Jag pilots to be airborne FC's?
Except that 'domus' takes?
The locative!
Right. Romanes ite domum. Now write it out 100 times before sun up or I'll.....
A question for the mushroom folk - is the traditional 'AEW' role now past its sell-by? How much closer to the roles of JSTARS are you, in fact, mainly working?
Will there be much blurring between AWACS and ASTOR type roles in the future?
Perhaps the Swedes had a good idea - keep the controllers on the ground and downlink data from the air platforms. No 'dead time' lost in transit, just replace the platforms on station and the controllers in their concrete caverns when needed. Of course it wouldn't be much fun to work in such an environment, but wouldn't high-capacity bandwidth downlinked-data from a deployable range of assets be more effective than having to fly them around in something as valuable as an E3D?
The locative!
Right. Romanes ite domum. Now write it out 100 times before sun up or I'll.....
A question for the mushroom folk - is the traditional 'AEW' role now past its sell-by? How much closer to the roles of JSTARS are you, in fact, mainly working?
Will there be much blurring between AWACS and ASTOR type roles in the future?
Perhaps the Swedes had a good idea - keep the controllers on the ground and downlink data from the air platforms. No 'dead time' lost in transit, just replace the platforms on station and the controllers in their concrete caverns when needed. Of course it wouldn't be much fun to work in such an environment, but wouldn't high-capacity bandwidth downlinked-data from a deployable range of assets be more effective than having to fly them around in something as valuable as an E3D?
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Orac,
Your comments are accurate. The US military very much view the CAOC as an emerging weapon system in it's own right via data 'reachback'. The advantages of this is that you decrease massively the footprint in theatre. The negative side is that - as you suggest - reachback requires HUGE amounts of bandwidth which is immensely expensive. I believe that the US have spent tens of billions of dollars buying up bandwidth for their requirements over the next 20 years.
From a practical point of view, CAOCs already hold the theoretical hammer of many decisions in ops such as Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq. The guys sit watching numerous data link pictures in real time and can speak to AWACS, JSTARS and a variety of other players via SATCOM. However, in reality reachback is not yet mature enough. A classic example is control of AAR assets. CAOCs like to keep the hammer on the fuel give away plan. However, things change on so many other radios which the CAOC can't listen to that such decisions are in practice taken by the AWACS/E-2C/TACC guys with the CAOC backbriefed.
From the limited experience I have of the US JICO position, I believe that most are what we would call FCs from the surveillance specialisation. In fact, during TELIC, several RAF FCs were integrated into the USAF JICO roster.
Beags,
Yes, the traditional AEW concept is (IMHO) history and the E-3Ds have never really been used in that way. However, I would say that AWACS, SIGINT, JSTARS/ASTOR complement each other. Thankfully, in all recent ops, we've got used to working with each highly effectively. The only issue with ASTOR is the lack of capacity for decision making in the air due to the small crew and comms fit in comparison with JSTARS.
The Swedish Eriyeye system is very much a cold war concept of a flying extension to ground based radar cover. Interestingly, the Saab 340s they loaned to the Greeks had operator consoles fitted. As these returned to Sweden, the consoles were not removed and the other Swedish aircraft will be similarly modified.
Meanwhile, data linking to the ground is all well and good until the link breaks or someone goes out of UHF range. Additionally, such links only transfer track as opposed to the sensor data which is available in the air. The bandwidth and technology to achieve sensor data transfer is causing the USN massive problems with their Cooperative Engagement Capability and is not yet mature.
As an aside, the Swedes are talking about modding the Erieye so that it has a ground surveillance capability. Given that such changes are a lot easier on an E-scan radar as opposed to the E-3s mechanical APY-2, I strongly suspect that the RAAF will be looking to do likewise with Wedgetail. Such a secondary JSTARS/lite capability would add more strength to Antipodean Alligators argument to get Pig (and AP-3C) navs into Wedgetail.
Regards,
M2
Your comments are accurate. The US military very much view the CAOC as an emerging weapon system in it's own right via data 'reachback'. The advantages of this is that you decrease massively the footprint in theatre. The negative side is that - as you suggest - reachback requires HUGE amounts of bandwidth which is immensely expensive. I believe that the US have spent tens of billions of dollars buying up bandwidth for their requirements over the next 20 years.
From a practical point of view, CAOCs already hold the theoretical hammer of many decisions in ops such as Kosovo, Afghanistan and Iraq. The guys sit watching numerous data link pictures in real time and can speak to AWACS, JSTARS and a variety of other players via SATCOM. However, in reality reachback is not yet mature enough. A classic example is control of AAR assets. CAOCs like to keep the hammer on the fuel give away plan. However, things change on so many other radios which the CAOC can't listen to that such decisions are in practice taken by the AWACS/E-2C/TACC guys with the CAOC backbriefed.
From the limited experience I have of the US JICO position, I believe that most are what we would call FCs from the surveillance specialisation. In fact, during TELIC, several RAF FCs were integrated into the USAF JICO roster.
Beags,
Yes, the traditional AEW concept is (IMHO) history and the E-3Ds have never really been used in that way. However, I would say that AWACS, SIGINT, JSTARS/ASTOR complement each other. Thankfully, in all recent ops, we've got used to working with each highly effectively. The only issue with ASTOR is the lack of capacity for decision making in the air due to the small crew and comms fit in comparison with JSTARS.
The Swedish Eriyeye system is very much a cold war concept of a flying extension to ground based radar cover. Interestingly, the Saab 340s they loaned to the Greeks had operator consoles fitted. As these returned to Sweden, the consoles were not removed and the other Swedish aircraft will be similarly modified.
Meanwhile, data linking to the ground is all well and good until the link breaks or someone goes out of UHF range. Additionally, such links only transfer track as opposed to the sensor data which is available in the air. The bandwidth and technology to achieve sensor data transfer is causing the USN massive problems with their Cooperative Engagement Capability and is not yet mature.
As an aside, the Swedes are talking about modding the Erieye so that it has a ground surveillance capability. Given that such changes are a lot easier on an E-scan radar as opposed to the E-3s mechanical APY-2, I strongly suspect that the RAAF will be looking to do likewise with Wedgetail. Such a secondary JSTARS/lite capability would add more strength to Antipodean Alligators argument to get Pig (and AP-3C) navs into Wedgetail.
Regards,
M2
"CAOCs like to keep the hammer on the fuel give away plan."
I've heard that daft sounds-tough expression used in other theatres, but WTF is it supposed to mean? Sounds like some typical Spamspeak which doesn't mean anything to non-jargon speakers.
Does it mean 'manage'
Thanks for the rest of a most interesting post though, MM!
I've heard that daft sounds-tough expression used in other theatres, but WTF is it supposed to mean? Sounds like some typical Spamspeak which doesn't mean anything to non-jargon speakers.
Does it mean 'manage'
Thanks for the rest of a most interesting post though, MM!
Third person singular, present tense, active mood of amo should be amat, boy! Not amant - that's the third person plural!
amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant
Now write it out 100 times whilst I give the deputy matron a good rogering!
amo, amas, amat, amamus, amatis, amant
Now write it out 100 times whilst I give the deputy matron a good rogering!
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BEagle
In reply to your queston, which has been delayed cause Aunty Betty moved me again, is that the personnel at CAOC wanted to micro manage the the whole event.
In other words instead of issuing guidance about how they wanted the Cdrs Intent to be carried out. They insisted on telling the crews exactly who was to refuel from whom. The simple fact is that they were best kept out of the loop and only "back briefed" on what had been done.
A certain exampleof their "ideas" being illustrated by the following story.
With a very quiet AOR about 7 months after the original punch up in Afganistan a ?H-53 put down on a island in a river not very far at all from Tora Bora. Naturely this attracted the locals (who we'd just been bombing the whatsits out of). Now they were armed with the local mix of weapons, including RPG's and heavy MG's on trucks. With a FAC and trops in the back they were better equiped than most downed crews, but when they asked for over head cover, COAC said no. They didn't explain why just said no, now on this particular trip the USN were supplying most of the FJ and with the Mother on the SATCOM and aware of the prob, they were more than happy to allow FJ with weapons on board to extend over the AOR. They had no problem about letting crews flex their deck recovery time. This was one day that the AOR was flush with gas and we had no problems about keeping a Tanker and hence FJ's over the downed helo.
What was eventually allowed was a TV/IR equiped but not gun equiped 4 prop to fly over the helo, once the UAV had gone home. Now at this time neither was armed, so if the brown stuff did hit the fan the closest armed assests, which were holding on the tanker was 200 miles away.
Also they would direct certain ac to refuel from certain tankers. This despite the fact that we'd told them that either the system was US, that these aircraft required. Or that the tanker in question was at the other end of the AOR covering a tasking they'd allocated earlier.
I've had similar Micro Managements from other CAOC's, in Kosovo where the CB's were a major problem and they had IMC'd the whole of the Albania/Macedonia airspace, of being told to put the AAR tracks down below the weather. Which was 13k With lightning, the hills go up to 9k plus, if my memory serves me right. Also the Albainians still had civies in the area, with no ATC radar to help them out, throw in all the rotary/prop stuff going under the weather from Italy to Macedonia. Thats why i said no, and moved the AAR out of the tracks so they could find some layers to work in.
Or worse when involved in GW2, when the AAR boys dried up due to the sand storms. CAOC neglected to tell us that there were problems untill we notice that AAR replacements were not on the tube. Then said "oh we've scrambled some from Deigo Garcia 30 mins ago they should be with you soon". Needless to say we didn't feel supported!
MM
As for the WSO's IMHO I believe that they will miss out on experience at the CRC's, not just in understanding "services" but in gaining valuable experience and exposure to basic E3 WC work such as AAR, Check in and the job the CRC does to let the WC's do their job. Yes I know that they will have previous experience. But with deficits in these areas then STF will have their work cut out for them.
As for your comments about the WSO WC's that believe that their ground time was largely a waste. I believe that it was because they were being trained for the Cold War. Not the job that the E3D now does, which is after all amost 95% different to a CRC.
I further believe that there are 2 reasons that FC's arrive at Waddo with such poor preparation for their job. One is the lack of experience and that is through out the CRC of E3 methods and exposure to the way that people are expected to work when on the E3D. This again is due to lack of experience, only this time with in the supervising chain of command within the CRC.
The second is the fact that average WC arrives earlier in their career, couple this with a shorter time in the basic training period and the end result is you have to spend more time to reach the high standard that you require.
That said I firmly believe that the WSO's will supplant the FC's and that encludes the Surveilance as well as weapons, due to the fact that the money will not be there to pay two lots of flying pay.
In reply to your queston, which has been delayed cause Aunty Betty moved me again, is that the personnel at CAOC wanted to micro manage the the whole event.
In other words instead of issuing guidance about how they wanted the Cdrs Intent to be carried out. They insisted on telling the crews exactly who was to refuel from whom. The simple fact is that they were best kept out of the loop and only "back briefed" on what had been done.
A certain exampleof their "ideas" being illustrated by the following story.
With a very quiet AOR about 7 months after the original punch up in Afganistan a ?H-53 put down on a island in a river not very far at all from Tora Bora. Naturely this attracted the locals (who we'd just been bombing the whatsits out of). Now they were armed with the local mix of weapons, including RPG's and heavy MG's on trucks. With a FAC and trops in the back they were better equiped than most downed crews, but when they asked for over head cover, COAC said no. They didn't explain why just said no, now on this particular trip the USN were supplying most of the FJ and with the Mother on the SATCOM and aware of the prob, they were more than happy to allow FJ with weapons on board to extend over the AOR. They had no problem about letting crews flex their deck recovery time. This was one day that the AOR was flush with gas and we had no problems about keeping a Tanker and hence FJ's over the downed helo.
What was eventually allowed was a TV/IR equiped but not gun equiped 4 prop to fly over the helo, once the UAV had gone home. Now at this time neither was armed, so if the brown stuff did hit the fan the closest armed assests, which were holding on the tanker was 200 miles away.
Also they would direct certain ac to refuel from certain tankers. This despite the fact that we'd told them that either the system was US, that these aircraft required. Or that the tanker in question was at the other end of the AOR covering a tasking they'd allocated earlier.
I've had similar Micro Managements from other CAOC's, in Kosovo where the CB's were a major problem and they had IMC'd the whole of the Albania/Macedonia airspace, of being told to put the AAR tracks down below the weather. Which was 13k With lightning, the hills go up to 9k plus, if my memory serves me right. Also the Albainians still had civies in the area, with no ATC radar to help them out, throw in all the rotary/prop stuff going under the weather from Italy to Macedonia. Thats why i said no, and moved the AAR out of the tracks so they could find some layers to work in.
Or worse when involved in GW2, when the AAR boys dried up due to the sand storms. CAOC neglected to tell us that there were problems untill we notice that AAR replacements were not on the tube. Then said "oh we've scrambled some from Deigo Garcia 30 mins ago they should be with you soon". Needless to say we didn't feel supported!
MM
As for the WSO's IMHO I believe that they will miss out on experience at the CRC's, not just in understanding "services" but in gaining valuable experience and exposure to basic E3 WC work such as AAR, Check in and the job the CRC does to let the WC's do their job. Yes I know that they will have previous experience. But with deficits in these areas then STF will have their work cut out for them.
As for your comments about the WSO WC's that believe that their ground time was largely a waste. I believe that it was because they were being trained for the Cold War. Not the job that the E3D now does, which is after all amost 95% different to a CRC.
I further believe that there are 2 reasons that FC's arrive at Waddo with such poor preparation for their job. One is the lack of experience and that is through out the CRC of E3 methods and exposure to the way that people are expected to work when on the E3D. This again is due to lack of experience, only this time with in the supervising chain of command within the CRC.
The second is the fact that average WC arrives earlier in their career, couple this with a shorter time in the basic training period and the end result is you have to spend more time to reach the high standard that you require.
That said I firmly believe that the WSO's will supplant the FC's and that encludes the Surveilance as well as weapons, due to the fact that the money will not be there to pay two lots of flying pay.
