Ty-fun
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It would be interesting to learn whether or not the gun has been restored on the quiet simply as ballast; whether it has been restored on the quiet as a fully-working option; or whether it is, in fact, still the case that no gun will be installed on Tranche 2 and Tranche 3 aircraft (assuming that the latter are built).
Now the Typhoon will replace the Tornado F3 in this role and the protocol looks set to remain in palce for the foreseable future. So as I see it there is not only a desire by the RAF (if not the MoD) to retain the cannon armament but also there is a requirement for it if the above protocol is to be adhered to.
Thoughts anyone?
Regards.
Phil.
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Frogbox
Some more detail - note the author!
The New Air Superiority Benchmark.
Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer.
It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre.
The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated, and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.
It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter result would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the mid-seventies and with an exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero losses, and a bunch of die-hard Eurofighter critics without much knowledge of the new fighter air combat capabilities. It is understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their surprise at the outcome, as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the first training sortie with a brand new machine against one of the best combat units in the world, riding what up to now has been the best fighter in history.
But that is history now! Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake District skies signify are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command, the Chief of Staff and the RAND Corp. analysts and boffins.
They have been saying for years that the F-15 is no match to the new generation of European fighters and even to the Su-35 Flanker. They know what they say: their operational analyses studies and other simulated evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority against Eurofighter Typhoon. Now they have the first real indication that their worries were not unjustified and that the F/A-22 was the right choice, if they want to maintain the air superiority also in the future.
Let me quote some of their concerns over the years:
The current USAF Chief of Staff, Gen. John P. Jumper, when was the head of Air Combat Command in 2001, said, "We 've had a chance to look at this latest generation of airplanes," and when US pilots flying real or simulated threat airplanes go against US pilots in current US fighters, "our guys flying their airplanes beat our guys flying our airplanes....And that airplane we 're flying is the F-15."
"I 've got 2,000 hours in the F-15," noted Brig. Gen. Daniel P. Leaf, the head of operational requirements. "It is a fabulous airplane. It is the undefeated heavy-weight champion of air superiority." Even so, he said, "it 's still a 1970s-designed airplane, updated to the max. [It is ] nonstealthy, non super-cruise. And you can only make it do so much....You have to build a new airplane. So we are."
Lt. Gen. Bruce A. Carlson, then director of operational requirements for the Air Force, said that "if we run the F-15 against the Rafale, or Typhoon, or Su-35, we would probably lose those fights."
"Typhoon will easily outstrip the capabilities of the Su-35 /-37, as well as the F-15, and in fact is considered second only to the F-22 in capability. Typhoon is more maneuverable and has better radar detection capability than the F-15 and is harder to detect on radar."
(All the citations are from the AIR FORCE Magazine, the USAF monthly publication).
The Air Forces of Germany, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom have known for a long time through the operational analysis studies conducted in defining the project, in re-evaluating it after the Cold War defence re-orientation phase that Eurofighter
Typhoon is second only to the vastly more expensive F/A-22 and that it will assure overwhelming superiority over any current and future air threat.
Export customers in Austria, Greece and Norway have expressed
their confidence in Eurofighter Typhoon's capabilities by either
procuring, selecting or seriously considering it for their air power
needs in the 21st century. Many other leading edge Air Forces are looking with great interest at Eurofighter Typhoon as it enters service and demonstrates its unparalleled capabilities. We do not think that there is much of a debate about the need for air superiority, but there is a lack of appreciation for where air
superiority comes from. There is a general feeling that it just
happens or it belongs to us. Nothing could be further from the truth.
We have air superiority because we had four Air Forces that paid
attention to the lessons of history, specified and developed the
appropriate weapon systems and move them forward. They know that "if we lose the war in the air, we lose the war and we lose it quickly" and that whoever controls the air generally controls the surface.
Eurofighter Typhoon, designed as a multirole fighter with air
superiority as its key driver, is now ready to move forward and add significant new air-to-surface capabilities and further extend its air-to-air dominance.
O. Fabbro - Eurofighter GmbH - Market Analysis
Hallbergmoos, 23 February 2004
Some more detail - note the author!
The New Air Superiority Benchmark.
Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year
crown to a newcomer.
It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre.
The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated, and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.
It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter result would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the mid-seventies and with an exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero losses, and a bunch of die-hard Eurofighter critics without much knowledge of the new fighter air combat capabilities. It is understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their surprise at the outcome, as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the first training sortie with a brand new machine against one of the best combat units in the world, riding what up to now has been the best fighter in history.
But that is history now! Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake District skies signify are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command, the Chief of Staff and the RAND Corp. analysts and boffins.
They have been saying for years that the F-15 is no match to the new generation of European fighters and even to the Su-35 Flanker. They know what they say: their operational analyses studies and other simulated evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority against Eurofighter Typhoon. Now they have the first real indication that their worries were not unjustified and that the F/A-22 was the right choice, if they want to maintain the air superiority also in the future.
Let me quote some of their concerns over the years:
The current USAF Chief of Staff, Gen. John P. Jumper, when was the head of Air Combat Command in 2001, said, "We 've had a chance to look at this latest generation of airplanes," and when US pilots flying real or simulated threat airplanes go against US pilots in current US fighters, "our guys flying their airplanes beat our guys flying our airplanes....And that airplane we 're flying is the F-15."
"I 've got 2,000 hours in the F-15," noted Brig. Gen. Daniel P. Leaf, the head of operational requirements. "It is a fabulous airplane. It is the undefeated heavy-weight champion of air superiority." Even so, he said, "it 's still a 1970s-designed airplane, updated to the max. [It is ] nonstealthy, non super-cruise. And you can only make it do so much....You have to build a new airplane. So we are."
Lt. Gen. Bruce A. Carlson, then director of operational requirements for the Air Force, said that "if we run the F-15 against the Rafale, or Typhoon, or Su-35, we would probably lose those fights."
"Typhoon will easily outstrip the capabilities of the Su-35 /-37, as well as the F-15, and in fact is considered second only to the F-22 in capability. Typhoon is more maneuverable and has better radar detection capability than the F-15 and is harder to detect on radar."
(All the citations are from the AIR FORCE Magazine, the USAF monthly publication).
The Air Forces of Germany, Italy, Spain and the United Kingdom have known for a long time through the operational analysis studies conducted in defining the project, in re-evaluating it after the Cold War defence re-orientation phase that Eurofighter
Typhoon is second only to the vastly more expensive F/A-22 and that it will assure overwhelming superiority over any current and future air threat.
Export customers in Austria, Greece and Norway have expressed
their confidence in Eurofighter Typhoon's capabilities by either
procuring, selecting or seriously considering it for their air power
needs in the 21st century. Many other leading edge Air Forces are looking with great interest at Eurofighter Typhoon as it enters service and demonstrates its unparalleled capabilities. We do not think that there is much of a debate about the need for air superiority, but there is a lack of appreciation for where air
superiority comes from. There is a general feeling that it just
happens or it belongs to us. Nothing could be further from the truth.
We have air superiority because we had four Air Forces that paid
attention to the lessons of history, specified and developed the
appropriate weapon systems and move them forward. They know that "if we lose the war in the air, we lose the war and we lose it quickly" and that whoever controls the air generally controls the surface.
Eurofighter Typhoon, designed as a multirole fighter with air
superiority as its key driver, is now ready to move forward and add significant new air-to-surface capabilities and further extend its air-to-air dominance.
O. Fabbro - Eurofighter GmbH - Market Analysis
Hallbergmoos, 23 February 2004
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I got a reply from the 48th TFW. to the following
and the reply
Dear Sir
My Name is John Cook webadmin for www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk
Ph. 0242973729
Deadline - I'd like the information ASAP Please.
Could you please help me with some information in regard to an
incident on Thursday the 19th of February 2004 over the skies of
Windermere, it is reported that Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es apparently
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW.
Could you please give me some background information on this incident.
Firstly, Did this happen?, and If so
1. Was it an preplanned exercise?.
2. Which aircraft from the 48th were involved.
3. What was their loadout, eg Conformal fuel tanks, weapons.
4. What exactly happend?.
Many thanks
John Cook
My Name is John Cook webadmin for www.eurofighter-typhoon.co.uk
Ph. 0242973729
Deadline - I'd like the information ASAP Please.
Could you please help me with some information in regard to an
incident on Thursday the 19th of February 2004 over the skies of
Windermere, it is reported that Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters
were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15Es apparently
belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW.
Could you please give me some background information on this incident.
Firstly, Did this happen?, and If so
1. Was it an preplanned exercise?.
2. Which aircraft from the 48th were involved.
3. What was their loadout, eg Conformal fuel tanks, weapons.
4. What exactly happend?.
Many thanks
John Cook
Thank you for your enquiry.
For reasons of operational security, we would not be permitted to release
operational training details. As your enquiry relates to the Eurofighter, I
would suggest you contact the MOD via their website at
http://www.mod.uk/contacts/index.html.
v/r
Suzanne Harper
SECRETARY
48FW/PA
Tel: Commercial (UK): 01638-522151
Tel: (US) 011- 44-1638-522151
DSN: 226-2151
Fax: (DSN) 226- 5637
Fax: (Commercial) 01638 - 525637
e-mail: [email protected]
For reasons of operational security, we would not be permitted to release
operational training details. As your enquiry relates to the Eurofighter, I
would suggest you contact the MOD via their website at
http://www.mod.uk/contacts/index.html.
v/r
Suzanne Harper
SECRETARY
48FW/PA
Tel: Commercial (UK): 01638-522151
Tel: (US) 011- 44-1638-522151
DSN: 226-2151
Fax: (DSN) 226- 5637
Fax: (Commercial) 01638 - 525637
e-mail: [email protected]
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Thats the thin end of the wedge, I also sent an email to
The UK's RAF foreigh liasion officer for clarification.
Eurofighter GmbH for confirmation.
And the Sun newspaper for a contradiction.
I'll let you know the results
Cheers
The UK's RAF foreigh liasion officer for clarification.
Eurofighter GmbH for confirmation.
And the Sun newspaper for a contradiction.
I'll let you know the results
Cheers
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I thought the Case White boys were limited to not much more than boring holes in the sky.
Reading the above I presume all those restrictions are now lifted - does that mean the aircraft now has a proper MAR/RTS?
Reading the above I presume all those restrictions are now lifted - does that mean the aircraft now has a proper MAR/RTS?
Suspicion breeds confidence
An update from Strategypage
An interesting post from another board.
>>Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15s belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.
It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter result would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the mid-seventies and with an exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero losses, and a bunch of die-hard Eurofighter critics without much knowledge of the new fighter air combat capabilities. It is understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their surprise at the outcome, as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the first training sortie with a brand new machine against one of the best combat units in the world, riding what up to now has been the best fighter in history.
But that is history now!
Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake District skies signify are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command, the Chief of Staff and the RAND Corp. analysts and boffins. They have been saying for years that the F-15 is no match to the new generation of European fighters and even to the Su-35 Flanker. They know what they say: their operational analyses studies and other simulated evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority against Eurofighter Typhoon. Now they have the first real indication that their worries were not unjustified and that the F/A-22 was the right choice, if they want to maintain the air superiority also in the future.
>>Thursday the 19th of February 2004 will mark the day when the undisputed king of air superiority had to surrender its thirty-year crown to a newcomer. It happened over the skies of Windermere, in the scenic English Lake District. Two Eurofighter Typhoon twin-seaters were on the first RAF formation training flight from Warton Aerodrome when they were bounced from the eight o'clock by a couple of F-15s belonging to the USAFE's 48th TFW, probably the most formidable and experienced combat unit in the European theatre. The Typhoon crew did not seem to be intimidated and with two rapid counters ended up on the F-15 tail, comfortably gunning the trailing one, who was in full afterburner, wings rocking and wondering what had happened.
It is fair to expect that the most surprised by this first encounter result would be the F15 crew, used to dominate the skies since the mid-seventies and with an exchange ratio record of 101 wins to zero losses, and a bunch of die-hard Eurofighter critics without much knowledge of the new fighter air combat capabilities. It is understandable if the RAF rookies would also show their surprise at the outcome, as one does not expect to win an air engagement on the first training sortie with a brand new machine against one of the best combat units in the world, riding what up to now has been the best fighter in history.
But that is history now!
Those definitely not surprised by what the events over the Lake District skies signify are the top echelon in the Air Combat Command, the Chief of Staff and the RAND Corp. analysts and boffins. They have been saying for years that the F-15 is no match to the new generation of European fighters and even to the Su-35 Flanker. They know what they say: their operational analyses studies and other simulated evaluations-as indeed have ours, both at the industry and government level-have shown that the F-15 is unable to gain air superiority against Eurofighter Typhoon. Now they have the first real indication that their worries were not unjustified and that the F/A-22 was the right choice, if they want to maintain the air superiority also in the future.
A gun would be nice if against helo or herc in the post viz-ident scenario (Kosovo/Bosnia). Much better to give a quick radar laid burst rather than waste a juicy little Meteor.
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I've always thought the proliferation of UAVs was the biggest argument for retaining the Mauser. Little point in wasting Asraams or Meteors on a target that costs a fraction of the missile. Or is the new Typhoon going to continue the RAF tradition of 'wing tipping' UAVs...?!
I/C
I/C
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Stop stop stop.
The whole Typhoon debate has been characterised by wild accusations, wild timeframes and now, it seems by wild reports of our brave boys. While I have no doubt that Typhoon is a very capable Air Combat airframe, a single unvalidated account from an RAF pilot is hardly conclusive proof of anything, except that pilots like to talk about themselves.
Make way for the NEW Air Combat King, it's called the F22, it's less late, more capable and doesn't come with the bitter taste of political interference and ineptitude. Typhoon had it all, and then we let monkeys build it!
The whole Typhoon debate has been characterised by wild accusations, wild timeframes and now, it seems by wild reports of our brave boys. While I have no doubt that Typhoon is a very capable Air Combat airframe, a single unvalidated account from an RAF pilot is hardly conclusive proof of anything, except that pilots like to talk about themselves.
Make way for the NEW Air Combat King, it's called the F22, it's less late, more capable and doesn't come with the bitter taste of political interference and ineptitude. Typhoon had it all, and then we let monkeys build it!
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BS
It's also unaffordable and, arguably in the foreseeable threat scenario, over-capable. Rolls Royce solutions neither needed nor necessary. Given changing roles/orbats and the forthcoming round of defence cuts, an unrealistic procurement option.
It's also unaffordable and, arguably in the foreseeable threat scenario, over-capable. Rolls Royce solutions neither needed nor necessary. Given changing roles/orbats and the forthcoming round of defence cuts, an unrealistic procurement option.
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I feel inclined to egree with Britney (any chance I can 'ave yer phone number, luv?) I can't understand why so many people would jump up and down with excitement when a new aeroplane beats an old one-that's the whole point of building the new one, innit?
As for the specific engagement itself - the source is, of course, not objective. Perhaps the Geoffhoons had already been shot by the Eagles prior to reacting. Perhaps the F-15's wing rocking was the standard 'terminate engagement' signal, having already claimed their kills. Were the Foons' RWRs working? Perhaps they'd been shot ages before they visually detected the 15s. Who knows. Who cares. I've tapped these boys many times. Sometimes they turn hard, sometimes they turn a bit, sometimes they waggle you off (wing-rock) and sometimes they completely ignore you because they are busy with other training objectives at the time. Finally, the USAF have some incredibly stringent rules about maximum manoeuvering at low level- the aircraft's potential would be severely and artificially limited. So R E L A X guys, Typhoon will demonstrate its superior manouverability (along with its other strengths) in good time.
As for the specific engagement itself - the source is, of course, not objective. Perhaps the Geoffhoons had already been shot by the Eagles prior to reacting. Perhaps the F-15's wing rocking was the standard 'terminate engagement' signal, having already claimed their kills. Were the Foons' RWRs working? Perhaps they'd been shot ages before they visually detected the 15s. Who knows. Who cares. I've tapped these boys many times. Sometimes they turn hard, sometimes they turn a bit, sometimes they waggle you off (wing-rock) and sometimes they completely ignore you because they are busy with other training objectives at the time. Finally, the USAF have some incredibly stringent rules about maximum manoeuvering at low level- the aircraft's potential would be severely and artificially limited. So R E L A X guys, Typhoon will demonstrate its superior manouverability (along with its other strengths) in good time.
AAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWW Nozzles!!
Bit of a morale boost, lots of positive waves, and you have to go and pee all over it....
Are you a senior officer by any chance
Bit of a morale boost, lots of positive waves, and you have to go and pee all over it....
Are you a senior officer by any chance
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Nozzles
Well said - wish I could still mix it with you young bloods (what am I saying - every day is now filled with nothing 'cept painting, up to the boozer to nag with kings 'n paupers, wine whenever, poping off to Bavaria occasionally for more wine etc etc).
But what of F22 dear chap?
Well said - wish I could still mix it with you young bloods (what am I saying - every day is now filled with nothing 'cept painting, up to the boozer to nag with kings 'n paupers, wine whenever, poping off to Bavaria occasionally for more wine etc etc).
But what of F22 dear chap?
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Jobza,
If I was a senior officer I'd be far to busy colluding with industry and spending the defence budget producing shiny Investors In People folders to talk to you!!!
Smarty,
Not being a habitual Janes reader I would hesitate to make a comparison between the two rides. However, I have a feeling in me water that the boys and girls who get to operate the 'foon will be kings of a sort, and will undoubtedly have a lorra, lorra fun
And if they occasionally get shot down by a F-22....well you canny win 'em all.
Bavaria eh? Prefer a '97 St Emillion myself.............
If I was a senior officer I'd be far to busy colluding with industry and spending the defence budget producing shiny Investors In People folders to talk to you!!!
Smarty,
Not being a habitual Janes reader I would hesitate to make a comparison between the two rides. However, I have a feeling in me water that the boys and girls who get to operate the 'foon will be kings of a sort, and will undoubtedly have a lorra, lorra fun
And if they occasionally get shot down by a F-22....well you canny win 'em all.
Bavaria eh? Prefer a '97 St Emillion myself.............
Nozzles,
Good one sport
Good one sport
OK!
Everyone's wrong.
The gun's back in, but at the moment it's funded installation and clearance only. They'll have the gun. The gun will be cleared. But there'll be no funding for in service support.
PS: The boxheads started gun and IRIS-T firing trials at Deci last week....
Everyone's wrong.
The gun's back in, but at the moment it's funded installation and clearance only. They'll have the gun. The gun will be cleared. But there'll be no funding for in service support.
PS: The boxheads started gun and IRIS-T firing trials at Deci last week....
