Buccaneer Low level
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I remember seeing footage of Buccs flying through simulated Soviet AAA + SAM defences on a RED FLAG. The commentary was provided by US weapons operators cursing the RAF pilots for flying so low and fast.
I have looked all over the web but can't find any of this film - is it on a commercially available video somewhere? Or does someone have a copy sitting at the back of their garage somewhere?
I have looked all over the web but can't find any of this film - is it on a commercially available video somewhere? Or does someone have a copy sitting at the back of their garage somewhere?
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The Bucc used to upset my old man no end. After yet another 20 hr shift in the north sea on the fishing boat, tired, wet, hungry, up they would sneak and scare the hell out of them all. Ha ha I love it.
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Has anybody thought as to why the Vulcan thread may be lo--------nger than this one? Might it be something to do with more than twice the crew strength, with similar payload, but in less demanding conditions - any wonder they had time to record their detailed memoirs ------
LBTP&R
LBTP&R
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Simple really Smartman,the Vulcan lot could always talk a good war,certainly eat for the country,tried to drink for it as well,but never had to really prove themselves.They did have a go in the Falklands of course (denied to the Buccs as we no longer had a real Carrier) but the rest was just hot, stuffy air. Beags has been in both places perhaps he can explain.
Happy New Year.
Happy New Year.
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Oooooh! Catty! Most of the Vulcan guys I knew had a helluva lot of time and respect for the Bucc guys. I mean, who in their right mind would tear around at 50 feet at warp factor oh sh*t and enjoy themselves??!!
Seriously, both types had different jobs to do with radically different bits of kit in totally different environments. Both did a fab job; banter was a great factor in the mutual respect stakes...
Seriously, both types had different jobs to do with radically different bits of kit in totally different environments. Both did a fab job; banter was a great factor in the mutual respect stakes...
I'm not really in much of a position to compare operating the Bucc with the Tin triangle as I didn't make it through the exceptionally unpleasant 237 OCU. When I arrived at Scampton I kept thinking of those 'hard man, soft man' interviews - everyone was so amenable and helpful that I kept waiting for the ba$tard to come out of his box....
But no. Life on the V-bumbler in 1977-80 was truly excellent; we had a far, far better standard of life than they had in the banana jet world! This was confirmed to me by ex-Vulcan mates who ended up on the Tornado - and really wished they hadn't bothered!
But no. Life on the V-bumbler in 1977-80 was truly excellent; we had a far, far better standard of life than they had in the banana jet world! This was confirmed to me by ex-Vulcan mates who ended up on the Tornado - and really wished they hadn't bothered!
Nurse - given weather and a sea state which would allow unhindered launch and recovery of naval Buccaneers and F4s, there's no doubt that Stanley aerodrome would soon have been put out of action; the Mirages and Daggers would have stood little chance against front hemisphere AIM7s launched by naval F4s. There would have been no real need for the Black Bucks - and Gannets would have provided organic fleet AEW.
But we only had our little Harrier carriers which lacked significant punch and whose SHARs were predominantly used as 'eyeball' fighters which only succeeded due to AIM9L and aggressive tactical flying.
But we only had our little Harrier carriers which lacked significant punch and whose SHARs were predominantly used as 'eyeball' fighters which only succeeded due to AIM9L and aggressive tactical flying.
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BEagle
'only succeeded due to ---'
You go to war with what you've got - and if luck,
a good weapon and personal skill achieves success, why the need to add such a rider. Sure, a BVR capability would've been nice; but they didn't have one ----------
'only succeeded due to ---'
You go to war with what you've got - and if luck,
a good weapon and personal skill achieves success, why the need to add such a rider. Sure, a BVR capability would've been nice; but they didn't have one ----------
Because the RN didn't have a true all-aspect front hemisphere radar missile such as Sparrow or Skyflash - which they would have had if the 'real' carriers with the naval F4 had been available.
SHAR wasn't a true alternative, the fact that it did so well in the Malvinas was down to some very good short range combat kills with the new AIM 9L. Was it ever fired radar-slaved in the front hemisphere? Or just in beam and stern shots. 2 risks there - either the bad guys get very close to the Task Force or you have a very short time on a long range CAP in a single engined jet over the balmy South Atlantic in the austral winter. Nice...
Whereas the F4, not perhaps as agile as the SHAR, had a vastly better MCS for fleet defence. Plus it could carry 8 missiles...and it had 2 crew...and 2 engines!
SHAR wasn't a true alternative, the fact that it did so well in the Malvinas was down to some very good short range combat kills with the new AIM 9L. Was it ever fired radar-slaved in the front hemisphere? Or just in beam and stern shots. 2 risks there - either the bad guys get very close to the Task Force or you have a very short time on a long range CAP in a single engined jet over the balmy South Atlantic in the austral winter. Nice...
Whereas the F4, not perhaps as agile as the SHAR, had a vastly better MCS for fleet defence. Plus it could carry 8 missiles...and it had 2 crew...and 2 engines!
RTFQ!
Yes to Nurse, if we'd still had real carriers there wouldn't have been any need for Black Buck missions - and Bucc/conventional carrier would have done a good job.
Protected by organic air assets - F4 and Gannet - which would have been able to engage the opposition at rather greater ranges than did the SHAR.
Yes to Nurse, if we'd still had real carriers there wouldn't have been any need for Black Buck missions - and Bucc/conventional carrier would have done a good job.
Protected by organic air assets - F4 and Gannet - which would have been able to engage the opposition at rather greater ranges than did the SHAR.
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Plus the Phantoms had dedicated buddy AAR Buccs for extended CAP/range and the Gannets could have provided a long range SAR sentry if, God forbid we lost one.
Even with the F/A 2 and later the JSF, short ranged single engine over water ops are still a risky business and a modern Falklands air war would still be reliant on superior training and "making do"
Sorry, are we still talking about the wonderful Buccaneer here??
Even with the F/A 2 and later the JSF, short ranged single engine over water ops are still a risky business and a modern Falklands air war would still be reliant on superior training and "making do"
Sorry, are we still talking about the wonderful Buccaneer here??
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It's entirely posssible that if we had still had "real" carriers, the Junta would not have invaded the dump in the first place. (Stanby for Broadcast from WEBF).
NB According to Beeb R4 over the weekend, the Argie Govt are talking about Sovereignty of the Malvinas again. Maybe they assume we're busy eleswhere?
NB According to Beeb R4 over the weekend, the Argie Govt are talking about Sovereignty of the Malvinas again. Maybe they assume we're busy eleswhere?
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Would they be talking about sovereignty around about the same time as we are talking about defence cuts?? Umm.... does history ever repeat itself? How would Trust Me Tone get himself out of that one?? (I'm sure he would somehow...)
Thread Starter
During the Falklands the FRS 1's operated in weather so foul that F4's, Buccs and Gannets would never have been able to take off let alone land again.
Of course when the CTOL mob would have been available they would have weilded a bigger stick than the Harriers.
Of course when the CTOL mob would have been available they would have weilded a bigger stick than the Harriers.
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There's a shed load of bucc stories waiting to be told and several readers and contributors could add to this "I (should have)learned about flying from this" previously untold story.
208Sqn, pre the first Red Flag,culminated their training at Goose Bay with a firm dedication to fly fast and low.The plan was simple and required a 4 ship to fly a very wide battle, often as 2 pairs and even 4 singletons but to make a simulated attack at 3 or 4 targets at pre-determined times.Given the avionic fit at the time-none-it meant that the fablon covered,chinagraphed enhanced map,and the stop watch was the only help the nav had,but we were very cocky and confident. So, when Ramjet and I"lost" the others there was no panic and we flew the pre planned route listening out as usual and were surprised to hear the other three doing a "fly past" at one of the many strips in the Tundra."Can we do that and make the next target" asked Ramjet and of course we could I assured him.We called for our flypast, were approved and did the normal dust stirring bucc thing,high pull up, wing over and rush back to earth for even better reverse fly past. As we descended,I called the High Pylon and it was confirmed visual....as we got even closer I called it again- and again it was called visual(plus "don't panic!").Stiff upper lip prevented me from saying J
as the starboard wing all but grazed the very solid pylon and we completed what the amazed Canadians called the most exciting fly past ever!. As we pulled away to join our mates for the final co-ordinated attack,feeling very smug,I happened to mention that we might need a touch of paint on our starboard wing and was met by silence.Very slowly Ramjet said "you mean port wing don't you" followed by "It was well clear,in fact I slid a little to the right just to make sure"
Great thing that offset nav seat.
So, we both saw it but neither of us saw them. We survived and can tell the tale. Great fun, great days but always something to learn.
Keep smiling:
208Sqn, pre the first Red Flag,culminated their training at Goose Bay with a firm dedication to fly fast and low.The plan was simple and required a 4 ship to fly a very wide battle, often as 2 pairs and even 4 singletons but to make a simulated attack at 3 or 4 targets at pre-determined times.Given the avionic fit at the time-none-it meant that the fablon covered,chinagraphed enhanced map,and the stop watch was the only help the nav had,but we were very cocky and confident. So, when Ramjet and I"lost" the others there was no panic and we flew the pre planned route listening out as usual and were surprised to hear the other three doing a "fly past" at one of the many strips in the Tundra."Can we do that and make the next target" asked Ramjet and of course we could I assured him.We called for our flypast, were approved and did the normal dust stirring bucc thing,high pull up, wing over and rush back to earth for even better reverse fly past. As we descended,I called the High Pylon and it was confirmed visual....as we got even closer I called it again- and again it was called visual(plus "don't panic!").Stiff upper lip prevented me from saying J
as the starboard wing all but grazed the very solid pylon and we completed what the amazed Canadians called the most exciting fly past ever!. As we pulled away to join our mates for the final co-ordinated attack,feeling very smug,I happened to mention that we might need a touch of paint on our starboard wing and was met by silence.Very slowly Ramjet said "you mean port wing don't you" followed by "It was well clear,in fact I slid a little to the right just to make sure"Great thing that offset nav seat.
So, we both saw it but neither of us saw them. We survived and can tell the tale. Great fun, great days but always something to learn.
Keep smiling: