Greatest British (post WW2) miltary pilot
Suspicion breeds confidence
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Greatest British (post WW2) miltary pilot
Jump in and have your choice:
My nomination: Lt Cdr "Sharkey" Ward RN.
CO of 801 NAS in the Falklands campaign and one of the original converts to the Sea Harrier. Ward fully understood the capabilities of this unique aircraft. With just 8 a/c originally 801 got the best of its equipment and people through Ward's leadership and insight. 801 pilots became skilled and day and night sorties in a single seat a/c - no easy task. Wards low level tactics proved a great deterrent to the Argentine airforce, thus proving to the Argentines that its successes against F5s and F15s in exercises was no fluke but a capability to be reckoned with.
My nomination: Lt Cdr "Sharkey" Ward RN.
CO of 801 NAS in the Falklands campaign and one of the original converts to the Sea Harrier. Ward fully understood the capabilities of this unique aircraft. With just 8 a/c originally 801 got the best of its equipment and people through Ward's leadership and insight. 801 pilots became skilled and day and night sorties in a single seat a/c - no easy task. Wards low level tactics proved a great deterrent to the Argentine airforce, thus proving to the Argentines that its successes against F5s and F15s in exercises was no fluke but a capability to be reckoned with.
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Is this the greatest pilot who got in the news or does it include the many that no one has ever heard of who did the same sort of thing as Sharkey but no-one wrote about it as there wasn't a war on.
Red Dog?
BJ?
Big Bob I?
Bill Beaumont?
"Pink Spitfire" pilot (sorry - can't remeber this jag mates' name)
Just asking?
Red Dog?
BJ?
Big Bob I?
Bill Beaumont?
"Pink Spitfire" pilot (sorry - can't remeber this jag mates' name)
Just asking?
Not Ward.
Bill Beaumont, I would agree.
But the truly great don't shout about it, write books about it or get themselves in the newspapers all the time...
Bill Beaumont, I would agree.
But the truly great don't shout about it, write books about it or get themselves in the newspapers all the time...
How about Captain Eric "Winkle" Brown RN. Retired as the RN's chief test pilot circa 1970.
Still the holder of the world record for the number of carrier landings, first landing AND take-off of a jet from a carrier and most aircraft types flown.
Still the holder of the world record for the number of carrier landings, first landing AND take-off of a jet from a carrier and most aircraft types flown.
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Clearly you all know the square root of sod all about rugby but alot about digression.
The Greatest rugby player ever to have walked on the hallowed turf of twickenham and plenty of other places too was Barry John.
FEBA
The Greatest rugby player ever to have walked on the hallowed turf of twickenham and plenty of other places too was Barry John.
FEBA
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<<My nomination: Lt Cdr "Sharkey" Ward RN.>>
Ummmm...
I hope you have sourced your info from somewhere other than his book... Your post sounds remarkably like everything he wrote in there!
He certainly would never win an award for modesty...
Unless of course Navaleye is Sharkey on another self promotion exercise?
I am not saying anything against him - and any unbiased thoughts welcome... Certainly Woodward's book had no special mention of him (but then Sharkey had little good to say about Woodward!)
NoD
Ummmm...
I hope you have sourced your info from somewhere other than his book... Your post sounds remarkably like everything he wrote in there!
He certainly would never win an award for modesty...
Unless of course Navaleye is Sharkey on another self promotion exercise?
I am not saying anything against him - and any unbiased thoughts welcome... Certainly Woodward's book had no special mention of him (but then Sharkey had little good to say about Woodward!)
NoD
Suspicion breeds confidence
Thread Starter
Nomination
LOL !
If I was ward I think I would have plugged myself a bit louder than that and probably deleted the post WW2 bit as well. Still a great pilot IMHO though.
If I was ward I think I would have plugged myself a bit louder than that and probably deleted the post WW2 bit as well. Still a great pilot IMHO though.
There were a few F-4K jocks who would outfly the Sharkey in an ACM environment...(actually the Hooligan - SHAR test with a test flight ejection from a SHAR in '82 -was one of them as Sharkey admits to in his book) and another guy from 892 too...
Greatest is way too general IMO. Greatest as in greatest contribution would be quite a few...If you are talking about ACM which is what I care about then he's right in there with the best of them!
Greatest is way too general IMO. Greatest as in greatest contribution would be quite a few...If you are talking about ACM which is what I care about then he's right in there with the best of them!
Neil Williams has got to be up there, surely. Or Ray Hanna? Dickie Duckett? John Farley? Peter Carmichael (shooting down MiG-15s in a Sea Fury, for goodness sake!)? Keith Hartley? John Aldington? One of the RAF Sabre MiG-killers (Probably John Nicholls, since he got to Air Rank as well)? John Crampton (sneaky Canberras and RB-45s) 'Mac' Furze? Bill Pixton? Sam Drennan? Dave Bagshaw?
Ward's claim on the title is slightly diminished by his flair for self publicity, his apparent attitude to anyone who wasn't on his squadron (or at least in his community) and by his inability to see that some people might see some difference between celebrating a kill over an enemy combat aircraft, and doing the same, with equal relish and without apparent remorse, when it came to an unarmed C-130. Maybe taking account of squeamish civvy sensibilities is of no import, but many of the real greats are nice blokes, sensitive and modest as well.
Thus among the Falklands SHar pilots there were a host of nicer chaps, who arguably achieved as much, and sometimes even more. Steve Thomas? Dave Morgan? Rod Frederiksen? Paul Barton?
And I wouldn't want to ignore Bob Iveson, Peter Squire, Tony Harper, Jerry Pook, or Jeff Glover. (I met him after he'd been 'hoiked' into the Reds as a last minute replacement - top bloke!)
Ward's claim on the title is slightly diminished by his flair for self publicity, his apparent attitude to anyone who wasn't on his squadron (or at least in his community) and by his inability to see that some people might see some difference between celebrating a kill over an enemy combat aircraft, and doing the same, with equal relish and without apparent remorse, when it came to an unarmed C-130. Maybe taking account of squeamish civvy sensibilities is of no import, but many of the real greats are nice blokes, sensitive and modest as well.
Thus among the Falklands SHar pilots there were a host of nicer chaps, who arguably achieved as much, and sometimes even more. Steve Thomas? Dave Morgan? Rod Frederiksen? Paul Barton?
And I wouldn't want to ignore Bob Iveson, Peter Squire, Tony Harper, Jerry Pook, or Jeff Glover. (I met him after he'd been 'hoiked' into the Reds as a last minute replacement - top bloke!)
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Its all very well nominating guys that got to fly the wonderful British machinery, what about the blokes who got the machinery there in the first place. Some of your test pilots must be worth a mention.
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Gainsey
Or indeed, Voldermole! (I'm not mentioning his name - I can't afford to buy everyone drinks on this forum!).
Jacko
Lived next to Glovesy 12 years ago - diamond geezer, absolute diamond.
Shall we open up an alternative forum to suggest the American alternative? Let's start with
Chappy James
Robin Olds
Chuck Yeager
I'll get me coat.....
Or indeed, Voldermole! (I'm not mentioning his name - I can't afford to buy everyone drinks on this forum!).
Jacko
Lived next to Glovesy 12 years ago - diamond geezer, absolute diamond.
Shall we open up an alternative forum to suggest the American alternative? Let's start with
Chappy James
Robin Olds
Chuck Yeager
I'll get me coat.....
Anyone reading Chuck Yeager's book would put him top of the list.
Anyone comparing his descriptions with reality would reach a different conclusion. One prime example came in his description of flying the X-4, which (I'm paraphrasing) was such a bitch and so difficult to fly that after he'd shown it who was boss they dumped it in the desert there and then, and that no-one else was allowed near it. In fact it went on to fly hundreds more test flights, though one of its later pilots commented that its handling was it did require 'some finesse'. There's no doubt that Yeager was a giant (ten times the man I'll ever be), with enormous balls and incredible guts, but he may not have been the super-hero (in stick and rudder terms) that he claimed, and his belittling of other test pilots of his era (in print) tarnishes his reputation a bit, in my eyes.
But great Spam pilots are legion. Jimmy Stewart (yes, the actor and sometime B-24 pilot, who even flew a combat mission in 'Nam in a B-52!) would be up there, together with Dick Bellinger (F-8 ace in 'Nam), John Glenn, Pete Fernandez, etc.
Anyone comparing his descriptions with reality would reach a different conclusion. One prime example came in his description of flying the X-4, which (I'm paraphrasing) was such a bitch and so difficult to fly that after he'd shown it who was boss they dumped it in the desert there and then, and that no-one else was allowed near it. In fact it went on to fly hundreds more test flights, though one of its later pilots commented that its handling was it did require 'some finesse'. There's no doubt that Yeager was a giant (ten times the man I'll ever be), with enormous balls and incredible guts, but he may not have been the super-hero (in stick and rudder terms) that he claimed, and his belittling of other test pilots of his era (in print) tarnishes his reputation a bit, in my eyes.
But great Spam pilots are legion. Jimmy Stewart (yes, the actor and sometime B-24 pilot, who even flew a combat mission in 'Nam in a B-52!) would be up there, together with Dick Bellinger (F-8 ace in 'Nam), John Glenn, Pete Fernandez, etc.
Hello,
Jackonicko, you seem a little biased when it comes to the RAF aren't you?
I think I do understand Sharkey a little better now ref. his crab bashing!Well he did have a top notch team and he was an AWI after all!! Honest arrogance would probably describe the man (which is still preferable to false modesty in the immortal words of an american Navy pilot).
I don't know what the point in mentioning the C-130 incident is but if you read a little more closely he does show the proper sensitivity over the issue but comes across very clearly and correctly on this issue IMO especially as there were 'war circumstances' applied to the case. A bad potshot that one, if you ask me.
Btw outspoken does not necessarily mean not nice does it?
As for the americans, well that would be too big an issue that would have to go on a separate list...The no.1 slot is way too easy though so here you go:
COL John Boyd USAF (lasting contribution to aeronautics, aerial combat, field strategy and competitive thinking into business etct etc). More importantly Pope John among the cadre of USAFFWS instructor pilot and the best ACM pilot at the time.
Purely ACM:LT Mel Holmes USN (best ACM pilot to drive a Phantom)
LCDR John 'Smash' Nash (1 of the best ACM 'sticks' -F-4s also)
LCDR Jerry Sawatzky
All three above were of the from the original Topgun cadre who created the syllabus. 1 more is LT Jim 'Hawkeye' Laing a RIO who was THE WIZARD one of the most impressive NFOs ever. Between 21 and 23 years of age he had: 2 war cruises, Vietnam, 2 combat ejections, 1 Mig kill. On return to the states in '69 he bacame a Topgun 'developer' at age 23. Randy Cunningham and many others (years older senior to Laing) were instructed on the fine art of aerial combat by this 23 year old! Generations of RIOs still hold him as the finest USN RIO to have ever been, 'exemplifying the professionalism of the NFO' in the words of another RIO.
The crazy CDR Hoser Satrapa (F-8s, F-14s) had the finest spirit in any fighter pilot I've seen. One of the finest ever ACM pilots. CAPT Dale Snodgrass USN the high time F-14 driver and modern day top F-14 driver. You may have seen this fly by by him:
Chuck Yeager yes but not Robin Olds who by many accounts was a poor tactical leader in Nam.
Finally, the legend of Nellis, the acknowledged USAF FWS air to air guru COL Clyde 'Joe Bob' Phillips was among the great too...
Jackonicko, you seem a little biased when it comes to the RAF aren't you?
I think I do understand Sharkey a little better now ref. his crab bashing!Well he did have a top notch team and he was an AWI after all!! Honest arrogance would probably describe the man (which is still preferable to false modesty in the immortal words of an american Navy pilot).
I don't know what the point in mentioning the C-130 incident is but if you read a little more closely he does show the proper sensitivity over the issue but comes across very clearly and correctly on this issue IMO especially as there were 'war circumstances' applied to the case. A bad potshot that one, if you ask me.
Btw outspoken does not necessarily mean not nice does it?
As for the americans, well that would be too big an issue that would have to go on a separate list...The no.1 slot is way too easy though so here you go:
COL John Boyd USAF (lasting contribution to aeronautics, aerial combat, field strategy and competitive thinking into business etct etc). More importantly Pope John among the cadre of USAFFWS instructor pilot and the best ACM pilot at the time.
Purely ACM:LT Mel Holmes USN (best ACM pilot to drive a Phantom)
LCDR John 'Smash' Nash (1 of the best ACM 'sticks' -F-4s also)
LCDR Jerry Sawatzky
All three above were of the from the original Topgun cadre who created the syllabus. 1 more is LT Jim 'Hawkeye' Laing a RIO who was THE WIZARD one of the most impressive NFOs ever. Between 21 and 23 years of age he had: 2 war cruises, Vietnam, 2 combat ejections, 1 Mig kill. On return to the states in '69 he bacame a Topgun 'developer' at age 23. Randy Cunningham and many others (years older senior to Laing) were instructed on the fine art of aerial combat by this 23 year old! Generations of RIOs still hold him as the finest USN RIO to have ever been, 'exemplifying the professionalism of the NFO' in the words of another RIO.
The crazy CDR Hoser Satrapa (F-8s, F-14s) had the finest spirit in any fighter pilot I've seen. One of the finest ever ACM pilots. CAPT Dale Snodgrass USN the high time F-14 driver and modern day top F-14 driver. You may have seen this fly by by him:
Chuck Yeager yes but not Robin Olds who by many accounts was a poor tactical leader in Nam.
Finally, the legend of Nellis, the acknowledged USAF FWS air to air guru COL Clyde 'Joe Bob' Phillips was among the great too...