Defence: Public ignorance, the media, and cutbacks
Quote: "Williamson losing fight with Treasury for rise in defence spending"
Quite agree ORAC. TBH, I feel that the UK should drop the expeditionary warfare carrier lark and instead, concentrate on the important defence capabilities with strength in some depth. There is no problem with having supporting capabilities for the USA but, the concept that the UK can project it's own effective carrier force is misguided with our limited budget.
OAP
Quite agree ORAC. TBH, I feel that the UK should drop the expeditionary warfare carrier lark and instead, concentrate on the important defence capabilities with strength in some depth. There is no problem with having supporting capabilities for the USA but, the concept that the UK can project it's own effective carrier force is misguided with our limited budget.
OAP
And 10 Downing Street immediately commented that ..."no she didn't say that".
OAP,
If the UK were to concentrate upon what you propose then we would effectively become another Ireland armed forces wise, with all of our resources devoted to the services who really effect and counter the only proper threat to the UK, that being from the actions of terrorist groups associated with extremism and lunatic individuals. As to the UK not having the budget to project it's own effective force, why not with the world's 5th largest defence budget and the largest in Europe stemming from the 5th largest economy in the world?
But don't worry, if you voted for Brexit then you are assisting in changing that!
If the UK were to concentrate upon what you propose then we would effectively become another Ireland armed forces wise, with all of our resources devoted to the services who really effect and counter the only proper threat to the UK, that being from the actions of terrorist groups associated with extremism and lunatic individuals. As to the UK not having the budget to project it's own effective force, why not with the world's 5th largest defence budget and the largest in Europe stemming from the 5th largest economy in the world?
But don't worry, if you voted for Brexit then you are assisting in changing that!
OAP
I don't own this space under my name. I should have leased it while I still could
I understood her to mean what constitutes 1st tier with a sub-text of either 'are we doing too much' or 'are we in danger of not doing enough '? I n other words the media spin was different intended.
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OAP,
If the UK were to concentrate upon what you propose then we would effectively become another Ireland armed forces wise, with all of our resources devoted to the services who really effect and counter the only proper threat to the UK, that being from the actions of terrorist groups associated with extremism and lunatic individuals. As to the UK not having the budget to project it's own effective force, why not with the world's 5th largest defence budget and the largest in Europe stemming from the 5th largest economy in the world?
But don't worry, if you voted for Brexit then you are assisting in changing that!
If the UK were to concentrate upon what you propose then we would effectively become another Ireland armed forces wise, with all of our resources devoted to the services who really effect and counter the only proper threat to the UK, that being from the actions of terrorist groups associated with extremism and lunatic individuals. As to the UK not having the budget to project it's own effective force, why not with the world's 5th largest defence budget and the largest in Europe stemming from the 5th largest economy in the world?
But don't worry, if you voted for Brexit then you are assisting in changing that!
We have to sort out country first, and that doesn't mean being a convienent poodle.
OAP,
If the UK were to concentrate upon what you propose then we would effectively become another Ireland armed forces wise, with all of our resources devoted to the services who really effect and counter the only proper threat to the UK, that being from the actions of terrorist groups associated with extremism and lunatic individuals. As to the UK not having the budget to project it's own effective force, why not with the world's 5th largest defence budget and the largest in Europe stemming from the 5th largest economy in the world?
But don't worry, if you voted for Brexit then you are assisting in changing that!
If the UK were to concentrate upon what you propose then we would effectively become another Ireland armed forces wise, with all of our resources devoted to the services who really effect and counter the only proper threat to the UK, that being from the actions of terrorist groups associated with extremism and lunatic individuals. As to the UK not having the budget to project it's own effective force, why not with the world's 5th largest defence budget and the largest in Europe stemming from the 5th largest economy in the world?
But don't worry, if you voted for Brexit then you are assisting in changing that!
OAP
Well this could get interesting if true!
Give me £20billion or I'll bring you down: Defence Secretary?s astonishing threat to PM | Daily Mail Online
Give me £20billion or I'll bring you down: Defence Secretary?s astonishing threat to PM | Daily Mail Online
Give me £20billion or I'll bring you down: Defence Secretary’s astonishing threat to Theresa May in bitter row over military cuts
- Formidable array of political and military figures are lining up behind Gavin Williamson in his power struggle with No 10
- He has warned the PM that if she did not commit an extra £20 billion to the Ministry of Defence then Tory MPs would vote down the next Budget
- According to one source, Mr Williamson promised to ‘crush’ the Treasury over the issue
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what is clear is that almost every Tory minister can "threaten" the PM - and leak it............... Without a majority and with absolutely no idea of what she wants to do she is open to constant pressure
I have to say it's getting me down - god alone knows what it's doing to her
I have to say it's getting me down - god alone knows what it's doing to her
I don't doubt for a minute that Williamson would have referenced the strength of backbench feeling on the issue and the extent of Tory backbench support for more defence spending - why wouldn't he. Beyond that, well yes it is the Daily Mail and they have papers to sell and they've done a good job of embroidering it into a much more inflammatory headline.
The "Williamson vs Hammond" angle being pushed by the papers is unhelpful though, as a good outcome for defence would be portrayed as a Hammond defeat. And Williamson presumably did himself and the whole thing no favours by roundly pissing off the Chancellor early on, by embarrassing him over the payment for MoD flights issue, just when he needed his goodwill.
We can only hope that those taking the decisions can rise above it all, but I'm not holding my breath.
The "Williamson vs Hammond" angle being pushed by the papers is unhelpful though, as a good outcome for defence would be portrayed as a Hammond defeat. And Williamson presumably did himself and the whole thing no favours by roundly pissing off the Chancellor early on, by embarrassing him over the payment for MoD flights issue, just when he needed his goodwill.
We can only hope that those taking the decisions can rise above it all, but I'm not holding my breath.
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Sounds more like williamson knows what the result would be and is choosing to damage apotential competitor for when the wheels come off. Its a win win for him whatever decision is made.
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No longer a Top Tier Power
Something we haven't been for a while, its just taken them this long to waken up to the fact.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...wer/ar-AAz8giG
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknew...wer/ar-AAz8giG
Or, as Sir Max Hastings writes in The Times today - We need to tell the truth about defence.
Having 'liberated' Port Stanley single-handed, he has conveniently forgotten which service delivered him to the Falklands and fought and died to protect him en route. Yet strangely, he sees little or no role for maritime capability, aircraft carriers, air superiority, CASD or much else the RN (or the RAF for that matter) has to offer. His eyes are firmly fixed on 'boots on the ground' to the exclusion of all else required to prepare the ground for them, deliver them, protect them, sustain them in theatre and provide them with vital intelligence.
This is the same gung-ho Max Hastings who, at his typically blinkered, fiercely pro-Army anti-everything else worst, labelled the Royal Navy as cowardly for not starting a shooting match with Somali pirates holding hostages at gunpoint on board a yacht bobbing about on the ocean. He even got that wrong because it was a Royal Fleet Auxiliary tanker on the scene, not a warship.
OAP
Last edited by Onceapilot; 1st Jul 2018 at 07:19.
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The Sunday Times 7 December 2003:
Hoon Poised for £2bn Cut in Forces
A number of senior officers, however, see the white paper as a chance to break out of the service’s historic regimental structure.
“Anybody who argues on emotional grounds for cap badges and so on doesn’t understand the needs of the army today,” a senior officer told a private Whitehall audience last week.
The army wants to move from a structure based on battalions of about 600 men to an emphasis on company-sized sub-units of about 120 men that can be more easily deployed.
I hope that bit is true and that someone has seen sense at last. The regimental system belongs in a museum, not in a modern army.
Hoon Poised for £2bn Cut in Forces
A number of senior officers, however, see the white paper as a chance to break out of the service’s historic regimental structure.
“Anybody who argues on emotional grounds for cap badges and so on doesn’t understand the needs of the army today,” a senior officer told a private Whitehall audience last week.
The army wants to move from a structure based on battalions of about 600 men to an emphasis on company-sized sub-units of about 120 men that can be more easily deployed.
I hope that bit is true and that someone has seen sense at last. The regimental system belongs in a museum, not in a modern army.
Are you going to get rid of all historical regimental and squadron nameplates and colours?
It would be sad to get rid of the Foot Guards Regiments or 617 Sqn and replace them with a number that has no history or tradition.
I appreciate the RAF is still young, but I believe being in a unit with a proud history and tradition is good for unit cohesion and ethos. It gives the troops a passion. I remember my Grandfather with a Scottish background saying he wanted to be in the Black Watch and not any other regiment.
I also believe that keeping historical units and traditions is respecting what those units went through and achieved. It teaches the youngsters, for example Army Barracks named after Napoleonic or Crimean battles, I've stayed in RAF accommodation named after RAF Victoria Cross recipients.
That Senior Officer appears to criticise "emotional attachment to cap badges" as a way to justify cutbacks and reductions in manpower.
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Well the Army only had numbered regiments to 1881 - then they changed to the County names so it isn't the end of the world - remember we ruled the world then.........................
Squadrons have only ever had numbers - the fame of any particular one has no relation to it's number TBH
When a lot of the Scots regiments have serious problems in recruiting and have to be filled up with Commonwealth citizens suggests the old County model is heading for the scrap heap anyway
Squadrons have only ever had numbers - the fame of any particular one has no relation to it's number TBH
When a lot of the Scots regiments have serious problems in recruiting and have to be filled up with Commonwealth citizens suggests the old County model is heading for the scrap heap anyway