Harrier work for BAE
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You would have thought that given the capability the Jag now has after all the DERA/QinetiQ upgrades that the IPT would have followed the same route for the Harrier, or is that just too obvious, and cheap.
Chris Kebab,
The answer lies in your question!
Now that what was DERA is Qinetiq it would be impossible to do ANYTHING like the Jag upgrade in the same manner ever again.
Qinteyq are now a commercial outfit, ever wonderd why there are not loads of Typhoons racing round the skies of Boscombe Down?
The answer lies in your question!
Now that what was DERA is Qinetiq it would be impossible to do ANYTHING like the Jag upgrade in the same manner ever again.
Qinteyq are now a commercial outfit, ever wonderd why there are not loads of Typhoons racing round the skies of Boscombe Down?
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Are there loads of Typhoons racing around the skies anywhere!
You've got a point I guess but the I know the QinetiQ (the upper case second Q is very important apparently) avionic integration guys at Boscombe are still doing pretty neat Jag mods as well as all the OFPs.
I really cannot believe they could not do the job cheaper than Wasto, were they ever given the chance. Then again I suspect Warton would pull the old DA joker card from up their sleeve like they did to the Tornado IPT a few years back.
You read it here first - getting GR9 into service will be a complete goat!
You've got a point I guess but the I know the QinetiQ (the upper case second Q is very important apparently) avionic integration guys at Boscombe are still doing pretty neat Jag mods as well as all the OFPs.
I really cannot believe they could not do the job cheaper than Wasto, were they ever given the chance. Then again I suspect Warton would pull the old DA joker card from up their sleeve like they did to the Tornado IPT a few years back.
You read it here first - getting GR9 into service will be a complete goat!
Chris:
The Jag is a "mature airframe", the RAF can put what upgrades it likes in it without having to pay outrageous amounts to the design authority hence it became the perfect testbed for all things new and shiny. However your comments about it's capabilities are a bit confusing., What role would you have it do in a future war?
On the other hand the Harrier is not a mature airframe, BAe still have the design authority for it and so all upgrades must go through them, this is why BAe got the work and not some other group.
The Jag is a "mature airframe", the RAF can put what upgrades it likes in it without having to pay outrageous amounts to the design authority hence it became the perfect testbed for all things new and shiny. However your comments about it's capabilities are a bit confusing., What role would you have it do in a future war?
On the other hand the Harrier is not a mature airframe, BAe still have the design authority for it and so all upgrades must go through them, this is why BAe got the work and not some other group.
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Stuff - wasn’t intentionally making any comment one way or the other on the Jag role but nobody can argue it has some pretty neat toys on board.
Harrier not a mature airframe!? How does the original Harrier ISD stack up against the Jags? It’s OK – I know what your reply to that is going to be! But the current Jag is similarly pretty unrecognisable to the ones that arrived in (?)1976.
As I understand it BAES are still the DA for the Jag but have effectively given up. Thank god. I gather they are also about to throw the towel in with the F3.
It will be a goat, late and over budget (or reduced in capability) – watch and see! Smart procurement ‘tis but a joke.
Harrier not a mature airframe!? How does the original Harrier ISD stack up against the Jags? It’s OK – I know what your reply to that is going to be! But the current Jag is similarly pretty unrecognisable to the ones that arrived in (?)1976.
As I understand it BAES are still the DA for the Jag but have effectively given up. Thank god. I gather they are also about to throw the towel in with the F3.
It will be a goat, late and over budget (or reduced in capability) – watch and see! Smart procurement ‘tis but a joke.
As I had understood it the term "mature aircraft" has specific legal meaning and not just "ohh that's a bit old". Before an aircraft is termed mature the DA have to be consulted on every change and they can insist on trials to prove that your modification is not going to wreck their design. This adds a huge amount to the cost of any project.
I agree both aircraft are hardly new but one is termed mature and the other is not meaning there is a huge disparity in the costs associated with the upgrades.
I've been looking on the DLO site for the exact meaning of mature but I can't find it yet. Anyone else help out?
I agree both aircraft are hardly new but one is termed mature and the other is not meaning there is a huge disparity in the costs associated with the upgrades.
I've been looking on the DLO site for the exact meaning of mature but I can't find it yet. Anyone else help out?
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I'm not a Wyton guru but I don't think the term, with the legal standing that you suggest, exists.
Every military aircraft has a formal DA but how the company exploit that "ownership" boils down to the relationship between the relevant IPT and the DA. There is no point (such as your maturity) where the DA is suddenly excluded.
Every military aircraft has a formal DA but how the company exploit that "ownership" boils down to the relationship between the relevant IPT and the DA. There is no point (such as your maturity) where the DA is suddenly excluded.
Chris Kebab and Stuff,
Ive been away from all this for some time now, but if the GR3A is so rooty tooty and all singing and all dancing, why has it not been used "in anger" since becoming this new wonder beast?
With the stated intent being to concentrate on multi role platforms and their ability to allow op dets to be mounted with smaller overall numbers, why keep the Jag at all when you already have Tornado GR4, Harrier GR7/9 and Typhoon on the way?
QuinteyQ seem to be able to price themselves out of almost everything it seems, hence MAR flying on Typhoon being at Warton and F-35 going to be at Edwards. They also bid big time on the GR9, to no avail.
Ive been away from all this for some time now, but if the GR3A is so rooty tooty and all singing and all dancing, why has it not been used "in anger" since becoming this new wonder beast?
With the stated intent being to concentrate on multi role platforms and their ability to allow op dets to be mounted with smaller overall numbers, why keep the Jag at all when you already have Tornado GR4, Harrier GR7/9 and Typhoon on the way?
QuinteyQ seem to be able to price themselves out of almost everything it seems, hence MAR flying on Typhoon being at Warton and F-35 going to be at Edwards. They also bid big time on the GR9, to no avail.
The concept of 'maturity' is exactly as has been described. The Jag GR1B upgrade (which started the process) was possible only because the aircraft had been declared mature (which had to be agreed jointly by the RAF and the DA). Declaring and airframe mature has all sorts of repercussions, limiting the scope and extent of mods and spending, but allowing other organisations to undertake work on the aircraft.
The Jag experience came as a jolt to BAE, who have worked hard to close the loophole and to discredit the Jag upgrade - claiming that there had been a loss of configuration control and all sorts of other malarkey. With a more risk averse IPT leader, BAE were able to shoulder their way back onto the Jag upgrade for the Adour 106 re-engining.
Coincidentally, this has been the most expensive element in the upgrade and has been the first major element to fail to meet the required timescale, to fail to meet performance expectations, and to suffer major problems.
The Jag upgrade was a success not only because of DERA's input, but also because of the leadership offered by Al Lang, the hard work and clear vision of the then JUPO, and the participation of JAEDIT and various firms within industry. There can be no doubt that both GR4 and GR9 upgrades would have been quicker, better and cheaper had they followed the same route, but it is equally clear that BAE (already moving from being a manufacturer of airframes into product support to tide it over between programmes) would never have allowed it.
QinetiQ's failure to obtain some of the work mentioned has much more to do with BAE's determination to keep work in-house, its obstruction, and Government interference (in the name of smart procurement) than in QinetiQ's capabilities or costs.
Unfortunately, Smart procurement has come to mean shifting all risk to industry regardless of cost, rather than having the RAF act as an intelligent customer.
With the axe hanging over the Jaguar, Government and Air Staff unwillingness to allow the aircraft a higher profile by letting it go to war is perhaps understandable, even though the aircraft has rooting and tooting capabilities which might have been very useful, and even though it is the most cost-effective FJ platform for deployed ops, with significantly lower operating costs and lower manpower requirements.
The Jag experience came as a jolt to BAE, who have worked hard to close the loophole and to discredit the Jag upgrade - claiming that there had been a loss of configuration control and all sorts of other malarkey. With a more risk averse IPT leader, BAE were able to shoulder their way back onto the Jag upgrade for the Adour 106 re-engining.
Coincidentally, this has been the most expensive element in the upgrade and has been the first major element to fail to meet the required timescale, to fail to meet performance expectations, and to suffer major problems.
The Jag upgrade was a success not only because of DERA's input, but also because of the leadership offered by Al Lang, the hard work and clear vision of the then JUPO, and the participation of JAEDIT and various firms within industry. There can be no doubt that both GR4 and GR9 upgrades would have been quicker, better and cheaper had they followed the same route, but it is equally clear that BAE (already moving from being a manufacturer of airframes into product support to tide it over between programmes) would never have allowed it.
QinetiQ's failure to obtain some of the work mentioned has much more to do with BAE's determination to keep work in-house, its obstruction, and Government interference (in the name of smart procurement) than in QinetiQ's capabilities or costs.
Unfortunately, Smart procurement has come to mean shifting all risk to industry regardless of cost, rather than having the RAF act as an intelligent customer.
With the axe hanging over the Jaguar, Government and Air Staff unwillingness to allow the aircraft a higher profile by letting it go to war is perhaps understandable, even though the aircraft has rooting and tooting capabilities which might have been very useful, and even though it is the most cost-effective FJ platform for deployed ops, with significantly lower operating costs and lower manpower requirements.
