- The Canberra - Unsafe in 1950, Still unsafe
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- The Canberra - Unsafe in 1950, Still unsafe
So a Canberra has killed another 2 fine RAF aviators.
Wearing their country's uniform with pride, despite some of the best flying training the world can give, they flew a fifty-year old aircraft type, and it killed them.
The Canberra was unsafe when it entered service, and is still unsafe now.
Ground them all. They belong in museums.
Fine pilots deserve fine cockpits, not funerals and graves
Wearing their country's uniform with pride, despite some of the best flying training the world can give, they flew a fifty-year old aircraft type, and it killed them.
The Canberra was unsafe when it entered service, and is still unsafe now.
Ground them all. They belong in museums.
Fine pilots deserve fine cockpits, not funerals and graves
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The Canberra
Try this for local news;
new.edp24.co.uk and then all get your heads together on this forum and deliberate. Post your findings to the MOD who I'm sure will be pleased to review your speculations.
new.edp24.co.uk and then all get your heads together on this forum and deliberate. Post your findings to the MOD who I'm sure will be pleased to review your speculations.
Less than 12 hours have passed since the accident and you want to start speculating.
Why must it be that we have to blame something/one without having a clear grasp on all the facts?
Let the board of enquiry do it's job and then lets comment.
Is it not enough that two people have lost their lives? do we need to invent stories as well?
My thoughts are with the families of the two lost crew.
Why must it be that we have to blame something/one without having a clear grasp on all the facts?
Let the board of enquiry do it's job and then lets comment.
Is it not enough that two people have lost their lives? do we need to invent stories as well?
My thoughts are with the families of the two lost crew.
I can't quite see the Canberra as a widow maker in the same way the F104 Starfighter was. If it was such a death trap, as opined by 2 Liter Peter, how come it has lasted 50 years in service?
I note that on another thread someone produced crash stats for the Meteor, does anyone have any similar stats for the Canberra?
I note that on another thread someone produced crash stats for the Meteor, does anyone have any similar stats for the Canberra?
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Do you not think that so soon after this tragic accident that our thoughts should be focussed on those involved and helping them to cope with their grief - and not to add to this grief.
It is little comfort to start using phrases such as
"The Canberra was unsafe when it entered service, and is still unsafe now."
Show some thought - please.
It is little comfort to start using phrases such as
"The Canberra was unsafe when it entered service, and is still unsafe now."
Show some thought - please.
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Even the biggest lovers of gallows humour respectfully wait before trying to make the best of a bad situation. Trying to suggest that this accident should never have happened so soon is just wrong in my book.
They were brave souls regardless of the situation.
They were brave souls regardless of the situation.
As one who had 3 wonderful tours on the Cranberry, and inevitably lost mates during that time, I am very sorry to hear about this.
But on those occasions in the past, after the shock and sadness it was nothing more than natural to ask "What the hell went wrong?" both so we could learn from it for our own safety and understand for our peace of mind. So we were "speculating" almost immediately, knowing that speculation was different from certainty, and I don't see anything wrong with it. Or rather, I know what's wrong with it, but see it as natural and instinctive.
And I can think of at least one BoI whose findings were most unlikely - speculation in fact, even if it was informed speculation.
But on those occasions in the past, after the shock and sadness it was nothing more than natural to ask "What the hell went wrong?" both so we could learn from it for our own safety and understand for our peace of mind. So we were "speculating" almost immediately, knowing that speculation was different from certainty, and I don't see anything wrong with it. Or rather, I know what's wrong with it, but see it as natural and instinctive.
And I can think of at least one BoI whose findings were most unlikely - speculation in fact, even if it was informed speculation.
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Learning from Crashes.
If I have a fatal crash tomorrow I know that all of my aviation friends will be sad and think of the effects on my family.
But I want you all to learn as quickly as possible from any mistakes I may have made and to ponder on the possible causes as much as you can and to construct possible scenarios from the bits of information you have.
This has to be the best way to have those coming along behind learn as much as possible from the failings of others or of the aircraft we love so much.
Too often on this forum we let the opportunity fade into nothing and forego the learning process.
I'll speculate that the Canberra went in because of inexperience of the crew with its asymmetric viciousness.
And I know of a pilot of a Canberra Down Under who may have second thoughts about his ability to handle that aircraft adequately for a recovery from an actual asymmetric. We may just end up saving HIS life and the aircraft.
NOW let us learn a bit about that.
It is a vital part of preventing future accidents/misshandling/running into rock filled clouds etc etc.
If I have a fatal crash tomorrow I know that all of my aviation friends will be sad and think of the effects on my family.
But I want you all to learn as quickly as possible from any mistakes I may have made and to ponder on the possible causes as much as you can and to construct possible scenarios from the bits of information you have.
This has to be the best way to have those coming along behind learn as much as possible from the failings of others or of the aircraft we love so much.
Too often on this forum we let the opportunity fade into nothing and forego the learning process.
I'll speculate that the Canberra went in because of inexperience of the crew with its asymmetric viciousness.
And I know of a pilot of a Canberra Down Under who may have second thoughts about his ability to handle that aircraft adequately for a recovery from an actual asymmetric. We may just end up saving HIS life and the aircraft.
NOW let us learn a bit about that.
It is a vital part of preventing future accidents/misshandling/running into rock filled clouds etc etc.
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Let us rest this thread for 48 hours. I understand your sentiment but now is not appropriate. Let us drink to fellow aviators and celebrate their achievements, they are hero's. There by the grace of God go I. I raise my glass to them!
Where we go in 48 hours is a different matter. All spillen mastikes difinlately alcofrol indiced.
R
Where we go in 48 hours is a different matter. All spillen mastikes difinlately alcofrol indiced.
R
Oh for Pete's sake.
We all know that the Canberra is an ageing airframe, but let's not get whipped up into a frenzy.
A modern aircraft with the Canberra's assymetric handling characteristics probably wouldn't get a release to service, but then nor (I hope) would an aircraft with the 737's rudder problems, or the Classic 747's fuel tank problems. And that's fine, as long as all reasonable steps are taken to ameliorate these known issues, in which case the operator is, surely, diligently exercising his duty of care to the crews. It would be different if this was a catastrophic new fatigue failure, directly related to the aircraft's age.
But you can't ground every aircraft type that doesn't entirely meet today's safety standards, and especially not for a problem that has been known about and managed for decades, and where training has been revised and refined to make it safer.
People are aware of the Canberra's lethal reputation with an engine out, and its accident rate now is modest (probably no worse than the Harrier accident rate). Statistically, an assymetric Canberra crash was probably due. What a shame it had to be a fatal one (some have not been, including one at Marham IIRC). Just as another Harrier must, statistically, be likely to fall out of the hover and damage itself, and just as eventually, some young Harrier pilot will again muddle his nozzle lever and the throttle.
In view of the fact that one of the occupants did get out, I wonder whether zero zero seats would have made any difference? Does anyone know whether the escapee was the nav, the p u/t or the instructor?
We all know that the Canberra is an ageing airframe, but let's not get whipped up into a frenzy.
A modern aircraft with the Canberra's assymetric handling characteristics probably wouldn't get a release to service, but then nor (I hope) would an aircraft with the 737's rudder problems, or the Classic 747's fuel tank problems. And that's fine, as long as all reasonable steps are taken to ameliorate these known issues, in which case the operator is, surely, diligently exercising his duty of care to the crews. It would be different if this was a catastrophic new fatigue failure, directly related to the aircraft's age.
But you can't ground every aircraft type that doesn't entirely meet today's safety standards, and especially not for a problem that has been known about and managed for decades, and where training has been revised and refined to make it safer.
People are aware of the Canberra's lethal reputation with an engine out, and its accident rate now is modest (probably no worse than the Harrier accident rate). Statistically, an assymetric Canberra crash was probably due. What a shame it had to be a fatal one (some have not been, including one at Marham IIRC). Just as another Harrier must, statistically, be likely to fall out of the hover and damage itself, and just as eventually, some young Harrier pilot will again muddle his nozzle lever and the throttle.
In view of the fact that one of the occupants did get out, I wonder whether zero zero seats would have made any difference? Does anyone know whether the escapee was the nav, the p u/t or the instructor?
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Jackonicko
From the BBC website
RAF probe training crash deaths
The crew were flying a Canberra-type aircraft
Accident investigators are trying to determine how two RAF pilots died and another was injured while practising emergency landings at a fighter base.
The accident happened on the runway at RAF Marham, Norfolk, at about 2230 BST on Thursday during landing.
An RAF board of inquiry has been convened and investigators will examine the damaged aircraft, say senior officers at RAF Marham.
Investigators will also speak to the navigator, who survived the crash.
The injured crew member is being treated in hospital after being hurt when ejecting from the aircraft.
Base officials say the two pilots who died were also thought to have attempted to eject
From the BBC website
RAF probe training crash deaths
The crew were flying a Canberra-type aircraft
Accident investigators are trying to determine how two RAF pilots died and another was injured while practising emergency landings at a fighter base.
The accident happened on the runway at RAF Marham, Norfolk, at about 2230 BST on Thursday during landing.
An RAF board of inquiry has been convened and investigators will examine the damaged aircraft, say senior officers at RAF Marham.
Investigators will also speak to the navigator, who survived the crash.
The injured crew member is being treated in hospital after being hurt when ejecting from the aircraft.
Base officials say the two pilots who died were also thought to have attempted to eject
Reply to Jackonicko's Post
Re Zero Zero seats
I took a look earlier at this grainy picture on Sky's story about the crash (if it doesn't show as a link cut and paste to your browser)
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...149995,00.html
I did think at the time - to a untrained eye - it looked like they all had tried to punch out, in fact my first reaction was maybe if they'd sat still the outcome could have been different (easy for me to say after the event but that's what I'm sure others will think when they see the pic)?
I'm not military, but am familiar with Marham and the Canberra story, I'm afraid I disagree with those that feel it's acceptable to allow our military forces (regardless of Navy/Airforce/Army/Marines) to use obsolete or elderly equipment, it is a shocking practice which no doubt will play some role either large or small in the sad loss of these crew members. 50 years for any Aircraft, is simply beyond reason and is purely due to a lack of funding - nothing else.
Sincere condolonces to all concerned. God rest their souls.
I took a look earlier at this grainy picture on Sky's story about the crash (if it doesn't show as a link cut and paste to your browser)
http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0...149995,00.html
I did think at the time - to a untrained eye - it looked like they all had tried to punch out, in fact my first reaction was maybe if they'd sat still the outcome could have been different (easy for me to say after the event but that's what I'm sure others will think when they see the pic)?
I'm not military, but am familiar with Marham and the Canberra story, I'm afraid I disagree with those that feel it's acceptable to allow our military forces (regardless of Navy/Airforce/Army/Marines) to use obsolete or elderly equipment, it is a shocking practice which no doubt will play some role either large or small in the sad loss of these crew members. 50 years for any Aircraft, is simply beyond reason and is purely due to a lack of funding - nothing else.
Sincere condolonces to all concerned. God rest their souls.
Presumably you'd ground every remaining Moth, Dak (DC-3), Spitfire and Stearman?
The age of the aircraft is IRRELEVANT.
Unless you ground any aircraft which would not gain a release, or be certificated, if submitted as a new aircraft type today, then you have no case whatsoever.
Moreover, the Canberra is still in service because it is uniquely well fitted to fulfill a vital role, and indeed does so better than the U-2R/U-2S.
1) Seats fired on impact?
2) Ejected outside seat parameters? (in which case would more recent seats have helped?)
3) Cost of retrofitting zero-zero seats to any remaining types not already so equipped?
4) A survivable impact?
What a tragic waste of good men.
The age of the aircraft is IRRELEVANT.
Unless you ground any aircraft which would not gain a release, or be certificated, if submitted as a new aircraft type today, then you have no case whatsoever.
Moreover, the Canberra is still in service because it is uniquely well fitted to fulfill a vital role, and indeed does so better than the U-2R/U-2S.
1) Seats fired on impact?
2) Ejected outside seat parameters? (in which case would more recent seats have helped?)
3) Cost of retrofitting zero-zero seats to any remaining types not already so equipped?
4) A survivable impact?
What a tragic waste of good men.
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The best respect these crew can get is BAe or someone else get off there ar$e and persuade the Airships to get going on a new PR aircraft which will do the job going forward. Once Canberra goes, the capability goes. But capability loss seems to be the new fad at Treasury/MOD, especially now they think drones are all singing and dancing...