Future of the Air Engineer
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Future of the Air Engineer
As we all know the last Air Engineer course starts this month, with the school closing Jan 05. The Air Force did not meet it's target as to the number of trainees through the system last year, also it has dawned on our lord and masters that the new aircraft making the engineer redunderant will be late into service. To this end they have started to offer two year contract extensions to those people coming up to there twenty two year point. Personally I thing to take one of these extensions would to shoot ourselves in the foot, all it will do is allow them to defer the decision as to what to do with the branch for a further two years, rather than address the needs of the individual and the branch as a whole. Personally I am fed up of my future in the Airforce being so uncertain, one moment I am told that there is a future only for the next minute someone to say "Well we only want you for as long as it suits us". They should put together a proper package or tell the truth and say we only want you till two thousand and X.
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For whatever reason, regarding NCA issues in general, the RAF are reactive not predictive. Therefore you will not get the security you seek for nobody knows what the RAF actually need. IMHO the NCA review was significantly driven by giving Air Eng a second NCA career in the near future, ie re-role to ALM or AEOp.
I think your long term ambitions need to be along those lines or collecting a P45. Tough I know but thats progess for you.
You should become an ALM and tell your peers how much more than them you earn for the same rank and service
I think your long term ambitions need to be along those lines or collecting a P45. Tough I know but thats progess for you.
You should become an ALM and tell your peers how much more than them you earn for the same rank and service
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"Well we only want you for as long as it suits us"
Call me cynical but is that not all ways the case.
If you want to continue a flying career best not to cut off your nose to spite your face. Because outside the service there are limited prospects unless you consider a career change.
Train driver may be
Call me cynical but is that not all ways the case.
If you want to continue a flying career best not to cut off your nose to spite your face. Because outside the service there are limited prospects unless you consider a career change.
Train driver may be
Remuster
Eng Future said
With this sort of grammar, he will never make the grade of a low class penpusher, and aircrew think they are the best of the rest!
If this the standard of NCA aircrew that the RAF has, it is about time the whole of the NCA cadre was civilianised or offered to aircraft engineers to do. No wonder the mighty J and co have replaced the Air Eng by a bit of electrical string and a few transistors.
To this end they have started to offer two year contract extensions to those people coming up to there twenty two year point
If this the standard of NCA aircrew that the RAF has, it is about time the whole of the NCA cadre was civilianised or offered to aircraft engineers to do. No wonder the mighty J and co have replaced the Air Eng by a bit of electrical string and a few transistors.
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ZH 875,
It's lucky I'm an Engineer not a pen pusher, spelling is at the bottom of a very long list of thing I need to know. If you knew what you are talking about you would know that the majority of Air Engineers are remustered ground engineers, infact for the last 4 years it has been compulsory for all Air Engineer candidates to be ex ground engineers
Tiger_mate
The problem is now that the airforce banked on the majority of Air Engineers coming out of the service between 2008 and 2009, they did not want to retrain people who are approaching their (spelt properly just for you ZH875) 22 year point, but because it suits them they would like to extend us by 2 years only to cover their gap.
It's lucky I'm an Engineer not a pen pusher, spelling is at the bottom of a very long list of thing I need to know. If you knew what you are talking about you would know that the majority of Air Engineers are remustered ground engineers, infact for the last 4 years it has been compulsory for all Air Engineer candidates to be ex ground engineers
Tiger_mate
The problem is now that the airforce banked on the majority of Air Engineers coming out of the service between 2008 and 2009, they did not want to retrain people who are approaching their (spelt properly just for you ZH875) 22 year point, but because it suits them they would like to extend us by 2 years only to cover their gap.
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ZH do I detect a little chip on the shoulder? If you can deduce the quality of an individual from a few lines of English then you must be in high demand for your services.
The future of the Air Eng has been in doubt for several years and any one that has passed through training during this time must have realised that a long term career as an Air Engineer was unlikely. I believe the change to NCA was not done as T M suggests to give Air Eng’s a second career, but should make it easier for those that want to stay flying to do so. I also hope the ALM’s are paid the same as their other non commissioned colleagues before much longer.
It is up to individuals to decide if a contract extension is right for them but for any one under 40 I would suggest that they will be lucky to fly as an Air Eng to the age of 55. The decision on what to do with the branch has already been made, nobody gets an Eng brevet anymore. A decision on FSTA would help alleviate some of the uncertainty for people especially when a decision on the crewing is announced ie NCA or commisioned third person required. For now I will continue to do the job I love until the aircraft are no longer there. If I were 10 years younger I’d be working for my pilots licence.
The future of the Air Eng has been in doubt for several years and any one that has passed through training during this time must have realised that a long term career as an Air Engineer was unlikely. I believe the change to NCA was not done as T M suggests to give Air Eng’s a second career, but should make it easier for those that want to stay flying to do so. I also hope the ALM’s are paid the same as their other non commissioned colleagues before much longer.
It is up to individuals to decide if a contract extension is right for them but for any one under 40 I would suggest that they will be lucky to fly as an Air Eng to the age of 55. The decision on what to do with the branch has already been made, nobody gets an Eng brevet anymore. A decision on FSTA would help alleviate some of the uncertainty for people especially when a decision on the crewing is announced ie NCA or commisioned third person required. For now I will continue to do the job I love until the aircraft are no longer there. If I were 10 years younger I’d be working for my pilots licence.
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I have enjoyed my time as an air engineer but rapidly approaching 40 years old need better security for my family and me. A two year extension would really put me the wrong side of 40 for entry into a very competitive job market. Even if I was told that I could sign on but only remain as an air engineer as long as required and then retrain to a task the airforce require me to do. There are a lot of engineers who would happily consider ALM or AEOp given the choice between remaining aircrew or becoming a civvy.
Eng Future, I take it you were previously a rigger or other dirty TG1 trade then.
I suppose the excellent TG2 trade can spend hours not finding the fault because you mis-spelt the system that was u/s and sent them looking at a similarly named system.
Just as long as you know where all the pies are, we will all be OK.
Throttle Pusher, No Chip, just a penchant for winding up aircrew types.
Happy New Year and safe flying to all aircrew (and GE's)
I suppose the excellent TG2 trade can spend hours not finding the fault because you mis-spelt the system that was u/s and sent them looking at a similarly named system.
Just as long as you know where all the pies are, we will all be OK.
Throttle Pusher, No Chip, just a penchant for winding up aircrew types.
Happy New Year and safe flying to all aircrew (and GE's)
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The whole world is an uncertain place at the mo`. 
The waters are muddied by the impending introduction of FSTA, A400, MR4 and NCA PAS all of which are a right old laugh and cause endless hours of merriment down the pub . To think for one minute(make that one second) that any assurance over the long (medium-short!!) term future of a trade that has had an air of uncertainty for the past decade, is plain daft.
Any fule kno that there is an impending crisis looming regarding "bums on seats" once you add to the mix the further unclear future of C130K. The village barber and Sqn cleaner look with puzzlement at the planning board,then gaze vacantly around the section!!
Allegedly there will be clear guidance given in the early part of this year(got to go -a pig has just crashed into my roof) as the very people giving that guidance have carreers and CV`s to protect.
The fudge over WSop ,retraining and carreer changes could possibly be accountant driven to avoid paying redundancy to keep Chief Beancounter happy.
If you need reassurance then speak to your desk man - he/she/it will always tell it straight. Oh and add to the plot that the blue blooded Air Eng`s will be around for a long time too - as they are even more expensive than the pondlife and BZN stores has a stock of carpet slippers till well into the next decade.
The futures bright the futures WSop+a kilt
HAPPY NEW YEAR
The waters are muddied by the impending introduction of FSTA, A400, MR4 and NCA PAS all of which are a right old laugh and cause endless hours of merriment down the pub . To think for one minute(make that one second) that any assurance over the long (medium-short!!) term future of a trade that has had an air of uncertainty for the past decade, is plain daft.
Any fule kno that there is an impending crisis looming regarding "bums on seats" once you add to the mix the further unclear future of C130K. The village barber and Sqn cleaner look with puzzlement at the planning board,then gaze vacantly around the section!!
Allegedly there will be clear guidance given in the early part of this year(got to go -a pig has just crashed into my roof) as the very people giving that guidance have carreers and CV`s to protect.
The fudge over WSop ,retraining and carreer changes could possibly be accountant driven to avoid paying redundancy to keep Chief Beancounter happy.
If you need reassurance then speak to your desk man - he/she/it will always tell it straight. Oh and add to the plot that the blue blooded Air Eng`s will be around for a long time too - as they are even more expensive than the pondlife and BZN stores has a stock of carpet slippers till well into the next decade.
The futures bright
the futures WSop+a kiltHAPPY NEW YEAR
Good luck, Eng Future.
It would seem to me that it will be down to the FE's 'union' to delay any clear decision of accepting the extra 2 years until they've been told what the associated financial retention incentive will be.
Regarding equality of pay for FEs and ALMs, would those in favour please describe in simple, non-antognistic terms how they would explain to a faceless bean counter why the RAF should pay them the same when no airline ever pays its cabin staff more than its flight crew? Because that's the sort of flawed logic you might be up against...... " 'cos we're warry rufty-tufties" ain't going to cut the mustard, I would venture.
It would seem to me that it will be down to the FE's 'union' to delay any clear decision of accepting the extra 2 years until they've been told what the associated financial retention incentive will be.
Regarding equality of pay for FEs and ALMs, would those in favour please describe in simple, non-antognistic terms how they would explain to a faceless bean counter why the RAF should pay them the same when no airline ever pays its cabin staff more than its flight crew? Because that's the sort of flawed logic you might be up against...... " 'cos we're warry rufty-tufties" ain't going to cut the mustard, I would venture.
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Getting a bit off topic but ref your last comments Beags. I know your view of ALM's has been tainted by your years on the mighty 10 and those of them that speak with a lisp.
The job the rotary guys do in my view more than justifies a salary in line with that of an air engineer and especially an AEop. It will have to be addressed with the introduction of NCA. Don’t belittle the rotary and low level tac guys because the job on the 10 is not that demanding. Nobody ever suggested you got paid less than an F3 mate because you flew multi's.
The job the rotary guys do in my view more than justifies a salary in line with that of an air engineer and especially an AEop. It will have to be addressed with the introduction of NCA. Don’t belittle the rotary and low level tac guys because the job on the 10 is not that demanding. Nobody ever suggested you got paid less than an F3 mate because you flew multi's.
You don't need to convince me, I do appreciate the value of ALMs in tactical aircraft; I have not belittled them in any way in my post.
As I said, it's the beancounters who'll need convincing - so imagine that you're having to explain why to them, not me!
As I said, it's the beancounters who'll need convincing - so imagine that you're having to explain why to them, not me!
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Eng Future
"infact for the last 4 years it has been compulsory for all Air Engineer candidates to be ex ground engineers"
I think you will find that the decision to only recruit Air Engineers from within the service had more to do with the morality of recruiting DEs into a trade with no future. It is more acceptable to train Serving Airmen and give them the benefit of increased rank/pay/status/responsibility and a 22 year engagement.
Yes, I am a DE Air Eng who did not realise the grim future of the branch until I got to my first Sqn 13 years ago. I have a feeling there will be a lot of us around for another 13 years but 2 year extensions is probably not the way ahead.
To clarify a few other points the last Air Eng intake as we know it starts ITC on Sunday and will graduate in Mar 05. There has been talk of some sort of piss up to mark the event but nothing firm yet.
"infact for the last 4 years it has been compulsory for all Air Engineer candidates to be ex ground engineers"
I think you will find that the decision to only recruit Air Engineers from within the service had more to do with the morality of recruiting DEs into a trade with no future. It is more acceptable to train Serving Airmen and give them the benefit of increased rank/pay/status/responsibility and a 22 year engagement.
Yes, I am a DE Air Eng who did not realise the grim future of the branch until I got to my first Sqn 13 years ago. I have a feeling there will be a lot of us around for another 13 years but 2 year extensions is probably not the way ahead.
To clarify a few other points the last Air Eng intake as we know it starts ITC on Sunday and will graduate in Mar 05. There has been talk of some sort of piss up to mark the event but nothing firm yet.
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Getting back to the point ! (scroll to top of page to get the topic!)
The 2yr extension offer is plainly derisory and another fudge to cover a larger problem.
Those recent recruits to the branch should consider their future employment options very carefully.
Never mind about crewroom gossip - take balanced advice and do whats right for you.
We should start yet another thread about how poorly off the ALM`s are and how the rotary hero`s deserve more money, but then again ....dont we all!!
Tell it to the Judge not me, as I know you have been `had over`,but then again....have'nt we all !!
Leave spanner monkeys to name calling, and movers to baiting - breathe deeply and rise above it. Then prepare for a `kin huge bat
The 2yr extension offer is plainly derisory and another fudge to cover a larger problem.
Those recent recruits to the branch should consider their future employment options very carefully.
Never mind about crewroom gossip - take balanced advice and do whats right for you.
We should start yet another thread about how poorly off the ALM`s are and how the rotary hero`s deserve more money, but then again ....dont we all!!
Tell it to the Judge not me, as I know you have been `had over`,but then again....have'nt we all !!
Leave spanner monkeys to name calling, and movers to baiting - breathe deeply and rise above it. Then prepare for a `kin huge bat
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Beags: Despite your subsequent comment, your initial ALM comments sounded pretty insulting to me.
Nevertheless, the argument is very straightforward: For some time now I have not been an ALM but an WSOp, and my peer WSOp are paid more despite the same time served and rank. That is unfair, and will probably get the RAF a Court Case one day.
I am not a Union man myself, but there is not a Union on the planet that would accept the present injustice.
......and the reasoning of "Too dificult to upgrade the PMA computer" beggars belief.
Nearly every rotary Sqn is undermanned with ALM. If the Flt Eng bretheren fancy a job, get your bids in. The present experience dilution rate is critical, and a group of qualified aircrew with airmanship would be a breath of fresh air.
Oh and Beags, I have FRCs in my pocket. The ALM with whome you tar us all do not. (I understand), I even get to turn switches on and off now and again, and navigate; such fun.
Nevertheless, the argument is very straightforward: For some time now I have not been an ALM but an WSOp, and my peer WSOp are paid more despite the same time served and rank. That is unfair, and will probably get the RAF a Court Case one day.
I am not a Union man myself, but there is not a Union on the planet that would accept the present injustice.
......and the reasoning of "Too dificult to upgrade the PMA computer" beggars belief.
Nearly every rotary Sqn is undermanned with ALM. If the Flt Eng bretheren fancy a job, get your bids in. The present experience dilution rate is critical, and a group of qualified aircrew with airmanship would be a breath of fresh air.
Oh and Beags, I have FRCs in my pocket. The ALM with whome you tar us all do not. (I understand), I even get to turn switches on and off now and again, and navigate; such fun.
Inter Arma Enim Silentius Lex Legis
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Happy New Year One and All!!
Ahh it's so nice to see that in 2004 the bickering and jealousy is still present in equal amounts, with a touch of arrogance to boot!!
ZH you are obviously commissioned !! Get a life M8!!
Air Eng's. Please wake up and smell the coffee, especially the NCA Eng's. You have NO future at all!! Eventually the last 30 odd Air Eng's will all be commissioned and at Waddo, around 2010/2012
If and I feel it is a big if, NCA PAS comes in it will not IMHO include Air Eng's. PMA are already on record as stating that any possible redundancy terms for Air Engs will NOT be as favourable as those given in the past. Those who opt for ALM will end up Rotary with nil seniority!!
There are no new jobs appearing in Civvie Street and no chance of a future in the RAF. I advise you to begin retraining for something else before it is too late.
Betty Boo: The whole world is an uncertain place at the mo!
Really!!! Only if you are unfortunate enough to be in the military matey!! I am in an industry that is having £Billions chucked at it and most of it isn't taxpayers money!!
I also strongly disagree that your deskman will tell it to you straight! They have one brief only - fill the gaps, offer non-existent carrots. Just like their senior officers above them, they will lie to you if they have to and any one who thinks otherwise is naive. Just look at the man in charge of the MOD!!
If you stay in and get rolled over, you have to accept that as part of your terms of service. You have no rights at all, you know it and unfortunately they know it!! They are actively relying on the fact that the pull for Air Eng's in Civvie Street is non-existent. But I am finding that in a non-aviation industry my ex Air Eng skills are in great demand and the financial incentives are there to be had!!
As Capt Black Adder once said before blowing his whistle: -
"Good luck everybody"
Ahh it's so nice to see that in 2004 the bickering and jealousy is still present in equal amounts, with a touch of arrogance to boot!!
ZH you are obviously commissioned !! Get a life M8!!
Air Eng's. Please wake up and smell the coffee, especially the NCA Eng's. You have NO future at all!! Eventually the last 30 odd Air Eng's will all be commissioned and at Waddo, around 2010/2012
If and I feel it is a big if, NCA PAS comes in it will not IMHO include Air Eng's. PMA are already on record as stating that any possible redundancy terms for Air Engs will NOT be as favourable as those given in the past. Those who opt for ALM will end up Rotary with nil seniority!!
There are no new jobs appearing in Civvie Street and no chance of a future in the RAF. I advise you to begin retraining for something else before it is too late.
Betty Boo: The whole world is an uncertain place at the mo!
Really!!! Only if you are unfortunate enough to be in the military matey!! I am in an industry that is having £Billions chucked at it and most of it isn't taxpayers money!!
I also strongly disagree that your deskman will tell it to you straight! They have one brief only - fill the gaps, offer non-existent carrots. Just like their senior officers above them, they will lie to you if they have to and any one who thinks otherwise is naive. Just look at the man in charge of the MOD!!
If you stay in and get rolled over, you have to accept that as part of your terms of service. You have no rights at all, you know it and unfortunately they know it!! They are actively relying on the fact that the pull for Air Eng's in Civvie Street is non-existent. But I am finding that in a non-aviation industry my ex Air Eng skills are in great demand and the financial incentives are there to be had!!
As Capt Black Adder once said before blowing his whistle: -
"Good luck everybody"
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Oooh deary me,from one of our own too!There are lots of good courses you can go on both in and out of the military to help with anger management,please take a moment and consider one - you could always use an assumed name
Bully for you that your industry is having money spent on it, so are BWoS,Crockheed Martin,Parmalat et al........whatever
The whole world is uncertain unless you are watching different news to me.....is BA223 on or off again.....is Hutton likely to affect the price of chips.......are coppers getting shot ???
For those that want to stay there will be employment somewhere,albeit with the rotary hero`s or the monkeys in Lincolnshire although how they are all getting Commissioned is a little unclear
Have a nice life,get back on message,quit whingeing,take off your blinkers,organise a group hug, remember the good old days when you had to eat s*1t and calm down a little (think about that course I mentioned)
Back to the topic,times are uncertain for all of us and even moreso Air Eng`s
Oh while I remember the comment about my desk man was irony(probably too well disguised for your angry retort)
lazy fairweather PPRuNer
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So long and thanks for all the fish.
From the tone of everyones post here I guess no-one is really expecting a fair, well thought out and cleverly constructed solution to what could be a very serious manning crisis.
Nope, what you're gonna get is another expensive thinktank/review team/feasability analisys/manpower study type thing or some other smoke screen process designed as an emollient for an under valued work force. Which is really just another tool for ensuring people get their staff tour tick before promotion (can't even begin to think where I could possibley have gotten that idea).
Eng Future, I never got offered an extens........... oh yeah, I forgot, you have to be a "union" member for that.
Anyway, its been a blast, take care guys.
Nope, what you're gonna get is another expensive thinktank/review team/feasability analisys/manpower study type thing or some other smoke screen process designed as an emollient for an under valued work force. Which is really just another tool for ensuring people get their staff tour tick before promotion (can't even begin to think where I could possibley have gotten that idea).
Eng Future, I never got offered an extens........... oh yeah, I forgot, you have to be a "union" member for that.
Anyway, its been a blast, take care guys.