Justice for failed pilots?
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This is an understandably emmotive subject, after all to most of us it's a dream before a job. But at the nuts and bolts level it's a job to be filled, with the best person available in all respects at the time. To go back to the start, the guys that were much better at Shawbs may have been poor at IF or under the pressure of the OCU demonstrated undesirable crew skills making them unsuitable for METS. Attitude is a big thing but there is not one attribute that trumps any number of poor ones - even the best pilot in the world would be chopped if he was a nob that couldn't work with others (I'm not trying to setup any single seat jokes). I think we can safely say that none of us would want to pick bad eggs over good ones, there is always a whole picture that individuals perhaps only see part of.....
So, finally, in an attempt to soften the blow, when I came through guys had to pass FJ standard at Linton to stand any chance of even being streamed, as was mentioned by someone earlier, I'm certain we lost a lot of peole then that were a lot better than many of us today - the RAF just didn't need them and that was that, it doesn't owe any of us a job!
Sorry to the unfortunate few, however crappy the reason was there was one at the time and thats life.
So, finally, in an attempt to soften the blow, when I came through guys had to pass FJ standard at Linton to stand any chance of even being streamed, as was mentioned by someone earlier, I'm certain we lost a lot of peole then that were a lot better than many of us today - the RAF just didn't need them and that was that, it doesn't owe any of us a job!
Sorry to the unfortunate few, however crappy the reason was there was one at the time and thats life.
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I know I might be thrown heavy ordnance at for saying this but I will anyway.
During my aptitude at the German AF I've had the pleasure to meet the head of the AF psychological dept. in person for a three-hour interview to talk about every bull**** you can think of and he told me that they suggest to some applicants with outstanding skills and test results (he referred to the top5% of the 2% of applicants that actually get the go for flying training) that they do not join the AF if they are prevented from taking the FJ route for medical reasons. He said, both multi engines and choppers might not give these high potential candidates what they need, leading inevitably to job dissatisfaction.
Might that ring a bell?
Barnstormer
During my aptitude at the German AF I've had the pleasure to meet the head of the AF psychological dept. in person for a three-hour interview to talk about every bull**** you can think of and he told me that they suggest to some applicants with outstanding skills and test results (he referred to the top5% of the 2% of applicants that actually get the go for flying training) that they do not join the AF if they are prevented from taking the FJ route for medical reasons. He said, both multi engines and choppers might not give these high potential candidates what they need, leading inevitably to job dissatisfaction.
Might that ring a bell?
Barnstormer
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It's Just Bad Timing......
ChopRider,
I think that sadly we just have to accept that at all times, things come down to timing. At the moment, the ME stream is around 70 pilots overborne. Inevitably, the ME stream has tightened the inlet pipe to allow for natural wastage at the older end of the scale to 'thin-down' the numbers (if i can use 'thin' and 'ME stream' in the same sentence
)
In answer to an earlier point though, we can't shut off the pipe totally as this would lead to a gap in the system for later years.
Certainly at the EFT level the emphasis has changed. Although the output standard is still the same, EFT graduates now must be fit all streams - so none of the old 'Fit ME only but a good lad in the bar' type recommends. This, in turn should help raise the standard of the RAF as a whole.
The bottom line? It's a tough time to get in and on to the front line, but if you're good enough, you'll get there.
Uncle G
I think that sadly we just have to accept that at all times, things come down to timing. At the moment, the ME stream is around 70 pilots overborne. Inevitably, the ME stream has tightened the inlet pipe to allow for natural wastage at the older end of the scale to 'thin-down' the numbers (if i can use 'thin' and 'ME stream' in the same sentence
)In answer to an earlier point though, we can't shut off the pipe totally as this would lead to a gap in the system for later years.
Certainly at the EFT level the emphasis has changed. Although the output standard is still the same, EFT graduates now must be fit all streams - so none of the old 'Fit ME only but a good lad in the bar' type recommends. This, in turn should help raise the standard of the RAF as a whole.
The bottom line? It's a tough time to get in and on to the front line, but if you're good enough, you'll get there.
Uncle G
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I have been interested in reading this thread as we antipodeans have looked at streaming pilots for a while and thankfully we still have not gone down that road. Where we see similar problems is the difference between the Army and the Air Force. All three services attend BFTS on CT-4/B with the Navy and Air Force at the end of course, progressing to 2FTS on the PC-9/A. The Army on the other hand will go off and do their helo training. The problem lies in that the Army students at Tamworth (BFTS) are generally given a little more leeway as “we all know the standard doesn’t have to be as high” This obvious causes frustration and angst from both sides. 2FTS graduates a generally high level of student and the Air Force (and Navy) can be certain that the majority should be able to pass any operational conversion course, with the exception of fast jet. I think it works well.
I have always found the system often seems unfair at times (even ours and I think we actually reasonably good at giving the guys and girls a fair go.) but that’s life I am afraid. I have seen people scrubbed (chopped) that only a few years earlier would more than likely passed. Standards change all the time as do the Service’s needs. I guess the point is, if you are lucky enough (and good enough) to achieve what you want, to remember to try where possible to give the same opportunity to someone else, with in the confines of the requirements of the “Company”. Also, most who are scrubbed aren’t really told the full story or are slightly dillusionary which is part of the reason they got the chop anyway!!!!
Seriously, often what seems unfair may in fact be far more reasonable than they realise.
I have always found the system often seems unfair at times (even ours and I think we actually reasonably good at giving the guys and girls a fair go.) but that’s life I am afraid. I have seen people scrubbed (chopped) that only a few years earlier would more than likely passed. Standards change all the time as do the Service’s needs. I guess the point is, if you are lucky enough (and good enough) to achieve what you want, to remember to try where possible to give the same opportunity to someone else, with in the confines of the requirements of the “Company”. Also, most who are scrubbed aren’t really told the full story or are slightly dillusionary which is part of the reason they got the chop anyway!!!!
Seriously, often what seems unfair may in fact be far more reasonable than they realise.
"All three services attend BFTS on CT-4/B with the Navy and Air Force at the end of course, progressing to 2FTS on the PC-9/A."
Interesting that. The RAF used to put everyone through BFTS on the JP with perhaps some UAS or EFTS Bulldog/Chipmunk time before that. Not now though; only the FJ stream do a core BFTS course - the RW and ME just get a few hours on the wretched Grob, then onto lead-in training.....
Hope you guys in Oz manage to maintain the quality standard of putting all your pilots through a proper BFTS! Lucky them!!
Interesting that. The RAF used to put everyone through BFTS on the JP with perhaps some UAS or EFTS Bulldog/Chipmunk time before that. Not now though; only the FJ stream do a core BFTS course - the RW and ME just get a few hours on the wretched Grob, then onto lead-in training.....
Hope you guys in Oz manage to maintain the quality standard of putting all your pilots through a proper BFTS! Lucky them!!
don't know if anyones mentioned it, but the same applies to guys going to linton at the mo/in the recent past....
Get streamed multis from eft and ur safe, come to linton and get chopped.... out on your ear! Makes sense to someone somewhere!
Get streamed multis from eft and ur safe, come to linton and get chopped.... out on your ear! Makes sense to someone somewhere!
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
As far as the PTC-OCU divide, it is not as clear cut as that.
PTC still retain an interest in the ab initio until they have gone through the OCU and qualified on the sqn by the 6 month point.
Also, on the 'cheap' PTC courses they will do their utmost to get you through. On the OCUs they will do their utmost to get you through on the 'expensive' metal in the prescribed number of hours at the presecribed training rate. Extra sorties and extra time all throw doubts on capacity on the front line.
PTC still retain an interest in the ab initio until they have gone through the OCU and qualified on the sqn by the 6 month point.
Also, on the 'cheap' PTC courses they will do their utmost to get you through. On the OCUs they will do their utmost to get you through on the 'expensive' metal in the prescribed number of hours at the presecribed training rate. Extra sorties and extra time all throw doubts on capacity on the front line.
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Personally I think chopped should mean chopped. If you get chopped, time to look for another employer/career. As mentioned earlier, sending everyone through either BFJTS or the Hawk would result in a better standard of pilot across all fleets. I know some people who shouldn't be allowed outside unsupervised let alone given an aeroplane to play with; yet they filter on down and get carried through the training system. Make everyone pass to a FJ standard and stream from there I say. No offence to those of you who have been chopped, I sympathise but tis my honest opinion.
flyboy007, that's what the RAF used to do until the silly 'BJFT' or whatever it's called elitisim started.
It used to be known as 'Wings' standard; in the early '70s. Pass that to a uniform standard, then streamed to AFT on the Gnat, Pig or Whirlwind. Or AFT + TWU (Gnat/Hunter) for prospective pointy-heads.
You also got a decent amount of solo flying at RAFC or BFTS as well....
It used to be known as 'Wings' standard; in the early '70s. Pass that to a uniform standard, then streamed to AFT on the Gnat, Pig or Whirlwind. Or AFT + TWU (Gnat/Hunter) for prospective pointy-heads.
You also got a decent amount of solo flying at RAFC or BFTS as well....
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All very well in theory flyboy007 but who is going to pay for everyone to get to FJ standard, however marginally and say ok mate of you go and fly wokkas?
Arguably, streaming people post EFT on the Plastic Spastic, as Beags likes to call it is maybe a little hasty but thats the way it is and it all comes down to cost. A better idea would be to let everyone have a go on the tincan and take it from there. This is what happened recently with guys getting their wings at Linton and being told they werent competitive for AFT at Valley.
Maybe with the advent of the MFTS in the coming few years the system will change but I suspect that it wont be the way we want. I recall hearing an MFTS rep at BAe claiming that once you have gone first solo, what is the point in doing any more solos? He claimed that you dont learn anything on a solo and that they are a waste of money. Now firstly, this chap was a Nav and secondly, I personally have learnt a hell of a lot on solos, including scaring myself sh!tless and thinking, hmmm wont do that again!
It is the way it is and it seems to work, we get enough guys through the system to fly the pointy jets on the front line and that is after all what the IPS is all about.
Arguably, streaming people post EFT on the Plastic Spastic, as Beags likes to call it is maybe a little hasty but thats the way it is and it all comes down to cost. A better idea would be to let everyone have a go on the tincan and take it from there. This is what happened recently with guys getting their wings at Linton and being told they werent competitive for AFT at Valley.
Maybe with the advent of the MFTS in the coming few years the system will change but I suspect that it wont be the way we want. I recall hearing an MFTS rep at BAe claiming that once you have gone first solo, what is the point in doing any more solos? He claimed that you dont learn anything on a solo and that they are a waste of money. Now firstly, this chap was a Nav and secondly, I personally have learnt a hell of a lot on solos, including scaring myself sh!tless and thinking, hmmm wont do that again!
It is the way it is and it seems to work, we get enough guys through the system to fly the pointy jets on the front line and that is after all what the IPS is all about.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
In the 80s at nav school, weak navs in basics were streamed fast-jet on the principle of sink or swim. There was a general expectation that a weak nav could be eased through nav school on to trucks so the swift chop was seen to be more assured.
The same may apply to pilot training. Weak pilots may hack the copilot - 1st pilot route which is what the V-force had in the 70s and the truck fleet in the 70s and 80s.
The same may apply to pilot training. Weak pilots may hack the copilot - 1st pilot route which is what the V-force had in the 70s and the truck fleet in the 70s and 80s.
It's not just an adventure....
it's just a job!
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To All,
If anyone gets CT'd from RW, at least one would hope they have the hands you need for FW. Remember the term hands AND feet we heard as a prerequisite for wings?
As a 25+ year RW type (ASW-HS423, SAR-YMJ, CIV-Bandage 1 &3, Currently Offshore Heavy Metal-61), you can get by without the feet on FW but not on RW. It's a fact of life.
If you cant hover, your Queer. Sorry, I appologise to the "Gay Pilots Association".
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
If anyone gets CT'd from RW, at least one would hope they have the hands you need for FW. Remember the term hands AND feet we heard as a prerequisite for wings?
As a 25+ year RW type (ASW-HS423, SAR-YMJ, CIV-Bandage 1 &3, Currently Offshore Heavy Metal-61), you can get by without the feet on FW but not on RW. It's a fact of life.
If you cant hover, your Queer. Sorry, I appologise to the "Gay Pilots Association".
Cheers,
OffshoreIgor
All rings loadsa bells. When I went through training, you had to pass the JP course to be considered for helis (which I wanted). Now you have to (effectively) fail! However, the suspension boards do not come to any decisions lightly - it would probably amaze most of the students up for the chop just how much soul searching goes on. BUT, in times of change and budget restrictions it will only be those most likely to succeed who get to multis AND only if there are any slots. If you are one of those who didn't, you just have to accept you're not good enough! If we were still on the old scheme you would almost certainly have been chopped at Linton/Leeming/Syerston or Cranwell!!
Every cloud...silver lining???? I cannot imagine how it must feel to have your dreams dashed in the way that 'chopping' must do, however, most of the choppees I saw at Strawbs in my time there were actually relieved in the end...the pressure and uncertainty were finally off, to a man they all went Multis and loved it/did very well....one's on C17's as a Flt Cdr now. With the civvy market expanding there has to be viable career oppotunities in that direction....make the most of them!
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I stuck with helos and Wings of Gold, so didn't get to fly 'trucks' until BA. With hindsight, given an option or a descending guillotine, dunno what I would have done. However, the salient point is really that whatever system is being followed at the time, it will never be 100% fair to everybody. You'll just have to live with it. However, it seems to work no differently in the Airlines anyway.
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Unfortuantely, the big issue here is timing. I got chopped from 705 Sqn at Shawbury in 2003. There were 3 of us in the same boat who all got mulits. But, others who were chopped a few months before or after us found that the slots had gone. The lucky ones got nav. Loads of my mates (some just hours from wings) now have to compete for ground branches or PVR.
Unfortunately the axe has sharpened across flying trg. I can't really say this without sounding like an arse, but I got chopped at the right time.
I hope all goes well for your mates
Cheers
1000hrs
Unfortunately the axe has sharpened across flying trg. I can't really say this without sounding like an arse, but I got chopped at the right time.
I hope all goes well for your mates
Cheers
1000hrs
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It seems little has changed in RAF management since the early 1970s when I joined. Writing as one who did some chopping, IMHO the important thing is to put it behind you asap and concentrate on mastering your new role. When things change there may be opportunities. I knew several ex-multi and ex-chopper pilots who successfully crossed-over to FJ after a tour or two, some of whom had been chopped from FJ earlier in their careers. Even the odd ex-navigator or two. There was also an ex-V force AEO who became an absolute ace as a Harrier pilot.
"Get streamed multis from eft and ur safe, come to linton and get chopped.... out on your ear! Makes sense to someone somewhere!"
Well, wasn't entirely like that when I was there. With restreaming for guys who passed the course looming, lots of rumours flew around that you needed to pass Prog Cx or BHT or whatever to be "certain" of a multis/RW seat if you were subsequently chopped.
What actually happened was you were restreamed if you were a good bloke who had worked hard and had an element of potential for something. The couple of guys who were chopped in the Prog Cx-BHT phase who didn't end up flying something else were chopped for reasons above and beyond failing the odd trip.
Work hard, be a nice bloke, get rewarded, it seemed to be; same at the end of the course. A couple of guys from my lot finally got the RW slot they had actually always wanted after not really enjoying the Tucano at all.
Well, wasn't entirely like that when I was there. With restreaming for guys who passed the course looming, lots of rumours flew around that you needed to pass Prog Cx or BHT or whatever to be "certain" of a multis/RW seat if you were subsequently chopped.
What actually happened was you were restreamed if you were a good bloke who had worked hard and had an element of potential for something. The couple of guys who were chopped in the Prog Cx-BHT phase who didn't end up flying something else were chopped for reasons above and beyond failing the odd trip.
Work hard, be a nice bloke, get rewarded, it seemed to be; same at the end of the course. A couple of guys from my lot finally got the RW slot they had actually always wanted after not really enjoying the Tucano at all.
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Good posts guys-interesting to read about all the many-spangled faces of flying training before my time. However, there are, at the moment, several injustices in the system, which to my mind are morally lacking and should be addressed.
At the moment, the 'streaming confirmation' board that was introduced at the end of Linton back in 2004 has apparently been cancelled once more. Before the 'streaming confirmation' boards were initiated, all who passed Linton progressed to Valley, and the system was set up to reduce the FJ IPS and address the backlog of holds-so we were told. Apparently the 'sitch' is now that if you foul up during BFJT you're out of flying completely, if you get to the end then you go directly to Valley. Now surely this is double jeopardy. If you have marginal recommends coming out of EFT, and win a place at BFJT, then you may end up worse off than if you had gone to Multis straight away. (I know at least one person who ended up with nothing for whom this is certainly the case.)
Those of us (yes I am bitter, nay incensed) who through no fault of their own passed through in 2003/4, met the standard (continuously reassured that these had not been changed) and were not chopped, now find themselves in their second or third choice stream, and STILL holding for longer than their FJ mates. BFJT students are still being trained on the same syllabus that we were, and provided they keep their nose clean, onwards to Valley they go. Here I am, on hold having already passed the course with no chance of sitting in a Hawk. Worse still, some people already had their joining instructions for Valley and had arranged their move when they were told that, subject to a streaming confirmation board, they were now off to multis after some more hold! Surely on a business case alone, it is cheaper to continue with those who have already passed the course than to keep bringing more studes through?!
For me, the answer is simple: Too many pilots = cut down recruiting but accept the commitment to the guys you have already tipped into the system. For an organisation that hammers on about integrity in its personnel, this stinks like a farmer's slurry pit.
At the moment, the 'streaming confirmation' board that was introduced at the end of Linton back in 2004 has apparently been cancelled once more. Before the 'streaming confirmation' boards were initiated, all who passed Linton progressed to Valley, and the system was set up to reduce the FJ IPS and address the backlog of holds-so we were told. Apparently the 'sitch' is now that if you foul up during BFJT you're out of flying completely, if you get to the end then you go directly to Valley. Now surely this is double jeopardy. If you have marginal recommends coming out of EFT, and win a place at BFJT, then you may end up worse off than if you had gone to Multis straight away. (I know at least one person who ended up with nothing for whom this is certainly the case.)
Those of us (yes I am bitter, nay incensed) who through no fault of their own passed through in 2003/4, met the standard (continuously reassured that these had not been changed) and were not chopped, now find themselves in their second or third choice stream, and STILL holding for longer than their FJ mates. BFJT students are still being trained on the same syllabus that we were, and provided they keep their nose clean, onwards to Valley they go. Here I am, on hold having already passed the course with no chance of sitting in a Hawk. Worse still, some people already had their joining instructions for Valley and had arranged their move when they were told that, subject to a streaming confirmation board, they were now off to multis after some more hold! Surely on a business case alone, it is cheaper to continue with those who have already passed the course than to keep bringing more studes through?!
For me, the answer is simple: Too many pilots = cut down recruiting but accept the commitment to the guys you have already tipped into the system. For an organisation that hammers on about integrity in its personnel, this stinks like a farmer's slurry pit.