New Tanker Deal??
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Mary
I speak as a Flt Eng who has seen the light, has gone already and was once an instructor at the School.
Once the school shuts it will never be able to be re-opened. It is true that nothing is impossible but in century 21 politics it will never ever be possible. No one in authority in the Air Farce would ever admit they were wrong, it just doesn't happen!! And re-opening the school could be seen to be just such an admission.
In addition Flt Eng critical core manning is almost at the point where there can be no return. Where would you get the instructors from? Most FE's are so disillusioned that I doubt you would get volunteers and if you did or they ordered pressed men, they would have to come from the last remaining front line posts thus robbing Peter to pay Pauline!!
betty..
Agree with you, eventually I think only BZN and CWL will remain!!!
Why do you need tankers if you have no (or just a few) fighters to refuel?? The Tri* if it comes in would be a big fudge but better that than no tankers at all.
I can't see the PFI AAR programme surviving in the shape it is today, we can't afford it as a nation and as far as Joe Public is concerned we most certainly don't need it!!
I speak as a Flt Eng who has seen the light, has gone already and was once an instructor at the School.
Once the school shuts it will never be able to be re-opened. It is true that nothing is impossible but in century 21 politics it will never ever be possible. No one in authority in the Air Farce would ever admit they were wrong, it just doesn't happen!! And re-opening the school could be seen to be just such an admission.
In addition Flt Eng critical core manning is almost at the point where there can be no return. Where would you get the instructors from? Most FE's are so disillusioned that I doubt you would get volunteers and if you did or they ordered pressed men, they would have to come from the last remaining front line posts thus robbing Peter to pay Pauline!!
betty..
Agree with you, eventually I think only BZN and CWL will remain!!!
Why do you need tankers if you have no (or just a few) fighters to refuel?? The Tri* if it comes in would be a big fudge but better that than no tankers at all.
I can't see the PFI AAR programme surviving in the shape it is today, we can't afford it as a nation and as far as Joe Public is concerned we most certainly don't need it!!
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Which 'civilian' refuellers has the RN operated forever, quite nicely?
The real RN used to operate buddy-buddy with the Vixen and refuel Mark 1 Buccs from Scimitars, plus the SHARs have always used a wide range of AAR assets in-theatre. Quite far forward in fact.
Do enlighten us as to precisely what you are actually referring? If you think hovering over a few drums of kerosene on the back of an oiler or landing at a FARP is the same as FW AAR, perhaps you might care to discuss the matter with your SHAR colleagues.
The real RN used to operate buddy-buddy with the Vixen and refuel Mark 1 Buccs from Scimitars, plus the SHARs have always used a wide range of AAR assets in-theatre. Quite far forward in fact.
Do enlighten us as to precisely what you are actually referring? If you think hovering over a few drums of kerosene on the back of an oiler or landing at a FARP is the same as FW AAR, perhaps you might care to discuss the matter with your SHAR colleagues.
Beagle
He means the Royal Fleet Auxiliary (RFA), you know the grey floaty things which are military but aren't.
Sorry jungly, but not really analagous to getting Air2Bob to do the trail out where-ever-next. RFA don't tout for trade in the normal merchant market when they're not being the HVU.
YS
Which 'civilian' refuellers has the RN operated forever, quite nicely?
Sorry jungly, but not really analagous to getting Air2Bob to do the trail out where-ever-next. RFA don't tout for trade in the normal merchant market when they're not being the HVU.
YS
Strange how the German, Italian and Japanese air forces are all in the process of equipping themselves with 3rd generation tankers of their own, yet the MoD can't afford to?
What exactly went wrong when they tried to produce a 3 point TriStar? Why? Wing flex? Active ailerons? Fatigue? Why was it so very hard?
When did they try?
Who exactly did the trying?
When did they try?
Who exactly did the trying?
The Aquatone Article
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Jacko - Arfur Daley was supposed to have fitted FRL Mk32B pods to the TriShaw back in the mid-to-late '80s when he was converting the ex-ba jets. But failed to - and when the amount of money being poured into the project was queried, work stopped after Questions were Asked in the House.
A gang from Marshall came flying with us once in the Vickers FunBus. When they saw the degree of hose whip associated with winding and trailing, there was some teeth sucking and long faces. "We're probably going to have to redesign the whole pylon", one said.... And that was years after the podded TriStar was supposed to be in service!
But Marshall got a nice hangar out of the whole deal.....
If they couldn't get it right then, what fatih can anyone have in their ability to do it today to ex-desert stored ancient TriShaws well past their use by date?
Mates still in the mob reckon that the RAF would be the laughing stock of the AAR world if, after all the pissing about over PFI/FSTA, they ended up flying yet more clapped-out desert dinosaurs. There's a significant retention incentive amongst many who have the prospect of flying the A330 MRTT - but they certainly don't feel the same about Marshall's plan!
A gang from Marshall came flying with us once in the Vickers FunBus. When they saw the degree of hose whip associated with winding and trailing, there was some teeth sucking and long faces. "We're probably going to have to redesign the whole pylon", one said.... And that was years after the podded TriStar was supposed to be in service!
But Marshall got a nice hangar out of the whole deal.....
If they couldn't get it right then, what fatih can anyone have in their ability to do it today to ex-desert stored ancient TriShaws well past their use by date?
Mates still in the mob reckon that the RAF would be the laughing stock of the AAR world if, after all the pissing about over PFI/FSTA, they ended up flying yet more clapped-out desert dinosaurs. There's a significant retention incentive amongst many who have the prospect of flying the A330 MRTT - but they certainly don't feel the same about Marshall's plan!
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Start with "we have no money"
Was around when the mighty Tri motor came into service, it was the cure to all ills. 3 point tanker,bigger, faster,less crew,longer life blah blah. This relied on a slight redesign of the wings by the Design Auth of sorting the refuelling pods. Jacko why did you have to ask who did the spannering? Now the crew room experts of the time will quote all the buzzwords already mentioned but they also invented "supercritical" ( wing not the proles!) and it was all far too difficult and expensive.
Beags was obviosly closer to the argument than me, but it was all a bit of a let down. We struggled on and removed all the gucci in-flight passenger luxuries and recruited a bunch of hitler youth to work down t'back who are trained to look sullen for long periods. Leaving us with a very big single point petrol station.
Whether or not we get our hands on a decent machine will not really affect the price of fish. Nothing suprises me anymore.
We have no money.
Was around when the mighty Tri motor came into service, it was the cure to all ills. 3 point tanker,bigger, faster,less crew,longer life blah blah. This relied on a slight redesign of the wings by the Design Auth of sorting the refuelling pods. Jacko why did you have to ask who did the spannering? Now the crew room experts of the time will quote all the buzzwords already mentioned but they also invented "supercritical" ( wing not the proles!) and it was all far too difficult and expensive.
Beags was obviosly closer to the argument than me, but it was all a bit of a let down. We struggled on and removed all the gucci in-flight passenger luxuries and recruited a bunch of hitler youth to work down t'back who are trained to look sullen for long periods. Leaving us with a very big single point petrol station.
Whether or not we get our hands on a decent machine will not really affect the price of fish. Nothing suprises me anymore.
We have no money.
New Tanker Deal
If the RAF ever gets a PFI tanker, and it is on the civil register so that it can be used when the RAF doesn't want it, how will they service it? Will all groundcrew get a JAR licence? Perhaps though I have misunderstood its use. I am sure Bald Eagle will put me right!
Red On, Green On
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Strange how the German, Italian and Japanese air forces are all in the process of equipping themselves with 3rd generation tankers of their own, yet the MoD can't afford to?
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My memory is that the TriStar was purchased in the post-Falklands euphoria to satisfy a particular specification which was to tank a Herc to Port Stanley, fail to get in, then tank it back.
Very shortly after they bought the TriStars they started building MPA. The word on the street at the time was that no-one wanted to go back and change the spec to a three point air defence/strategic tanker in case their Airships noticed the original specification no longer applied. No RAF Port Stanley, no need for TriStar tankers.
Very shortly after they bought the TriStars they started building MPA. The word on the street at the time was that no-one wanted to go back and change the spec to a three point air defence/strategic tanker in case their Airships noticed the original specification no longer applied. No RAF Port Stanley, no need for TriStar tankers.
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I can confirm Alex's memory of the initial reason for the Tristar purchase although a lot of people invented a lot more reasons as time went by. The wing pod option came later (or not as it turned out). Having been to several meetings at Cambridge I can also confirm that Marshalls do not come cheap. On asking for NVG compatible electro-luminescent lighting for the line-up lines we were quoted one million pounds per frame and that was in 1982.
Not only that, we only got coffee and biscuits, never a meal.
Not only that, we only got coffee and biscuits, never a meal.
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Art Field and Alex W are mistaken
Your facts are not correct I am afraid. Having worked on both C130 and TriStar tankers I remember that the Herk has never been cleared behind the TriStar. It was tried with the C130K and the vibration as the fin came up behind the TriStar No2 engine was apparently something to behold and handle. It was discussed again when JATE wished to clear the J-model behind the TriStar in 98/99. Fortunately the ex-TTF C130 pilot that had done the original trials was then a TriStar captain and explained as the J fin was the same as the Ks to all intents and purposes it was a waste of time. Unfortunately the TriStar books still show the C130 as a cleared receiver - bit of a waste of time as the C130 books do not show it as cleared to receive from the TriStar.
FMT
FMT
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I can confirm, having tried it, that the Herc K behind the Tristar is not something that should be attempted without acceptance that you might end up finless. It certainly focuses the mind and other parts of the anatomy.
We only just about got to pre-contact before it was agreed that to continue probably wouldn't be a good idea.
We only just about got to pre-contact before it was agreed that to continue probably wouldn't be a good idea.
Which would indicate that the tail of an A400M behind a TriStar might also be subject to some interesting effects...?? Although there was no problem prodding with the Vickers FunBus.
C130/TriStar Clearance
C130K/TriStar Clearance
The C130K has always been cleared behind the TriStar. I think the line in the RTS was 'with strengthened HF aeriels or aeriels removed'. It just wasn't done previously as there were enough suitable alternatives.
The C130K has always been cleared behind the TriStar. I think the line in the RTS was 'with strengthened HF aeriels or aeriels removed'. It just wasn't done previously as there were enough suitable alternatives.
Last edited by mr ripley; 8th Jul 2004 at 06:45.
Re. maintenance of the A330 MRTT; my understanding is that if the a/c and operator are certified to civil ETOPS standards, then any maintenance on the a/c must be performed by ETOPS-qualified personnel to the appropriate JAA quality standards... The full requirements as published by the CAA can be viewed at http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/33/CAP513.pdf
Bodge tape and blacksmithery would not be acceptable.
Bodge tape and blacksmithery would not be acceptable.
Last edited by BEagle; 8th Jul 2004 at 07:13.
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FMT. Whilst the TriStar turned out to be unsuitable as a tanker for the Herc it was bought, in a bit of a rush, as a strategic tanker and the only regular strategic task at the time was the chocolate lorry run to the Falklands. It was only subsequently that its truckie and other refuelling roles were found to make use of what turned out to be a very versatile asset.
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FMT & rudolf
Think you'll find the Herc K is cleared behind the Tri*. Either that or I've been buggering about for hours at a time over the southwest approaches in an illegal fashion.......
Think you'll find the Herc K is cleared behind the Tri*. Either that or I've been buggering about for hours at a time over the southwest approaches in an illegal fashion.......