What would you cut?
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Whowhenwhy
You clearly have no comprehension of the MPA role since submarines sodded off.
SWOs. Getting excited because we carry rucksacks over our left shoulders instead of our right.
Stn Cdrs because if we failed our fitness tests then aircraft would fall out of the sky, contrary to your performance figures.
Rocks. Enough said
You clearly have no comprehension of the MPA role since submarines sodded off.
SWOs. Getting excited because we carry rucksacks over our left shoulders instead of our right.
Stn Cdrs because if we failed our fitness tests then aircraft would fall out of the sky, contrary to your performance figures.
Rocks. Enough said
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Gents and Ladies, lets cut the dead wood out, reduce the Star ranks and the rest of the Officer core re ranked to correct levels, whilst binning all those staff jobs that have been created throughout the years.
i.e.
Flights commanded by FL
Sqns by SL
Bases by WC
Groups by GP CPT
and like the IsAF a 2 star boss
Re rank all other aircrew as SNCO's after all buckets of instant sunshine have been gone for years. Then if the bloke wants a comission send him to Cranwell and let him do the SOO jobs. Whilst those that want to stay flying stay in the cockpit/back end. Same could be said for all those other jobs with Sengo as only ENG O on Sqn and V Experienced SNCO's doing the JENGO's job. A FL in hand brake house with the WO running it properly. Add FL SATCO and in Area as the Supervisor and if you want a comission then back to cranwell you go. Stop all this direct comission and let people be selected from the ranks after showing they have what is needed to make it as a leader of men.
You could go through the whole of the RAF on this basis and let people who want to do the job would i think stay in. Whilst getting rid of all the PC BOlocks such as IIP, 6000's, OJARS and the rest. Savings on air rank alone would let us fund Typhoon, especially if they set a single pension rate such as exists at the rankers level.
Then we start on the Civies, get some top lawyers in to write the contacts not some SL/WC on a 2 year tour. Load them with penality clauses and BWOS will be having to pay us to take the aircraft/systems off their hands. Or support us for free for years.
Give the Sqns ac and weapons that work, and that includes the Rocks, cause i'm damn sure that i sleep better with those lads walking the wire than the plods and mod plods doing it.
Then start on the civil servants, get them to find 3 servicemen who say that that post is needed and they can keep the job. Otherwise out they go.
As for the RN and the Army deal with them in a like manner,but when it comes to getting new weapons, (across the board) ask the poor Idiot who has to fight with it, what he/she wants to replace, improve or swap it for.
i.e.
Flights commanded by FL
Sqns by SL
Bases by WC
Groups by GP CPT
and like the IsAF a 2 star boss
Re rank all other aircrew as SNCO's after all buckets of instant sunshine have been gone for years. Then if the bloke wants a comission send him to Cranwell and let him do the SOO jobs. Whilst those that want to stay flying stay in the cockpit/back end. Same could be said for all those other jobs with Sengo as only ENG O on Sqn and V Experienced SNCO's doing the JENGO's job. A FL in hand brake house with the WO running it properly. Add FL SATCO and in Area as the Supervisor and if you want a comission then back to cranwell you go. Stop all this direct comission and let people be selected from the ranks after showing they have what is needed to make it as a leader of men.
You could go through the whole of the RAF on this basis and let people who want to do the job would i think stay in. Whilst getting rid of all the PC BOlocks such as IIP, 6000's, OJARS and the rest. Savings on air rank alone would let us fund Typhoon, especially if they set a single pension rate such as exists at the rankers level.
Then we start on the Civies, get some top lawyers in to write the contacts not some SL/WC on a 2 year tour. Load them with penality clauses and BWOS will be having to pay us to take the aircraft/systems off their hands. Or support us for free for years.
Give the Sqns ac and weapons that work, and that includes the Rocks, cause i'm damn sure that i sleep better with those lads walking the wire than the plods and mod plods doing it.
Then start on the civil servants, get them to find 3 servicemen who say that that post is needed and they can keep the job. Otherwise out they go.
As for the RN and the Army deal with them in a like manner,but when it comes to getting new weapons, (across the board) ask the poor Idiot who has to fight with it, what he/she wants to replace, improve or swap it for.
Last edited by trap one; 14th Mar 2004 at 00:38.
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One, very obvious, answer. Close all of the RAF 'sleepy hollows' and make the land-lubbing bunties work at stations with dirty, noisy aircraft. That might make them realise why they are in the RAF - to provide a service and not to prevent us from operating by saving 2p here and there.
Whowhenwhy - Close kinloss?? The airfield with one of the best weather factors in the UK - better than Lossie! Close Waddo, too much fog and too often to be any use for combat aircraft. That's why we station airliners there!!
Whowhenwhy - Close kinloss?? The airfield with one of the best weather factors in the UK - better than Lossie! Close Waddo, too much fog and too often to be any use for combat aircraft. That's why we station airliners there!!
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To be honest reading through this has become quite a suprise. I know this thread was meant to determine what is felt to be least important and much of a wate to the RAF, but some of you sound seem gunho about axing capabilities.
I've read about getting rid of the SWO (you're in the military so deal with it!!!)
getting rid of fitness tests(again, you're in the military so deal with it!!!)
Getting shot of Regt (you clearly have no clue what they do, especially if you reckon they patrol a fence, and infact they want to increase its size. And no, it wouldn't work merging with the RAF police, they do a completely different job.
Honestly, how would many of you feel if the RAF was reduced to 10 stations!!! It may aswell go back to the RFC and RNAS at this rate!!!
I certainly agree with getting rid of IIP, civil servants, and generally a good look at what REMFS are up to.
Can anyone actually explain the flight ops role to me, and why its needed????
Rant over
I've read about getting rid of the SWO (you're in the military so deal with it!!!)
getting rid of fitness tests(again, you're in the military so deal with it!!!)
Getting shot of Regt (you clearly have no clue what they do, especially if you reckon they patrol a fence, and infact they want to increase its size. And no, it wouldn't work merging with the RAF police, they do a completely different job.
Honestly, how would many of you feel if the RAF was reduced to 10 stations!!! It may aswell go back to the RFC and RNAS at this rate!!!
I certainly agree with getting rid of IIP, civil servants, and generally a good look at what REMFS are up to.
Can anyone actually explain the flight ops role to me, and why its needed????
Rant over
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Cut civil servants. Definitely. Like I said on an earlier thread, here are the facts:
On scanning the recent Armed Forces Pay Review Body Report, I was intrigued to read that there were 131 military officers of 2* rank, or above. I also noted there were 3700 equivalent ‘Senior Civil Servants’, who seem, incidentally, to be paid more than their military equivalents. I assumed the 3700 figure meant across all departments of government, not just MOD.
Here, www.mod.uk/aboutus/keyfacts/numbers.htm total military numbers are given as 205,700 (ok, 2001 data – but wtf?). This gives a ratio of 1 senior military bloke for every 1570 serving personnel.
For the Senior Civil Servants, taken from here, http://www.civil-service.gov.uk/stat...fing-oct03.pdf I note the total number of permanent & casual full time equivalent Civil Servants is given as 522,050.
This gives a ratio of 1 Senior Civil Servant for every 141 Civil Servants – more than 10 times the equivalent military ratio.
Which does this highlight more: Armed Forces efficiency or Civil Service profligacy?
And how is the notion of rank/grade equivalence sustained? Civ Servs' span of control and scope of responsibility is always less in their stay at home, stay alive, 37.5 hour week.
On scanning the recent Armed Forces Pay Review Body Report, I was intrigued to read that there were 131 military officers of 2* rank, or above. I also noted there were 3700 equivalent ‘Senior Civil Servants’, who seem, incidentally, to be paid more than their military equivalents. I assumed the 3700 figure meant across all departments of government, not just MOD.
Here, www.mod.uk/aboutus/keyfacts/numbers.htm total military numbers are given as 205,700 (ok, 2001 data – but wtf?). This gives a ratio of 1 senior military bloke for every 1570 serving personnel.
For the Senior Civil Servants, taken from here, http://www.civil-service.gov.uk/stat...fing-oct03.pdf I note the total number of permanent & casual full time equivalent Civil Servants is given as 522,050.
This gives a ratio of 1 Senior Civil Servant for every 141 Civil Servants – more than 10 times the equivalent military ratio.
Which does this highlight more: Armed Forces efficiency or Civil Service profligacy?
And how is the notion of rank/grade equivalence sustained? Civ Servs' span of control and scope of responsibility is always less in their stay at home, stay alive, 37.5 hour week.
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Ears, old son!
Sounds like it's time for a letter to that bastion of HM forces - the SUN!
Unfortunately, there seems to be only one way to get this govt to do anything - shame them. (and even that doesn't work most of the time as they are so arrogant!)
I have never witnessed a bunch that are more self-interested than this lot - and that's accepting that in general, all politicians are as bad as each other. I hope the nation makes em all redundant at the next election - whether it's the General Election or through the local election of MPs.
Lying B45t4rds
(IMHO)
Sounds like it's time for a letter to that bastion of HM forces - the SUN!
Unfortunately, there seems to be only one way to get this govt to do anything - shame them. (and even that doesn't work most of the time as they are so arrogant!)
I have never witnessed a bunch that are more self-interested than this lot - and that's accepting that in general, all politicians are as bad as each other. I hope the nation makes em all redundant at the next election - whether it's the General Election or through the local election of MPs.
Lying B45t4rds
(IMHO)
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NVQs
November4 wrote:
It's still MY tax maney that pays and it's a waste of time IMHO! I have trained staff that I cannot use for ops because they are too busy chasing round after people who don't want to be in the programme in the first place.
No, I don't think so. The posts would not exist, so who would we be paying exactly?
I appreciate that, but why? NVQs don't make the individuals any better at their primary jobs so why are they being paid more? Get rid of the assessor posts, move the money into MOD and maybe they could be paid more for doing their primary jobs well.
That might explain why some of my best operators are keen to take up the role!
On the subject of RAF Regt guarding, I think the person being lambasted was misunderstood, but I can't seem to find the quote. What I think they were saying was that they would rather see the RAF Regt patrolling the fence that Plod. At some Units, the only personnel not eligible for guard duty are the RAFP! Madness?
RANT ON
What really grips my sh%t is seeing people professionally trained to perform operational and technical roles prevented from doing so to guard the gate. You don't expect to see British Airways technicians taking their turn at strolling round the departure lounge with HKs! Investment in People should be a state of mind, where we train people to do what is required, then employ them to do what they are trained for. What we don't need is expensive external assessment demanding paperwork to prove that people do their jobs in a professional manner so that they can get certificates that in many cases are neither relevant nor meaningful inside or outside the Services!
RANT OFF
Back to savings ...
Not a trick question this, but following on from Anton Dhorn's quote:
Why don't you enlighten us?
Cutting NVQs out would save......not very much as the costs of delivery etc are met by drawing down funds from the Government's education department which is separte and totally different from the MoD's budget. Not doing NVQs would mean this money cannot be gained.
If anything cutting out NVQs would mean that station budgets would have to increase because the wages of the NVQ staff are met from Innsworth via this funding.
What do they achieve - the chance for the lowly paid airman to jump a year in his increments.
BTW if you are an NVQ assessor in the work place - you can now be paid around £45 per unit you sign off.
On the subject of RAF Regt guarding, I think the person being lambasted was misunderstood, but I can't seem to find the quote. What I think they were saying was that they would rather see the RAF Regt patrolling the fence that Plod. At some Units, the only personnel not eligible for guard duty are the RAFP! Madness?
RANT ON
What really grips my sh%t is seeing people professionally trained to perform operational and technical roles prevented from doing so to guard the gate. You don't expect to see British Airways technicians taking their turn at strolling round the departure lounge with HKs! Investment in People should be a state of mind, where we train people to do what is required, then employ them to do what they are trained for. What we don't need is expensive external assessment demanding paperwork to prove that people do their jobs in a professional manner so that they can get certificates that in many cases are neither relevant nor meaningful inside or outside the Services!
RANT OFF
Back to savings ...
Not a trick question this, but following on from Anton Dhorn's quote:
You clearly have no comprehension of the MPA role since submarines sodded off.
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About the Regt, i meant guarding in the broadest possible meaning. I've been at locations where the Regt have provided BDZ and Ground Defence at Sqn strength levels, in operational theatres. They made me feel safe by their professional approaches to both areas. The plods should go back to doing the Guard room be they Mod or Boys in white hats, and if we're continually shafted by the EU, then we stop the self flagulation of CM's and use those high paid lawyers i talked about to draw up descent employment contracts. Because I for one am fed up seeing idiots that are repeatedly late for work given the oppertunity to go for CM. If they are late for the shift then get them where it hurts in the pocket by deducting the money at the end of the month. I know that the hours that people work in the services are far more than the 37 hour week, but there are a lot of managers who are paid on time off in lieu or not. If the offense is of a more serious nature then let the civvy bill in to handle the matter and then if they are sent down, well services no longer required.
Instead of having NVQ assessors going round being paid loads of dosh, get them in once. Get each and every job assessed and if you can do the job you get given an NVQ I.E a WO or WC gets an NVQ 4 in management. Pilots get their PPL, ATC/AD Controllers get a civvy ticket, RN ship drivers get their civvy Merchant tickets, E.T.C.
Let people do the job they are trained for, with a civvy equivalent, so they can get employment after they leave the mob. But i believe that if they are happy doing the job they like and they don't have to suffer the aditional PC S41T then very few would leave.
As for SirToppamHat i too have seen people who are ZERO use outside of the Basic training/NVQ jobs.
As for doing the job of normal trades walking the wire then let every body do it in peace time, that is without exception. We are all targtes of terrorists, be they from Near or far. So we should always protect our self. What gets my and i believe other people goats is those who on the smallest of excuses manager to avoid doing the training and the duty.
Vage Rot i heartly aree about the saving of 2p, having recieved a demand for 24p sent to me at a new station by civvy post and having been sent in an envelope with a first class stamp on it 26p. Why not have those people there to read the books totelluse how we can do something, rather than why we can't do some thing cause their interpreatation of the regs says we can't.
Talking about Budgets, when the station managed budget was mutted i thought great, a degree of flexability. But as usual i was disappointed, let the WC station commanders run their own budget, (ok within guidelines) but without micro management. From the top, tell people what they want doing give them guidelines and advice if they need it. Then trust them to get the job done!!!!
But why shut stations, if they open more there is more jobs for people. Less poverity, less unemployment, better local economies. As even i don't think we can re-open many of the london sites. With a rebuilding program that encompasses technical sites and accomodation the building trade gets more money and civvy housing willnt be in such dire straits as all those who can't afford first time houses till age 34 are helped out with a good life in the forces till they deceide they want to by.
Yes and i know that all the hogs will be ready to fly for the 1st wave on monday morning. But what a change, people actually thinking what they could improve in the mob.
PS Flight Ops was created to let the aircrew working on the desks go back into the jobs they were trained/paid for.
Instead of having NVQ assessors going round being paid loads of dosh, get them in once. Get each and every job assessed and if you can do the job you get given an NVQ I.E a WO or WC gets an NVQ 4 in management. Pilots get their PPL, ATC/AD Controllers get a civvy ticket, RN ship drivers get their civvy Merchant tickets, E.T.C.
Let people do the job they are trained for, with a civvy equivalent, so they can get employment after they leave the mob. But i believe that if they are happy doing the job they like and they don't have to suffer the aditional PC S41T then very few would leave.
As for SirToppamHat i too have seen people who are ZERO use outside of the Basic training/NVQ jobs.
As for doing the job of normal trades walking the wire then let every body do it in peace time, that is without exception. We are all targtes of terrorists, be they from Near or far. So we should always protect our self. What gets my and i believe other people goats is those who on the smallest of excuses manager to avoid doing the training and the duty.
Vage Rot i heartly aree about the saving of 2p, having recieved a demand for 24p sent to me at a new station by civvy post and having been sent in an envelope with a first class stamp on it 26p. Why not have those people there to read the books totelluse how we can do something, rather than why we can't do some thing cause their interpreatation of the regs says we can't.
Talking about Budgets, when the station managed budget was mutted i thought great, a degree of flexability. But as usual i was disappointed, let the WC station commanders run their own budget, (ok within guidelines) but without micro management. From the top, tell people what they want doing give them guidelines and advice if they need it. Then trust them to get the job done!!!!
But why shut stations, if they open more there is more jobs for people. Less poverity, less unemployment, better local economies. As even i don't think we can re-open many of the london sites. With a rebuilding program that encompasses technical sites and accomodation the building trade gets more money and civvy housing willnt be in such dire straits as all those who can't afford first time houses till age 34 are helped out with a good life in the forces till they deceide they want to by.
Yes and i know that all the hogs will be ready to fly for the 1st wave on monday morning. But what a change, people actually thinking what they could improve in the mob.
PS Flight Ops was created to let the aircrew working on the desks go back into the jobs they were trained/paid for.
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This cannot be same as the Vulcan thread
The Vulcan left service many years ago and any interesting stories about it can be told without fear of reprisals. Not so with the Nimrod, which might come from the same era as the Vulcan, but it is still flying and people will be reluctant to air their dirty linen, etc.
I could mention some pubished events:
3 incidents on the ground in recent years: a taxying aircraft striking a building in Gib, a parked aircraft rolled backward over the (tactical) nosewheel chocks which were the only chocks fitted. A parked but unchocked aircraft, supposedly with the paking brake applied, rolled forward.
We've had non-operating pilots stood on the flight deck during aborted take-offs falling forward in to the throttle pedestal. We've had a Nimrod land on a flooded runway and run off the end of the stopway and into the clearway. It was night and at least 15 mins after the rain stopped but there was a lack of drainage and wind to blow the water away.
Despite diligence and common sense in everything we do up here, we are not without incident.
I could mention some pubished events:
3 incidents on the ground in recent years: a taxying aircraft striking a building in Gib, a parked aircraft rolled backward over the (tactical) nosewheel chocks which were the only chocks fitted. A parked but unchocked aircraft, supposedly with the paking brake applied, rolled forward.
We've had non-operating pilots stood on the flight deck during aborted take-offs falling forward in to the throttle pedestal. We've had a Nimrod land on a flooded runway and run off the end of the stopway and into the clearway. It was night and at least 15 mins after the rain stopped but there was a lack of drainage and wind to blow the water away.
Despite diligence and common sense in everything we do up here, we are not without incident.
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STH...
Probably because when AD joined up, and then again during the vetting process, he/she signed a certain Act of Parliament that, rightly so, prevents him/her from doing so.
Just get it into your head that Nimrods do not simply hunt for subs and do SAR.
MadMark!!!
Why don't you enlighten us?
Just get it into your head that Nimrods do not simply hunt for subs and do SAR.
MadMark!!!
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I understand that the RAF has more personnel per aircraft than any other air force on the planet and having worked on an RAF station for the last year or so I can see that that is probably true.
I won't quote some of the numbers that work in various departments here and the number of aircraft that they support (V V small) for obvious reasons, but the figures are staggering.
This is not a pop at anyone (it's obvious that I am not a crab) but in todays budget driven climate it is more than a little surprising that the ratio of personnel to aircraft remains as it is.
I won't quote some of the numbers that work in various departments here and the number of aircraft that they support (V V small) for obvious reasons, but the figures are staggering.
This is not a pop at anyone (it's obvious that I am not a crab) but in todays budget driven climate it is more than a little surprising that the ratio of personnel to aircraft remains as it is.
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Bullet
...but check out the NHS for personnel per desk ratios. Visit your sick friend/relative in your local hospital and see how many nurses are stacked on the desk at the end of the ward, drinking tea, nattering and pointedly refusing to attend to their patients' needs. And the patients and their visitors are too meek to ask for help because 'I don't want to make a fuss'. Seven is the most I've seen, by the way....so far. NHS understaffed? My b*m! At least the excess RAF personnel get on with their work and the RAF gets well-serviced aircraft that function most of the time. But the NHS's patients....God help 'em.
This does not apply to A&E, whose staff earn every penny and deserve medals every time they turn up on shift, especially on weekend nights. Or to those TA medics in GW2 who appeared to do more work than the regulars.
Sorry about the irrelevant rant but it makes my blood boil - but I won't be seeking NHS help for that condition.
...but check out the NHS for personnel per desk ratios. Visit your sick friend/relative in your local hospital and see how many nurses are stacked on the desk at the end of the ward, drinking tea, nattering and pointedly refusing to attend to their patients' needs. And the patients and their visitors are too meek to ask for help because 'I don't want to make a fuss'. Seven is the most I've seen, by the way....so far. NHS understaffed? My b*m! At least the excess RAF personnel get on with their work and the RAF gets well-serviced aircraft that function most of the time. But the NHS's patients....God help 'em.
This does not apply to A&E, whose staff earn every penny and deserve medals every time they turn up on shift, especially on weekend nights. Or to those TA medics in GW2 who appeared to do more work than the regulars.
Sorry about the irrelevant rant but it makes my blood boil - but I won't be seeking NHS help for that condition.
Zoom, careful with the generalisations. You may have had a bad experience with the NHS but as I write Mrs Glide is at work on a NHS medical ward, 24 patients and only 3 nurses on the shift because they cannot find any more! The nurses there would just love to have the time to drink tea if only just once per shift. NHS undermanned.....no doubt. Over-managed absobl00dylutely!
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woptb,
here in Canuck Land we haven't had the same uniform for over 15 years. The 20 years that we were forced to wear the green garbage bag of the Unified Force, were the worst imaginable for morale.
here in Canuck Land we haven't had the same uniform for over 15 years. The 20 years that we were forced to wear the green garbage bag of the Unified Force, were the worst imaginable for morale.
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What would I cut? Hmmmn! How about every Senoir Officer? No, allright then how about every Sqn Ldr who is not in charge of a Squadron, every Wg Cdr that isn't in charge of a Wing, every Gp Capt who is't in charge of a Group etc etc. We'd save millions and probably run smoother.
I'm sick of all the power battles on my Sqn where the 5 Sqn Ldr's are all trying to run the place, all wanting different things and having different opinions on how the sqn should be run.
All in all we could run without half the number of officers we have we are soon to be so small do we need HQ STC, DLO etc etc?
Put the few remaining ac types on one main unit with all it's support at that main unit where everything actually happens so that reality checks can be carried out when these top level decisions are taken and those in command can see the results of their actions rather than get some statty to fudge some figures to make it all look a success.
Then all we have to do is get rid of politicians!!
I'm sick of all the power battles on my Sqn where the 5 Sqn Ldr's are all trying to run the place, all wanting different things and having different opinions on how the sqn should be run.
All in all we could run without half the number of officers we have we are soon to be so small do we need HQ STC, DLO etc etc?
Put the few remaining ac types on one main unit with all it's support at that main unit where everything actually happens so that reality checks can be carried out when these top level decisions are taken and those in command can see the results of their actions rather than get some statty to fudge some figures to make it all look a success.
Then all we have to do is get rid of politicians!!