..... We lost 2 out of 3 pilots and 1 out of 3 navs.
But sweeping changes followed about 18 months later. Not before time.
But sweeping changes followed about 18 months later. Not before time.