EFTS groundschool
Thread Starter
I certainly don't suggest that a Dalton should be used in flight !
Nevertheless, I feel that it's use for pre-flight planning is an essential part of a pilot's basic training. Certainly in a/c such as are used for Elementary Flying.
MDR is certainly of use once the basics have been learned - and only then.
As the Army, RN and RAF ME worlds still teach the correct use of a computer for pre-flight planning, I'll delay communicating my recommendations.
Nevertheless, I feel that it's use for pre-flight planning is an essential part of a pilot's basic training. Certainly in a/c such as are used for Elementary Flying.
MDR is certainly of use once the basics have been learned - and only then.
As the Army, RN and RAF ME worlds still teach the correct use of a computer for pre-flight planning, I'll delay communicating my recommendations.
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I do agree, the DC is not much good for a handling pilot, however it does have some excellent uses. The main reason that a lot of people slag it off is lack of understanding what it does. In the PLANNING stage of any flight, I use MDR for track, however at times I find the computer works fuel and timing faster than my brain. In other words, I don't use the front of the wheel, just the slide rule on the back. With a little practice, it is quicker than a calculator. In flight, as previously mentioned, Handling Pilot... NO! But as Non Handling Pilot out of low level environment... Yes Please!! Particularly in airways. Don't slag off an excellent piece of kit.
PS... Didn't the nav school issue little electronic computers that work out track and timing??
PS... Didn't the nav school issue little electronic computers that work out track and timing??
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BEagle
Have you been taking the angry pills again. I suggest you moderate your posts and consider that the human brain is a far better, quicker and better packaged tool than the mechanical metal and plastic that you advocate. Hats off to anyone who can and has been taught to do the sums in his/her head.
Calculators should only be used for the expense claim form.
Have you been taking the angry pills again. I suggest you moderate your posts and consider that the human brain is a far better, quicker and better packaged tool than the mechanical metal and plastic that you advocate. Hats off to anyone who can and has been taught to do the sums in his/her head.
Calculators should only be used for the expense claim form.
Thread Starter
It's a question of using the most appropriate tool for the task in hand...
I always thought that the Dalton work we did during Gnat groundschool was a bit daft - but it was certainly corrrect for pre-flight planning for Chipmunk navigation at 2500ft.
On the JP 125 hr course (before the days of Gp1 Ph 1 or whatever it was called), medium level and radio aids navigation exercises were pre-planned using a Dalton computer; however, MDR was also taught for other applications. The low level technique, taught later, was, of course, totally different.
Personally I think that the Dalton should be used at the elementary stage for pre-flight planning; MDR should be left until later stages of training and therafter the use of the Dalton should be 'as required' only.
I always thought that the Dalton work we did during Gnat groundschool was a bit daft - but it was certainly corrrect for pre-flight planning for Chipmunk navigation at 2500ft.
On the JP 125 hr course (before the days of Gp1 Ph 1 or whatever it was called), medium level and radio aids navigation exercises were pre-planned using a Dalton computer; however, MDR was also taught for other applications. The low level technique, taught later, was, of course, totally different.
Personally I think that the Dalton should be used at the elementary stage for pre-flight planning; MDR should be left until later stages of training and therafter the use of the Dalton should be 'as required' only.
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To check out the equipment used in EFT groundschool, try looking in the UAS syllabus of EFT, where it lists the Mk 4a Computer (low speed card) under resources, or RN syllabus, where the ground school time allocated to the Dalton Computer is 2 hours.
However, I still don't see this knowledge being of lasting use to the students, given the careers upon which they are embarking. The CAA dispensation was given as much in the interest of the GA community (spreading understanding between private aviators and the military) as for the benefit of the RAF and RN pilots. Withdrawal would tend towards cutting off the nose to spite the face.
By the way, if we really must debate literacy in this context, it should be noted that it's means it is, not belonging to it.
However, I still don't see this knowledge being of lasting use to the students, given the careers upon which they are embarking. The CAA dispensation was given as much in the interest of the GA community (spreading understanding between private aviators and the military) as for the benefit of the RAF and RN pilots. Withdrawal would tend towards cutting off the nose to spite the face.
By the way, if we really must debate literacy in this context, it should be noted that it's means it is, not belonging to it.
Thread Starter
Well spotted - apostrophic abuse resulting from careless editing on my behalf. I originally intended to write "It's used....", then changed the wording!
Apologies!
Apologies!
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Having been through the current EFT groundschool not too long ago, I can say that the Dalton Computer is indeed in the course and we are taught, and checked on, its usage.
I have civvie friends who have their PPLs and, obviously, have military friends who have completed EFT, all I can say is that, as they all have approx 60 hrs of experience, I know who I would rather be sharing the sky with.
I have civvie friends who have their PPLs and, obviously, have military friends who have completed EFT, all I can say is that, as they all have approx 60 hrs of experience, I know who I would rather be sharing the sky with.
Last edited by Burnswannabe; 25th Jun 2004 at 12:27.
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BEagle,
Just to let you know that about 4 years ago, JEFTS groundschool did alittle bit on the DC, however, for the previous 6 months all us poor Navy Students had been getting a complete beasting on the Computer. Stuff like: ' your boat was there, then, you are here, now with x fuel in US gallons, given this met, when could you land on the boat with x left in the tanks??' It was a bugger, but quite good to get your head round the threoy behind the math. As for Fast jet mates not using the DC for wind.... does a 20kt wind affect you guys at 350/450kts??? It does affect at 90kts, but the MDR 'suck it and see' with the conditions DOES work well!!
Regards
Tgreen
Just to let you know that about 4 years ago, JEFTS groundschool did alittle bit on the DC, however, for the previous 6 months all us poor Navy Students had been getting a complete beasting on the Computer. Stuff like: ' your boat was there, then, you are here, now with x fuel in US gallons, given this met, when could you land on the boat with x left in the tanks??' It was a bugger, but quite good to get your head round the threoy behind the math. As for Fast jet mates not using the DC for wind.... does a 20kt wind affect you guys at 350/450kts??? It does affect at 90kts, but the MDR 'suck it and see' with the conditions DOES work well!!
Regards
Tgreen
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IntGreen
Absolutely right, 20kts of wind is fairly negligible at 420kts+ at LL, and the good old "Aim a bit into wind if you're off track" method works a treat. At BFJT and EFT we calculated hdgs to give us accurate tracks using MDR and planned wind while on the nav route, and were not recommended to work it out before flying the route as wind changes, also to test capacity in flight I guess!
Beagle
As other posters have said, we do still teach the DC, but with much less emphasis as it is fairly unnecessary these days as a lot of nav training is done by rapid planning under tight time constraints. MDR has never let me or anyone I know down (other than when under big pressure in the air from the git in the boot!) so I guess this is the way our lords and masters have decided students should be taught.
I don't mean to appear confrontational, but you should maybe check out your last few posts and see why you may have offended a few fellow aviators. Illiterate and ignorant? I'm all for banter but I think this may be going a bit far!
Take care and fly safe everyone, Casper.
Absolutely right, 20kts of wind is fairly negligible at 420kts+ at LL, and the good old "Aim a bit into wind if you're off track" method works a treat. At BFJT and EFT we calculated hdgs to give us accurate tracks using MDR and planned wind while on the nav route, and were not recommended to work it out before flying the route as wind changes, also to test capacity in flight I guess!
Beagle
As other posters have said, we do still teach the DC, but with much less emphasis as it is fairly unnecessary these days as a lot of nav training is done by rapid planning under tight time constraints. MDR has never let me or anyone I know down (other than when under big pressure in the air from the git in the boot!) so I guess this is the way our lords and masters have decided students should be taught.
I don't mean to appear confrontational, but you should maybe check out your last few posts and see why you may have offended a few fellow aviators. Illiterate and ignorant? I'm all for banter but I think this may be going a bit far!
Take care and fly safe everyone, Casper.
Thread Starter
To rectify offence perceived by some, I wish to make it clear that it was the UAS/EFTS system to which my query concerning navigation computer was aimed, not DEFTS.
It has been revealing to note that there is a variation across - and indeed within - the various services concerning contemporary basic nav training and doubtless all have their reasons for the level of 'whizz-wheel' pre-flight planning training which they consider appropriate.
I will conclude by stating that it is my opinion that the old adge:
Plan accurately
Fly accurately
Think ahead
still holds true; the smaller the error from accurate pre-flight planning, the less correction needed in flight from observed progress. I also consider that the basics should be taught first, MDR later.
Have a good weekend, everybody!
It has been revealing to note that there is a variation across - and indeed within - the various services concerning contemporary basic nav training and doubtless all have their reasons for the level of 'whizz-wheel' pre-flight planning training which they consider appropriate.
I will conclude by stating that it is my opinion that the old adge:
Plan accurately
Fly accurately
Think ahead
still holds true; the smaller the error from accurate pre-flight planning, the less correction needed in flight from observed progress. I also consider that the basics should be taught first, MDR later.
Have a good weekend, everybody!
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Beagle
I'm not that worried that guys who are taught how to use the Dalton by the RAF don't know how to operate it....guess that comes from lack of practice with the instrument. I'm afraid I have to fundamentally disagree with your training philoshopy.
Avionic systems and the planning tools in all front line aircraft have now progressed that skill with the Dalton is irrelevent. I would rather students arriving on my OCU were taught effective sytems management (far more appropriate) and a proper cockpit workcycle than a working knowledge of the computer. If the radar isn't picking up targets we still use MDR to run the intercept, furthermore we employ MDR techniques for glidepath ROT and drift calculation on emergency recoveries, so I think the emphasis on MDR at all stages of flying training is entirely justified. Furthermore I was rescued from a FNT failure at EFT by an enlightened GR1 QFI who taught MDR impeccably, Dalton is far more inaccurate.
If you want to talk about the generation gap between the avionic systems training airframesto the front line....new thread
I'm not that worried that guys who are taught how to use the Dalton by the RAF don't know how to operate it....guess that comes from lack of practice with the instrument. I'm afraid I have to fundamentally disagree with your training philoshopy.
Avionic systems and the planning tools in all front line aircraft have now progressed that skill with the Dalton is irrelevent. I would rather students arriving on my OCU were taught effective sytems management (far more appropriate) and a proper cockpit workcycle than a working knowledge of the computer. If the radar isn't picking up targets we still use MDR to run the intercept, furthermore we employ MDR techniques for glidepath ROT and drift calculation on emergency recoveries, so I think the emphasis on MDR at all stages of flying training is entirely justified. Furthermore I was rescued from a FNT failure at EFT by an enlightened GR1 QFI who taught MDR impeccably, Dalton is far more inaccurate.
If you want to talk about the generation gap between the avionic systems training airframesto the front line....new thread
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"Skill with the Dalton is irrelevant". Is it?
Hmm. As a SARboy I still find the 'Dalton Confuser' invaluable, both on the ground and in the air; every long-range job I go on you'll find me busy with my whizz-wheel. No amount of button pressing on the Sea King's CDNU gives you the same warm feeling as going back to basics to confirm that you have the fuel to get there, do the job and get back to a dry bit.
Hmm. As a SARboy I still find the 'Dalton Confuser' invaluable, both on the ground and in the air; every long-range job I go on you'll find me busy with my whizz-wheel. No amount of button pressing on the Sea King's CDNU gives you the same warm feeling as going back to basics to confirm that you have the fuel to get there, do the job and get back to a dry bit.
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Although I have not flown anything fast or pointy enough to be able to comment on the relevance (or otherwise) of the DC to faster aircraft, as I one of the UAS scrotes BEagle has referred to, I figured I'd chip in with my 2p's worth.....
As I see it the function of whatever method one uses is to ensure that turning points and fixes are reached accurately, both in terms of correction left/right of track, and in terms of an accurate ETA.
Before joining the UAS I used the DC when doing naviagation exercises at a civilian flying club. I remember finding this a relatively fiddly tool, and having some difficulties at times reaching my TP's. Later on, flying with the UAS, I was taught MDR. Armed with this I was able to fly a light aircraft around a route at 120kts. Today I flew a sortie in one of BEagle's beloved aircraft at 90kts, again using purely MDR. Once again I was able to accurately follow the route and forecast my ETA's.
My rather long-winded point therefore is that (in my admittedly very humble opinion) MDR can achieve the same results as a DC, so what is the problem? In addition, as I see it, MDR is also much more relevant in the case of a diversion - us studes therefore only having to learn one technique for both routine and diversion navigation.
Anyway, I'm off to get that mirror before I can go to the loo.....
BEagle: Naturally I'll use the DC for my skills test - keep the examiner happy and all!
As I see it the function of whatever method one uses is to ensure that turning points and fixes are reached accurately, both in terms of correction left/right of track, and in terms of an accurate ETA.
Before joining the UAS I used the DC when doing naviagation exercises at a civilian flying club. I remember finding this a relatively fiddly tool, and having some difficulties at times reaching my TP's. Later on, flying with the UAS, I was taught MDR. Armed with this I was able to fly a light aircraft around a route at 120kts. Today I flew a sortie in one of BEagle's beloved aircraft at 90kts, again using purely MDR. Once again I was able to accurately follow the route and forecast my ETA's.
My rather long-winded point therefore is that (in my admittedly very humble opinion) MDR can achieve the same results as a DC, so what is the problem? In addition, as I see it, MDR is also much more relevant in the case of a diversion - us studes therefore only having to learn one technique for both routine and diversion navigation.
Anyway, I'm off to get that mirror before I can go to the loo.....
BEagle: Naturally I'll use the DC for my skills test - keep the examiner happy and all!
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Sorry Forhom
The DNC is f###### irrelevant for FJ...cannot think of one single instance in last 10 years on any FJ type when it was; therefore there should be no regret some individuals do not know how to use it
however interested to hear it is useful for SAR
would be interested to know why there is no on-board fuel calculation device?
The DNC is f###### irrelevant for FJ...cannot think of one single instance in last 10 years on any FJ type when it was; therefore there should be no regret some individuals do not know how to use it
however interested to hear it is useful for SAR
would be interested to know why there is no on-board fuel calculation device?
Thread Starter
Fordhorn - good for you.
You might wish to download CAA Standards Document 19 from the www.srg.caa.co.uk website from this site:
http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/pu...ls.asp?id=1206
as it will tell you what's required in the Test. Including such things as doing a weight and balance calculation and completing a planning log pre-flight - and 'maintaining' the log in flight...
And by the way, it's not you chaps who are the 'scrotes'!
The only use I had for the DC on fighters, bomber or transports was the TAS computation and airspeed/mach no. calculator... But on slow a/c I certainly did use it for pilot nav pre-flight calculations and so did all the studes (not just mine either!).
You might wish to download CAA Standards Document 19 from the www.srg.caa.co.uk website from this site:
http://www.caa.co.uk/publications/pu...ls.asp?id=1206
as it will tell you what's required in the Test. Including such things as doing a weight and balance calculation and completing a planning log pre-flight - and 'maintaining' the log in flight...
And by the way, it's not you chaps who are the 'scrotes'!
The only use I had for the DC on fighters, bomber or transports was the TAS computation and airspeed/mach no. calculator... But on slow a/c I certainly did use it for pilot nav pre-flight calculations and so did all the studes (not just mine either!).
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BEagle
I see you have backed down nicely on this issue. May I suggest you send your cv to Nbr10 and apply for Alistair Cambell's job.
I'm sure your DC will come in handy for calculating the postage.
FEBA
I see you have backed down nicely on this issue. May I suggest you send your cv to Nbr10 and apply for Alistair Cambell's job.
I'm sure your DC will come in handy for calculating the postage.
FEBA
I must admit to using more MDR than DC in my UAS instructor days but the whizz-wheel does ensure a good understanding of the principles of navigation. I guess, like most things, it is necessary to re-famil yourself with the thing if you are going to be using it for a specific task. I certainly had to sweep a few webs out when it came to preparing for the ATPL exams (back in the days before the JAR dispensations) and getting to grips with the CRP5!
I have to agree with Beags and say that all studes should have a good grounding in the thing. Perhaps if certain sections of the military pilot force don't get training in the use of a DC then they should be the ones to do the Flt Planning exam when it comes time for a license?
I have to agree with Beags and say that all studes should have a good grounding in the thing. Perhaps if certain sections of the military pilot force don't get training in the use of a DC then they should be the ones to do the Flt Planning exam when it comes time for a license?
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BEagle
As a rotorhead I was given two Dalton confusers, one big one and one handy pocket sized doofer, by the magnificent RN, AND taught how to use it. Any students going through Shawbury will use the Dalton to wind their maps prior to a low level nav sortie, or should anyway! I don't know if the pointy drivers are being taught the same way!
Despite the training though I have to admit that I'm now very happy to have an observer to do all the difficult math for me!
"throw the stick monkey another banana!!!"
Cheers
Leprechaun
As a rotorhead I was given two Dalton confusers, one big one and one handy pocket sized doofer, by the magnificent RN, AND taught how to use it. Any students going through Shawbury will use the Dalton to wind their maps prior to a low level nav sortie, or should anyway! I don't know if the pointy drivers are being taught the same way!
Despite the training though I have to admit that I'm now very happy to have an observer to do all the difficult math for me!
"throw the stick monkey another banana!!!"
Cheers
Leprechaun
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A Dalton Computer! I got one of those on Jefts I think. The amount of use it gets is shown purely by the fact I have no idea where it is, and actually dont care.
Beagle- Someone that learns to fly at 90 kts on their Nav route and rigidly sticks to headings planned using FORECAST winds is stupid. Wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if they were the aircraft bimbling thru the wrong circuit totally cluedo. Why not just look out of the window (weird concept huh!) and use features on the ground to find your way round the route instead of spinning the wheel and baffling yourself. If you cant nav using features at 90kts I suggest you hand in your driving licence too since you shouldnt be driving on a dual carriageway for fear of getting lost!
MDR is a proven method of military navigation both in fast jets and slower types. Why use a dated contraption when your systems should be able to give you the answer at the press of a button.
As for your "recomendation", why dont you employ your experience in a more productive way and "teach" the younger pilots how to use the DC for that 1 skill test. Surley cant take more than 5 minutes, then they can throw it in the bin after they land. I cant believe you have so much time on your hands that you have an issue with the lads using this prehistoric GPS, to such an extent that you are becoming a beaurocrat and building more hurdles for them in the shape of effectively disregarding their professional military flying training. As a previous user wrote, I know who I would rather fly with out of a mil trained or pure ppl flyer. Im sure it was so much better in your days and no one got lost whilst flying because they were all proficient DC users, micro navigating to the second.
I cant believe I just sat and typed this. I must be seriously bored! Now where is that DC so I can plan mondays trip.
Beagle- Someone that learns to fly at 90 kts on their Nav route and rigidly sticks to headings planned using FORECAST winds is stupid. Wouldnt surprise me in the slightest if they were the aircraft bimbling thru the wrong circuit totally cluedo. Why not just look out of the window (weird concept huh!) and use features on the ground to find your way round the route instead of spinning the wheel and baffling yourself. If you cant nav using features at 90kts I suggest you hand in your driving licence too since you shouldnt be driving on a dual carriageway for fear of getting lost!
MDR is a proven method of military navigation both in fast jets and slower types. Why use a dated contraption when your systems should be able to give you the answer at the press of a button.
As for your "recomendation", why dont you employ your experience in a more productive way and "teach" the younger pilots how to use the DC for that 1 skill test. Surley cant take more than 5 minutes, then they can throw it in the bin after they land. I cant believe you have so much time on your hands that you have an issue with the lads using this prehistoric GPS, to such an extent that you are becoming a beaurocrat and building more hurdles for them in the shape of effectively disregarding their professional military flying training. As a previous user wrote, I know who I would rather fly with out of a mil trained or pure ppl flyer. Im sure it was so much better in your days and no one got lost whilst flying because they were all proficient DC users, micro navigating to the second.
I cant believe I just sat and typed this. I must be seriously bored! Now where is that DC so I can plan mondays trip.