Pay as You Starve!
Cunning Artificer
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As a long departed SNCO I'm astonished at what has come to pass. Supplier Partner? Core Catering Manpower? Geeze!
On the subject of combined messing, has anyone asked the erks how they feel about dining with a load of zobbits? There's a good reason for the separation of ranks in the military.
Maybe the right answer is to go back to the origins and have the Officers and SNCOs organize their own messes at their own expense, with public money only paying for the premises and a modest 'ration allowance' per head. As far as I can see there's nothing to prevent the mess members as a group, bidding for their own contract, then appointing their own managers to actually run the place. Any difference between the ration allowance and the actual service provided could be paid for as Mess Bills. The advantage would be that unlike independent outside contractors, the mess would be a non-profit making enterprise.
Just as it was in the first place.
On the subject of combined messing, has anyone asked the erks how they feel about dining with a load of zobbits? There's a good reason for the separation of ranks in the military.
Maybe the right answer is to go back to the origins and have the Officers and SNCOs organize their own messes at their own expense, with public money only paying for the premises and a modest 'ration allowance' per head. As far as I can see there's nothing to prevent the mess members as a group, bidding for their own contract, then appointing their own managers to actually run the place. Any difference between the ration allowance and the actual service provided could be paid for as Mess Bills. The advantage would be that unlike independent outside contractors, the mess would be a non-profit making enterprise.
Just as it was in the first place.
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Too right, Blacksheep, as another long-departed SNCO I heartily agree. Vive la difference!!
The more I read in these forums of life in the Mob nowadays, the happier I am that I left 21 years ago. I really don't think I could stomach the crap which appears to go on now. I would not wish to dine with Officers OR Other Ranks, my Mess was for me and my ilk, long may it remain so. If that appears to some as living in the past and wishing for "the old days", so be it. This erosion of recognition of the differences in rank/status cannot do any good, IMHO.
Ducks back behind parapet to await incoming!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
The more I read in these forums of life in the Mob nowadays, the happier I am that I left 21 years ago. I really don't think I could stomach the crap which appears to go on now. I would not wish to dine with Officers OR Other Ranks, my Mess was for me and my ilk, long may it remain so. If that appears to some as living in the past and wishing for "the old days", so be it. This erosion of recognition of the differences in rank/status cannot do any good, IMHO.
Ducks back behind parapet to await incoming!
Kind regards,
TheNightOwl.
Nixor ut Ledo
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During the dim and distant days of TACEVAL when centralised messing was instigated it was a commonly held view amongst officers and SNCOs that the food was top notch. We didn't mind going to the Airmen's Mess to eat but it did seem to me that the airmen minded.
I well remember one exercise at Wittering. I was sitting at a table on my own when I was approached by one lad with a heaped dinner plate (like, it had beans running off the side it was so heaped). He was all cheerful when he grunted "Anyone 'ere mate?", sat down and proceeded to scoop the contents of his plate into his frame in much the same fashion as a mechanical digger clawing clay from the side of a brick pit. He then seemed to note that I was not a fellow airman (we were all in NBC kit, sans respirators) when he spied my bit of green tape saying "Sqn Ldr xx" hidden in the folds of the NBC jacket.
At that point his head went down closer to the mountain of mash and a protective arm went around the top of the plate as if to guard it from my attentions.
It passed an amusing 5 minutes in what was a fairly turgid exercise.
Vive la difference!
I well remember one exercise at Wittering. I was sitting at a table on my own when I was approached by one lad with a heaped dinner plate (like, it had beans running off the side it was so heaped). He was all cheerful when he grunted "Anyone 'ere mate?", sat down and proceeded to scoop the contents of his plate into his frame in much the same fashion as a mechanical digger clawing clay from the side of a brick pit. He then seemed to note that I was not a fellow airman (we were all in NBC kit, sans respirators) when he spied my bit of green tape saying "Sqn Ldr xx" hidden in the folds of the NBC jacket.
At that point his head went down closer to the mountain of mash and a protective arm went around the top of the plate as if to guard it from my attentions.
It passed an amusing 5 minutes in what was a fairly turgid exercise.
Vive la difference!
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Glad to see some of the comments. Its funny how for the last 30 + years personnel have been asking for Pay As You Dine. Now it is coming in, they are all against it.
STC has always resisted MACs, unlike Porridge Command. However, 3 into 1 (Catering, Retail and Leisure) has been mandated by the DMB. Therefore, in theory, all Stns within the MoD will convert sooner or later to a MAC or PAYD.
PAYD is being trialled and the DMB are not going to make a decision on go ahead until next year. However, if personnel use it ...........................................!
STC has always resisted MACs, unlike Porridge Command. However, 3 into 1 (Catering, Retail and Leisure) has been mandated by the DMB. Therefore, in theory, all Stns within the MoD will convert sooner or later to a MAC or PAYD.
PAYD is being trialled and the DMB are not going to make a decision on go ahead until next year. However, if personnel use it ...........................................!
Last edited by SteveStephens; 11th Aug 2004 at 20:49.
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Do people realise that if the 3 in to 1 system comes online, that the contractor gets all leisure activities.
So the rugby club bar won't add to the rugby club funds, just line the pockets of the contractor, maximising their profit making position to the detriment of the clubs and activities on a station
At least with NAAFI the ORs got a rebate
So the rugby club bar won't add to the rugby club funds, just line the pockets of the contractor, maximising their profit making position to the detriment of the clubs and activities on a station
At least with NAAFI the ORs got a rebate
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Black Spot
As I said in my last post, 3into1 is mandated so it is not an option. However, the leisure activities referred to are the ones run by NAAFI at present, or should I say not run by NAAFI!
As for the Rugby Club, in STC each major non-public revenue stream will be examined to see whether it is in or out of the Contract. At RAF Leuchars the Bowl is in, the Rugby Club is out.
Then you get onto the Charities Act, you might be aware that the majority of Clubs do not conform to the Act!
As I said in my last post, 3into1 is mandated so it is not an option. However, the leisure activities referred to are the ones run by NAAFI at present, or should I say not run by NAAFI!
As for the Rugby Club, in STC each major non-public revenue stream will be examined to see whether it is in or out of the Contract. At RAF Leuchars the Bowl is in, the Rugby Club is out.
Then you get onto the Charities Act, you might be aware that the majority of Clubs do not conform to the Act!
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Some things you can't civilianise!
Recent local news article
As with all contracts, how can you ensure quality when the contractor is effectively written in as the boss.
Civ Company = profit
Profit = money not spent on service
=>decline in quality.
Up here at Leuchars, loyal, long-serving staff have gone unpaid for months, in some instances up to £800 in arrears.
In principle, PAYD is great - you pay for what you eat. However, when it goes as far as paying for individual slices of toast and saches of jam for afternoon tea, it's surely gone too far. Main meal portions have shrunk greatly in size and some staff are now more like salesmen than the usual friendly faces we were used to.
You can only put so much down to 'teething problems'
Oh, and did i say it was sh*te??
Uncle G
As with all contracts, how can you ensure quality when the contractor is effectively written in as the boss.
Civ Company = profit
Profit = money not spent on service
=>decline in quality.
Up here at Leuchars, loyal, long-serving staff have gone unpaid for months, in some instances up to £800 in arrears.
In principle, PAYD is great - you pay for what you eat. However, when it goes as far as paying for individual slices of toast and saches of jam for afternoon tea, it's surely gone too far. Main meal portions have shrunk greatly in size and some staff are now more like salesmen than the usual friendly faces we were used to.
You can only put so much down to 'teething problems'
Oh, and did i say it was sh*te??
Uncle G
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 28th Jul 2004 at 22:40.
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MAC vs Service Messes
A little off topic, but.....
In my last job I was required to spend a lot of time on the road, attending meetings at places such as MOD, HQSTC and visiting most of our bases including specialist or Joint Service units such as Chicksands and Cosford.
This kind of lifestyle rapidly highlighted those areas of success or failure in the area of Messing and accomodation. What was abundantly clear is that those Messes which retain their "Service" status were better by a country mile than the MAC/Civilian run counterparts. (i.e. the Mess Manager is a WO/FS and the Mess is run in the traditional manner).
My experience of the MACs is that they provide a degraded service in almost all areas; getting things fixed i.e. lack of hot water in an entire wing, was almost impossible; there seems to be little accountability for poor service and a predominance of Mess Managers who treat the place like a Trusthouse Forte with little regard for the lifestyle of the 'customers'. After three days of no hot water at Cosford, I threatened to move into a hotel and send the bill to the Mess Manager; miraculously the hot water came on that evening!
There is also a poor attitude prevalent on bases with Messes that are MAC-run in that anything that is not directly stipulated in the contract is too difficult/costly/time-consuming to change; things change over time and we have learnt the hard way that we never foresee every eventuality when writing contracts! For example. the RAF personnel at a Joint Service unit wanted to host a Battle Of Britain function last year; this was prevented because it wasn't part of the agreed 8 'official' functions allowed each year, and the (Civilian) Mess Manager refused to consider adding a ninth!
On the subject of PAYD - great concept but unfortunately I believe that this will be another erosion of our traditions and lifestyle. This is by no means a snobbish attitude; from one who has been both a JR and an officer, in both incarnations I would rather have dined with my peers!
SBG
In my last job I was required to spend a lot of time on the road, attending meetings at places such as MOD, HQSTC and visiting most of our bases including specialist or Joint Service units such as Chicksands and Cosford.
This kind of lifestyle rapidly highlighted those areas of success or failure in the area of Messing and accomodation. What was abundantly clear is that those Messes which retain their "Service" status were better by a country mile than the MAC/Civilian run counterparts. (i.e. the Mess Manager is a WO/FS and the Mess is run in the traditional manner).
My experience of the MACs is that they provide a degraded service in almost all areas; getting things fixed i.e. lack of hot water in an entire wing, was almost impossible; there seems to be little accountability for poor service and a predominance of Mess Managers who treat the place like a Trusthouse Forte with little regard for the lifestyle of the 'customers'. After three days of no hot water at Cosford, I threatened to move into a hotel and send the bill to the Mess Manager; miraculously the hot water came on that evening!
There is also a poor attitude prevalent on bases with Messes that are MAC-run in that anything that is not directly stipulated in the contract is too difficult/costly/time-consuming to change; things change over time and we have learnt the hard way that we never foresee every eventuality when writing contracts! For example. the RAF personnel at a Joint Service unit wanted to host a Battle Of Britain function last year; this was prevented because it wasn't part of the agreed 8 'official' functions allowed each year, and the (Civilian) Mess Manager refused to consider adding a ninth!
On the subject of PAYD - great concept but unfortunately I believe that this will be another erosion of our traditions and lifestyle. This is by no means a snobbish attitude; from one who has been both a JR and an officer, in both incarnations I would rather have dined with my peers!
SBG
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The first kiss of death was the Contract Caterers, Compass Caterers comes to mind from the wild Moors of North Yorkshire in the Eighties and again before demobb down South, driven by profit and declining standards.
They could'nt do Silver service in the mess for a dining in Night, so had to do a trial run with the full Menu at their cost and the peas were everywhere, they got it right in the end.
Now look where they are
Profits, nothing else.
They could'nt do Silver service in the mess for a dining in Night, so had to do a trial run with the full Menu at their cost and the peas were everywhere, they got it right in the end.
Now look where they are
Profits, nothing else.
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
Allan907, Luqa Mess, 1974, PAYD, Nimrod Soup, toast, butter and all priced separately. I think a slice of toast was 2p. But I digress.
StevenStevens is clearly very well connected. I recognise all the facts from the brief at STC last month. It certainly looks good and there is no doubt that there are warts. The contractor wanting to run the clubs too to ensure he gets his 10% profit.
Interestingly Coningsby want to make an in-house bid for PAYD. Having done all the study they then found they had overlooked the sqn faciltiies and southside feeder.
StevenStevens is clearly very well connected. I recognise all the facts from the brief at STC last month. It certainly looks good and there is no doubt that there are warts. The contractor wanting to run the clubs too to ensure he gets his 10% profit.
Interestingly Coningsby want to make an in-house bid for PAYD. Having done all the study they then found they had overlooked the sqn faciltiies and southside feeder.
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The other aspect of contract catering not mentioned so far, is the decline in numbers of uniformed staff. If you take chefs, for example - they are often required to deploy on ops or exercises to supplement host base staffing levels. So when the Harrier Force embark onto a carrier, RAF chefs/stewards, etc go with them. With the declining numbers of uniforms, it means that those that are left bear an increased burden of depolyments.
Result? A highly pi**ed off workforce that vote with their feet, knowing that in civi street, military chefs are snapped up with indecent haste. These guys walk into top notch jobs an the hotel & restaurant world [often at much higher salaries].
Incidentally, the same goes for civilian contractorisation across the Forces. How many civilian contractors joined in any of the recent bashes in the Middle East, Balkans, Sierra Leone, etc.
Many of us said civilian contractorisation was a disasterous mistake at the time of concept, and I hate to say it - but I'm going to anyway - WE TOLD YOU SO... [but no-one listened to anyone except the bean counters].
Result? A highly pi**ed off workforce that vote with their feet, knowing that in civi street, military chefs are snapped up with indecent haste. These guys walk into top notch jobs an the hotel & restaurant world [often at much higher salaries].
Incidentally, the same goes for civilian contractorisation across the Forces. How many civilian contractors joined in any of the recent bashes in the Middle East, Balkans, Sierra Leone, etc.
Many of us said civilian contractorisation was a disasterous mistake at the time of concept, and I hate to say it - but I'm going to anyway - WE TOLD YOU SO... [but no-one listened to anyone except the bean counters].
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I remember a PAYD trial at St Mawgan in 1973 (I think it was about then anyway). It made sense and was handled by the Service caterers and standards didn't slip at all. The potential problem with the current PAYD (which isn't really a trial more of a phased introduction) is that it will become contractor dominated rather than customer led (which was the idea).
For example the original plan at Leuchars was rejected by the contractors as being uneconomic for them. Inclusion of the Bowl was I suspect a sweetener to give then an extra profit stream. The prefered solution for the Strike trial was to use Servicemen and MOD civilians with contractor support only for the accounting part of the business but in the end the investment required resulted in a contractor led solution. The contractors hope to recoup their investment through their profits - in effect the Serviceman will be paying for improvements to his clubs and messes through his food bills!
PAYD is a fairer system than the food charge but will ultimately be more expensive for the individual. It will also lead to more contractorisation of the catering trade (already one of the hardest pressed in OOA turn-round times) and in time to the errosion of standards in oficers and sergeants messes (although hopefully improvements for the junior ranks). With care we should be able (have been able) to improve the latter without harming the former - the jury is still out but lessons from the Leuchars trial need to be learned carefully before it is applied as the standard across the rest of Strike. I would still like to see a Service run/led trial at the next MOB to go down this route.
In the meantime investing in a Kebab wagon or mobile Fish & Chips bar to park outside STC MOBs looks like a good investment!
For example the original plan at Leuchars was rejected by the contractors as being uneconomic for them. Inclusion of the Bowl was I suspect a sweetener to give then an extra profit stream. The prefered solution for the Strike trial was to use Servicemen and MOD civilians with contractor support only for the accounting part of the business but in the end the investment required resulted in a contractor led solution. The contractors hope to recoup their investment through their profits - in effect the Serviceman will be paying for improvements to his clubs and messes through his food bills!
PAYD is a fairer system than the food charge but will ultimately be more expensive for the individual. It will also lead to more contractorisation of the catering trade (already one of the hardest pressed in OOA turn-round times) and in time to the errosion of standards in oficers and sergeants messes (although hopefully improvements for the junior ranks). With care we should be able (have been able) to improve the latter without harming the former - the jury is still out but lessons from the Leuchars trial need to be learned carefully before it is applied as the standard across the rest of Strike. I would still like to see a Service run/led trial at the next MOB to go down this route.
In the meantime investing in a Kebab wagon or mobile Fish & Chips bar to park outside STC MOBs looks like a good investment!
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'and in time to the errosion of standards in oficers and sergeants messes (although hopefully improvements for the junior ranks)'
In days gone by, not that long ago mind, the best mess I have eaten in was as an airman at Odiham, Surf n' Turf night..... Inch think Fillet, Lobster, Whole tail scampi etc.
Don't think you would be able to get that on the core menu of PAYD!
TheBeeKeeper
(DH82b)
'and in time to the errosion of standards in oficers and sergeants messes (although hopefully improvements for the junior ranks)'
In days gone by, not that long ago mind, the best mess I have eaten in was as an airman at Odiham, Surf n' Turf night..... Inch think Fillet, Lobster, Whole tail scampi etc.
Don't think you would be able to get that on the core menu of PAYD!
TheBeeKeeper
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Investing in a Kebab van outside STC MOBs would sound like a good deal, until you realise that the PAYD company at Leuchars banned the long established van from working outside the station. They could only do this because he used a power supply from the base, good for him, good for the people of Leuchars, too much competition for ESS.
ESS nothing more than a money grabbing company with no understanding of military or mess life. Yes they have improved the all-ranks facility, but at the expense of the junior ranks bar, and mess life is at best critical, definetely on life support.
PAYD sounds like a good idea, but once again we a let down by the contract writers (Leuchars is STC PAYD trial but has signed a 10 year contract - extensive trial or clever dealing by ESS?) and people who don't appreciate that military life is different to civilian life.
ESS nothing more than a money grabbing company with no understanding of military or mess life. Yes they have improved the all-ranks facility, but at the expense of the junior ranks bar, and mess life is at best critical, definetely on life support.
PAYD sounds like a good idea, but once again we a let down by the contract writers (Leuchars is STC PAYD trial but has signed a 10 year contract - extensive trial or clever dealing by ESS?) and people who don't appreciate that military life is different to civilian life.
Gentleman Aviator
But (without being political), however good it is, it's also an unwelcome step in the direction of Central Planning, a la failed Warsaw Pact economies and is an enormous reduction in choice for Messes.
When I was last at EGOS, the links with local, exceptionally good wine merchant "Tanners of Shrewsbury" was forcibly removed by MegaContractor Inc, with MoD agreement, that they would supply all alcohol on base (might have only been Glider Command).
Staish at the time tried all he could to reverse the decision (allegedly), but the argument went thus:
MoD: Messes can only source other than from contractor, when contractor cannot supply.
Staish: Contractor cannot supply "Tanner's Claret" or "Tanner's Champagne", without which no D-I-N/Ball at Shawbs has been complete for 60 years.
MoD: That doesn't count - claret is claret and fizz is fizz. Back in yer box Staish, and don't bother us again.
And we used to get free wine tastings, which were educational (and fun) from Tanner's too. Ah well....
When I was last at EGOS, the links with local, exceptionally good wine merchant "Tanners of Shrewsbury" was forcibly removed by MegaContractor Inc, with MoD agreement, that they would supply all alcohol on base (might have only been Glider Command).
Staish at the time tried all he could to reverse the decision (allegedly), but the argument went thus:
MoD: Messes can only source other than from contractor, when contractor cannot supply.
Staish: Contractor cannot supply "Tanner's Claret" or "Tanner's Champagne", without which no D-I-N/Ball at Shawbs has been complete for 60 years.
MoD: That doesn't count - claret is claret and fizz is fizz. Back in yer box Staish, and don't bother us again.
And we used to get free wine tastings, which were educational (and fun) from Tanner's too. Ah well....
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Slotback,
Didn't know the Kebab van at Leuchars drew power from the public supply I always thought he was completely self contained. Has he really gone? Well at least that will reduce the SMO's sick parades!!
But where will 'arry the Staish get a quick soaker upper on his way home from Happy Hour?
As for the 10 year contract it may be called a trial but believe me this a phased introduction across all 3 Services. There's no turning back unless we can afford to pay the contractor for the improvements to the JRs' Mess.
Didn't know the Kebab van at Leuchars drew power from the public supply I always thought he was completely self contained. Has he really gone? Well at least that will reduce the SMO's sick parades!!
But where will 'arry the Staish get a quick soaker upper on his way home from Happy Hour?
As for the 10 year contract it may be called a trial but believe me this a phased introduction across all 3 Services. There's no turning back unless we can afford to pay the contractor for the improvements to the JRs' Mess.
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Glad to see all the different opinions, however most of them are incorrect! I am not a defender of PAYD, I only know a reasonable amount about the subject.
Uncle Ginsters
The MoD Civilians that transferred to ESS transferred with the same pay, bonuses and Pay Deal that they were getting. Yes there were problems that were soon sorted when it came to the attention of the "Grown Ups".
Pontius Navigator
Coningsby are trying to do PAYD on their own, the head chef was at RAF Leuchars until recently! We all agree that the RAF Chefs are the finest in the MoD, however they are not business men. If they ran PAYD, who would pay for the investment? Who would pay for the meals that were not consumed?
FJJP
Totally agree, if we do not look after our personnel, we wont be able to keep the 20,000 that we are reducing to!
Slotback
The demise of the Kebab Wagon was nothing to do with ESS. Must admit I have has a few of his finest over the years. Yes you are right Contractors do need to make profit. Were you aware that profit is filtered back to the Stn through Gainshare?
OK I have lit the touch paper ......................will retire to a safe distance.
Uncle Ginsters
The MoD Civilians that transferred to ESS transferred with the same pay, bonuses and Pay Deal that they were getting. Yes there were problems that were soon sorted when it came to the attention of the "Grown Ups".
Pontius Navigator
Coningsby are trying to do PAYD on their own, the head chef was at RAF Leuchars until recently! We all agree that the RAF Chefs are the finest in the MoD, however they are not business men. If they ran PAYD, who would pay for the investment? Who would pay for the meals that were not consumed?
FJJP
Totally agree, if we do not look after our personnel, we wont be able to keep the 20,000 that we are reducing to!
Slotback
The demise of the Kebab Wagon was nothing to do with ESS. Must admit I have has a few of his finest over the years. Yes you are right Contractors do need to make profit. Were you aware that profit is filtered back to the Stn through Gainshare?
OK I have lit the touch paper ......................will retire to a safe distance.
Last edited by SteveStephens; 11th Aug 2004 at 20:51.
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Pay still not resolved
Steve,
As informed as you may be, you can rest assured that the pay issues at Leuchars are not even close to being fully resolved. In the OM alone, there are more than a handful of staff well into 3-figures out of pocket, in some instances approaching 4.
You are right about the 'grown ups' knowing - allegedly, one of the Staish's (ESS run?!?) staff had to be taken into town by Mrs Staish to arrange their first bank loan because of it.
If the involved/responsible 'grown ups' are indeed aware of this, surely that simply makes the problem more grave.
Touch-paper ignites & burns, retreat,
Uncle G
As informed as you may be, you can rest assured that the pay issues at Leuchars are not even close to being fully resolved. In the OM alone, there are more than a handful of staff well into 3-figures out of pocket, in some instances approaching 4.
You are right about the 'grown ups' knowing - allegedly, one of the Staish's (ESS run?!?) staff had to be taken into town by Mrs Staish to arrange their first bank loan because of it.
If the involved/responsible 'grown ups' are indeed aware of this, surely that simply makes the problem more grave.
Touch-paper ignites & burns, retreat,
Uncle G
Last edited by Uncle Ginsters; 30th Jul 2004 at 09:42.
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In the meantime investing in a Kebab wagon or mobile Fish & Chips bar to park outside STC MOBs looks like a good investment!
I don't think many PAYD contractors will be providing this sort of service, but the powers that be are serving notice on Dutchy to move on.
Dutchy's web site can be found at: www.savedutchy.co.uk
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Head above parapet time...
From a purely eating POV, as someone who visits many establishments and a veggie to boot (I know, I can feel the incoming already) PAYD is a good idea as it allows me to walk out when I see deep fried frozen veg again at the counter. From the contractors' POV this is wasteful and eats into their profits. The obvious response to the contractors is improve the service. On one famous occasion I found it better to eat at the spotters' repository co-located with the latest Purple College on the grounds that as I was paying for it anyway I might as well eat something I could stomach. For all you secret veggies out there the place near the golf course has the best to date, although on reading SteveStephens reply to Pontius, I may have to visit Coningsby more...
Impiger, the St Mawgan trial sounds too sensible to be a winner for the MoD! I did some work with British Aerospace (back in the pre-flashy name days of course) and their subsidised canteen system was fantastic and very heavily used by all thanks to the quality.
From a purely eating POV, as someone who visits many establishments and a veggie to boot (I know, I can feel the incoming already) PAYD is a good idea as it allows me to walk out when I see deep fried frozen veg again at the counter. From the contractors' POV this is wasteful and eats into their profits. The obvious response to the contractors is improve the service. On one famous occasion I found it better to eat at the spotters' repository co-located with the latest Purple College on the grounds that as I was paying for it anyway I might as well eat something I could stomach. For all you secret veggies out there the place near the golf course has the best to date, although on reading SteveStephens reply to Pontius, I may have to visit Coningsby more...
Impiger, the St Mawgan trial sounds too sensible to be a winner for the MoD! I did some work with British Aerospace (back in the pre-flashy name days of course) and their subsidised canteen system was fantastic and very heavily used by all thanks to the quality.