Jag pilots to be airborne FC's?
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Jag pilots to be airborne FC's?
V. recent trumour.....
Has anyone else out there heard that the Jag force pilots are to fill the next batch of E3 fighter controller slots working the consoles down the back? Apparently this will fill the large shortfall of E3 FC's?
Has anyone else out there heard that the Jag force pilots are to fill the next batch of E3 fighter controller slots working the consoles down the back? Apparently this will fill the large shortfall of E3 FC's?
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TFD,
Nice attempt at a wind up fella..........but do be serious
Jag mates will certainly end up in the front seat of something deadly............ possibly AH when Gordon announces that "TWA" is to merge with all the other flying assets
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Nice attempt at a wind up fella..........but do be serious
Jag mates will certainly end up in the front seat of something deadly............ possibly AH when Gordon announces that "TWA" is to merge with all the other flying assets
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Last edited by Always_broken_in_wilts; 11th Jul 2004 at 22:58.
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Stanby ABIW!!! Some harsh banter to the FC world mate... Are you not jealous of spending lots of time underground? Better than Wilts I think!!
I would like to say I have also heard the same rumour about the Jag mates! I agree it would be a terrible waste, but where would we be without 'finger in the wind' decisions from the upper echelons? Watch this space, nothing is beyond the realms of possibility!
I would like to say I have also heard the same rumour about the Jag mates! I agree it would be a terrible waste, but where would we be without 'finger in the wind' decisions from the upper echelons? Watch this space, nothing is beyond the realms of possibility!
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ABIW,
What do you mean "waste millions"? Surely (don't call me Shirley!), most of the Jag force have repaid their ROS? Anyway, better to use their undoubted talents than lose them to the airlines. I expect that these guys are easier to train than ab initio FC recruits.
Glad I'm not the only one with nothing better to do at this time on a Sunday night!
What do you mean "waste millions"? Surely (don't call me Shirley!), most of the Jag force have repaid their ROS? Anyway, better to use their undoubted talents than lose them to the airlines. I expect that these guys are easier to train than ab initio FC recruits.
Glad I'm not the only one with nothing better to do at this time on a Sunday night!
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A N Other
Apologies and post edited
Me Lord...........With what it currently costs to train an FJ killer it shirly makes sense to keep the guys working at the coal face as opposed to "feckin them orf"......................however military and common sense....god elp us
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Apologies and post edited
Me Lord...........With what it currently costs to train an FJ killer it shirly makes sense to keep the guys working at the coal face as opposed to "feckin them orf"......................however military and common sense....god elp us
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
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Having spoken to a few 'people in the know' this is being considered by the men in big hats.
Besides which, in such turbulent times what else would you do with 3 Sqns of surplus pilots?????? Lets face it there's no single seat Typhoon waiting for them to jump in to.
FCs are one of the most undermanned branches of the airfarce who are fulfilling a very real role. Anyone who hasn't done the course should not under estimate it.
Besides which, in such turbulent times what else would you do with 3 Sqns of surplus pilots?????? Lets face it there's no single seat Typhoon waiting for them to jump in to.
FCs are one of the most undermanned branches of the airfarce who are fulfilling a very real role. Anyone who hasn't done the course should not under estimate it.
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Lets see what Gordon has o say later today before we start bleating about manpower levels
ALM's are hurting big style but if you lose the Puma fleet...........hey presto
Now as regards frisbee's etc...........again who knows
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
ALM's are hurting big style but if you lose the Puma fleet...........hey presto
Now as regards frisbee's etc...........again who knows
all spelling mistakes are "df" alcohol induced
Champagne anyone...?
I'd give that rumour a hmmmm out of ten.....
Do they really think that any Jag mates would seriously consider such a move? Barking if you ask me.....
Would be like asking a Herc pilot to go and run Inflight Catering. We might be vastly experienced and qualified on the subject but it wouldn't work: we're the ones that take the pies, not hand em out....
Do they really think that any Jag mates would seriously consider such a move? Barking if you ask me.....
Would be like asking a Herc pilot to go and run Inflight Catering. We might be vastly experienced and qualified on the subject but it wouldn't work: we're the ones that take the pies, not hand em out....
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DON'T PANIC
I just thought those comforting words might help.
sERIOUSLY THOUGH (oops) the trg system currently produces about 30% SS and 70% TS pilots. In about 5 years it will need to swap those numbers – a seriously difficult proposition. I am NOT in the know but can’t see how SS experience can be squandered – it’s the only factor that makes the impending change in sqn manning remotely viable and mitigates an inherently hazardous shift.
Jags were due to go in 08 anyway and they won’t turn the lights out at Colt overnight – I would guess that even 18 months would be challenging to wrap up a stn. So that’s end 06, early 07 – about the time the first Typhoon sqns are standing up. Clearly, not everyone is going to step cockpit to cockpit, but if a year/18 months/2 years is the price of a Typhoon slot I can see a few volunteers.
So – where to ‘hold’? Actually, the back end of an E3 isn’t so daft. Giving non-radar jocks a look at RAP would not be a wasted experience. Could also be a useful exercise in exploring mission commander type scenarios. Question: where would you rather be as a CSAR mission commander? I, for one, do not think it could be delegated to anyone other than a FJ operator, but where to run it from? Debate! (unclas!!)
I just thought those comforting words might help.
sERIOUSLY THOUGH (oops) the trg system currently produces about 30% SS and 70% TS pilots. In about 5 years it will need to swap those numbers – a seriously difficult proposition. I am NOT in the know but can’t see how SS experience can be squandered – it’s the only factor that makes the impending change in sqn manning remotely viable and mitigates an inherently hazardous shift.
Jags were due to go in 08 anyway and they won’t turn the lights out at Colt overnight – I would guess that even 18 months would be challenging to wrap up a stn. So that’s end 06, early 07 – about the time the first Typhoon sqns are standing up. Clearly, not everyone is going to step cockpit to cockpit, but if a year/18 months/2 years is the price of a Typhoon slot I can see a few volunteers.
So – where to ‘hold’? Actually, the back end of an E3 isn’t so daft. Giving non-radar jocks a look at RAP would not be a wasted experience. Could also be a useful exercise in exploring mission commander type scenarios. Question: where would you rather be as a CSAR mission commander? I, for one, do not think it could be delegated to anyone other than a FJ operator, but where to run it from? Debate! (unclas!!)
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Jag mates will certainly end up in the front seat of something deadly............ possibly AH when Gordon announces that "TWA" is to merge with all the other flying assets
Your having a laugh mate
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i m inclined to agree with those of us on here that think this thread is nothing but a wind up. However, I have also heard one or two whispers/truemours surrounding the topic. I for one think that its a ridiculous idea!!
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Not heard this rumour before, but with a little bit of tweeking I don't see why not.
Back in the good old days of a comfy det in Turkey, the Airborne Mission Commander on the E3 out there was a FJ driver. From what I remember, there were a handful of them doing Mission Commander jobs and they used to rotate through flying circles over Turkey and sitting in the CAOC.
Now whilst I can't exactly see the School of Fighter Control being inundated with applications from Jag drivers who've just had their toys taken away to become FCs, I can see a scenario (if one of the pen pushers in the doctrine cells, or wherever it is that comes up with the usual cunning plans, thinks about it) whereby we use the E3s properly for AWACS duties rather than paying lip service to it as an add on to AEW duties.
Do this and you could stick an extra console in the back (if required - although this will take up some of the space currently reserved for duty free and pies!) and have a Jag driver as an Airborne Mission Commander. Of course this would only be for people considered grown up enough to make the decision about what to bomb and what not to bomb. So probably means that OC Jag sqns will be ok, but not sure about the rest of them.
Comments/suggestions as a viable proposition? And please don't all stone me as a heretic for suggesting it! It may be going round in circles in a tin can, but it's gotta beat a desk at STC!!!! And it is only a post-bar thought.
Back in the good old days of a comfy det in Turkey, the Airborne Mission Commander on the E3 out there was a FJ driver. From what I remember, there were a handful of them doing Mission Commander jobs and they used to rotate through flying circles over Turkey and sitting in the CAOC.
Now whilst I can't exactly see the School of Fighter Control being inundated with applications from Jag drivers who've just had their toys taken away to become FCs, I can see a scenario (if one of the pen pushers in the doctrine cells, or wherever it is that comes up with the usual cunning plans, thinks about it) whereby we use the E3s properly for AWACS duties rather than paying lip service to it as an add on to AEW duties.
Do this and you could stick an extra console in the back (if required - although this will take up some of the space currently reserved for duty free and pies!) and have a Jag driver as an Airborne Mission Commander. Of course this would only be for people considered grown up enough to make the decision about what to bomb and what not to bomb. So probably means that OC Jag sqns will be ok, but not sure about the rest of them.
Comments/suggestions as a viable proposition? And please don't all stone me as a heretic for suggesting it! It may be going round in circles in a tin can, but it's gotta beat a desk at STC!!!! And it is only a post-bar thought.
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E-3D mission crew manning generally - and Weapons Controllers (WC) in particular - is something that will be undergoing considerable scrutiny over the next few years.
There are already 3 (one ex F3, one ex Tornado GR4 and one ex C-130 who has just completed an exchange with 849 Sqn) navs undergoing a trial course at Boulmer to give them a WC qualification. CAA requirements dictate that they complete trg at the SFC to be properly licensed for the full control services provided by the E-3. In theory, this option has been open for many years, and there are a handful of navs and AEOs that have gone that route and ended up on the E-3D. Unfortunately, until the current trial, such navs have been forced to do an extended (and frankly largely irrelevant) period of up to 2 years in a CRC prior to going to Waddington. The new system will better take account of previous flying and tactical experience and rightly fast track them onto E-3D duties.
The trial was initiated partly because the OSB(FC) branch could not supply the numbers associated with the expansion of the E-3D crews (not pie related!), and partly it has to be said for more machiavalian reasons by certain branches (IMHO).
However, obtaining a more cosmopolitan WC mix for the E-3D will be of considerable advantage for the fleet. The modern role of the jet sees it controlling a uniquely diverse range of assets and operations. FCs have an excellent record of success on the E-3D in terms of trg and upgrades. However, given recent ops, WSOs/WSOps with mud moving, Tac/SF AT and SH or AAC guys would be particularly relevant to E-3D WC duties. Although I think a Jag pilot is innappropriate at this stage (unless someone volunteered!), it's certainly been discussed. In short, be in no doubt that WSOs from all fleets will start to be employed as E-3D WCs in the coming years.
Captain Caveman,
You make some valid points regarding what is generally known as the Airborne Command Element (ACE) employed by USAF AWACS on ONW for many years. These jets also carried a Turkish observer on all missions and such requirements were one of the reasons why the E-3D got a tenth console as a UOR.
However, I would suggest that with 'reachback' to CAOCs via modern data links and SATCOM such a role is of questionable value now other than in a few niche operations. Also, during ops in BH, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq, the duties carried out by such an individual on USAF jets were ably carried out by the normal E-3D TD. As an experienced E-3D guy myself, I'd rather use any extra consoles for additional WCs to expand my control capability. TDs are used to being given considerable responsibility to exercise weapons employment options and ROE via their weapons team. You don't need to be a wg cdr to do that.
You are quite correct however to state that the E-3D's have been forced to adopt an AWACS/ABCCC type role with an AEW platform. Only in the last few years have we got a 'AWACS' style comms fit, and we are still 4 consoles short of what the USAF jets have. ISTAR is high on the increasingly small funding list these days, but we are still some way off a true Air Battle Management (ABM) capability.
Capt Kirk,
Valid comments ref CSAR management. However, whilst the On Scene Cdr (OSC) duty is undoubtedly best left in a FJ or AH cockpit, the 'big picture' CSAR Airborne Mission Cdr (AMC) tasks are normally effectively allocated to assets such as the USAF EC-130E ABCCC (when it was still in service), AWACS or JSTARS. We've done several of those over the years, and indeed, an E-3D FC TD recieved a Jt Cdrs Commendation for his coord of the Kosovo F-117 CSAR.
Regards,
M2
There are already 3 (one ex F3, one ex Tornado GR4 and one ex C-130 who has just completed an exchange with 849 Sqn) navs undergoing a trial course at Boulmer to give them a WC qualification. CAA requirements dictate that they complete trg at the SFC to be properly licensed for the full control services provided by the E-3. In theory, this option has been open for many years, and there are a handful of navs and AEOs that have gone that route and ended up on the E-3D. Unfortunately, until the current trial, such navs have been forced to do an extended (and frankly largely irrelevant) period of up to 2 years in a CRC prior to going to Waddington. The new system will better take account of previous flying and tactical experience and rightly fast track them onto E-3D duties.
The trial was initiated partly because the OSB(FC) branch could not supply the numbers associated with the expansion of the E-3D crews (not pie related!), and partly it has to be said for more machiavalian reasons by certain branches (IMHO).
However, obtaining a more cosmopolitan WC mix for the E-3D will be of considerable advantage for the fleet. The modern role of the jet sees it controlling a uniquely diverse range of assets and operations. FCs have an excellent record of success on the E-3D in terms of trg and upgrades. However, given recent ops, WSOs/WSOps with mud moving, Tac/SF AT and SH or AAC guys would be particularly relevant to E-3D WC duties. Although I think a Jag pilot is innappropriate at this stage (unless someone volunteered!), it's certainly been discussed. In short, be in no doubt that WSOs from all fleets will start to be employed as E-3D WCs in the coming years.
Captain Caveman,
You make some valid points regarding what is generally known as the Airborne Command Element (ACE) employed by USAF AWACS on ONW for many years. These jets also carried a Turkish observer on all missions and such requirements were one of the reasons why the E-3D got a tenth console as a UOR.
However, I would suggest that with 'reachback' to CAOCs via modern data links and SATCOM such a role is of questionable value now other than in a few niche operations. Also, during ops in BH, Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq, the duties carried out by such an individual on USAF jets were ably carried out by the normal E-3D TD. As an experienced E-3D guy myself, I'd rather use any extra consoles for additional WCs to expand my control capability. TDs are used to being given considerable responsibility to exercise weapons employment options and ROE via their weapons team. You don't need to be a wg cdr to do that.
You are quite correct however to state that the E-3D's have been forced to adopt an AWACS/ABCCC type role with an AEW platform. Only in the last few years have we got a 'AWACS' style comms fit, and we are still 4 consoles short of what the USAF jets have. ISTAR is high on the increasingly small funding list these days, but we are still some way off a true Air Battle Management (ABM) capability.
Capt Kirk,
Valid comments ref CSAR management. However, whilst the On Scene Cdr (OSC) duty is undoubtedly best left in a FJ or AH cockpit, the 'big picture' CSAR Airborne Mission Cdr (AMC) tasks are normally effectively allocated to assets such as the USAF EC-130E ABCCC (when it was still in service), AWACS or JSTARS. We've done several of those over the years, and indeed, an E-3D FC TD recieved a Jt Cdrs Commendation for his coord of the Kosovo F-117 CSAR.
Regards,
M2
Last edited by Magic Mushroom; 14th Jul 2004 at 21:41.
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Do I here you right. WSO's as WC's, and I thought the branch had standards: that's the FC branch you understand.
I'd love to be updated on their progress as I can't see how a bunch of aircrew mavericks (geese, to use Topgun parlance), could ever adapt to ditching their Primadonna hats and getting down to understanding the big picture.
I'd love to be updated on their progress as I can't see how a bunch of aircrew mavericks (geese, to use Topgun parlance), could ever adapt to ditching their Primadonna hats and getting down to understanding the big picture.