Greatest British (post WW2) miltary pilot
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I'd like to take the 'Post WW2' limitation off for a moment. Eric 'Bubi' Hartmann (Luftwaffe) simply for the greatest number of kills of all time....cos after the commit that's all that counts. However, as an all-rounder I think Von Richtofen's outstanding leadership and inspiration of his junior fighter pilots makes up for the fact that he got less than one third the number of kills Hartmann got.
If it has to be post WW2, then I also go for Armstrong. Landing in a place no human had ever been, completely lost and with 15 seconds of fuel left, he didn't pull the abort handle. Anybody know anybody else with balls like that?
If it has to be post WW2, then I also go for Armstrong. Landing in a place no human had ever been, completely lost and with 15 seconds of fuel left, he didn't pull the abort handle. Anybody know anybody else with balls like that?
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What about Alan Shepard, a few walked on the moon before him but nobody more determined ever did,they could not dock with the LEM on the trip out, that was enough to cause a abort right there ,Shepard was prepared to suit up go outside and heave the buggah out by hand,lash it to the Command Moule and haul it to the moon like that people who knew Shepard said he was not kidding,then he put the LEM down on a slope that should have called for a immediate abort , but not Shepard, he was going to put his footprint on the moon or die trying.
He had his critics, but Shepard was definatly the right stuff.
Gone now alas.
He had his critics, but Shepard was definatly the right stuff.
Gone now alas.
Hartmann's score owes a great deal to opportunity (target rich environment and an unlimited tour of operations), luck (he was shot down five times), and 'lax kill claim verification' by comparison with (say) the RAF.
He also wasn't British or military or post World War II.
But even if we're including German WWII blokes, Barkhorn (as a fighter leader) might better deserve the accolade, or even Hans Joachim Marseilles out in the Western Desert.
For WWI Barker would take a lot of beating (how many nil in that Snipe versus the entire German Imperial Flying Service?) while on the German side, Richthofen famously wasn't much of a pilot whereas Voss and Udet were both superb stick and rudder blokes, and almost as successful.
Or how about the leading scorer in Korea, Yevgeni Pepelyaev!
I'll get me coat....
He also wasn't British or military or post World War II.
But even if we're including German WWII blokes, Barkhorn (as a fighter leader) might better deserve the accolade, or even Hans Joachim Marseilles out in the Western Desert.
For WWI Barker would take a lot of beating (how many nil in that Snipe versus the entire German Imperial Flying Service?) while on the German side, Richthofen famously wasn't much of a pilot whereas Voss and Udet were both superb stick and rudder blokes, and almost as successful.
Or how about the leading scorer in Korea, Yevgeni Pepelyaev!
I'll get me coat....
Good point on mentioning Korea Jacko. The USAF (with some RAF, RCAF and USN pilots sprinkled in) was one of THE most aggressive fighter forces around and some of the greatest 'sticks' belong to that community...
Some of the greatest: Joe McConnell (16 kills) - heard on RT saying to his wingie 'got 30 Migs at 12 o'clock all to ourselves' or something to that effect, Ralph Parr (10 kills) with his epic 1v16 fight after diving to attack a formation of 16 Migs alone as tail end charlie. His CO said on his return: 'This is the last time you fly as a wingman when we need shooters up front!'. Others would be Boots Blesse, described as a top 'stick', Robbie Risner (distinguished graduates at the Nellis FWS receive the award named after him) and also a Canadian chap by the name of Doug Lindsay a Sqn Ldr at the time of the Korean war who in the words of his famous wingman (double ace Capt Hal Fischer -10/12 kills) was 'the finest pilot in the air'. He's seen below both as an ace Spit pilot and at far right during his time in Korea:
The Soviets clearly had quite a number of pilots from the top league in Korea especially during the first several months. Pepelyaev undoubtedly was a great pilot but his final score is something to be argued as according to a number of researchers lately he couldn't be verified with more than 12 kills (claimed 23).
Erich Hartmann on the other hand was truly great. He survived a greater number of hazardous situations in the air than the ones you mention but he was never shot down in air combat while winning 352 times - an unbelievable feat. His score includes approx. 250 fighters (or more) and at least 7 Mustangs (many of those on a single mission...).
PS In answer to Nozzles question about balls..I have still to come across a story to match the sheer courage (or ignorant stupidity perhaps?) of a few of the Marine CAS pilots in Vietnam in the early years of the war..Particularly Capt Manny Simpson's (USMC) mission to support ambushed USMC forces engaged with the NVA. Conditions beyond what would be described as IFR and closer to what would be described as hell, 250ft cloud base, rain, 450kts through and around valleys to repeatedly drop retarded bombs and then returning to find most bases switched off due to weather and an ILS landing with absolutely zero visibility being guided down to touch down and landing without ever having seen the runway due to fog...Frankly amazed at the fact these guys never received a MOH, certainly worth at least one IMO!
Some of the greatest: Joe McConnell (16 kills) - heard on RT saying to his wingie 'got 30 Migs at 12 o'clock all to ourselves' or something to that effect, Ralph Parr (10 kills) with his epic 1v16 fight after diving to attack a formation of 16 Migs alone as tail end charlie. His CO said on his return: 'This is the last time you fly as a wingman when we need shooters up front!'. Others would be Boots Blesse, described as a top 'stick', Robbie Risner (distinguished graduates at the Nellis FWS receive the award named after him) and also a Canadian chap by the name of Doug Lindsay a Sqn Ldr at the time of the Korean war who in the words of his famous wingman (double ace Capt Hal Fischer -10/12 kills) was 'the finest pilot in the air'. He's seen below both as an ace Spit pilot and at far right during his time in Korea:
The Soviets clearly had quite a number of pilots from the top league in Korea especially during the first several months. Pepelyaev undoubtedly was a great pilot but his final score is something to be argued as according to a number of researchers lately he couldn't be verified with more than 12 kills (claimed 23).
Erich Hartmann on the other hand was truly great. He survived a greater number of hazardous situations in the air than the ones you mention but he was never shot down in air combat while winning 352 times - an unbelievable feat. His score includes approx. 250 fighters (or more) and at least 7 Mustangs (many of those on a single mission...).
PS In answer to Nozzles question about balls..I have still to come across a story to match the sheer courage (or ignorant stupidity perhaps?) of a few of the Marine CAS pilots in Vietnam in the early years of the war..Particularly Capt Manny Simpson's (USMC) mission to support ambushed USMC forces engaged with the NVA. Conditions beyond what would be described as IFR and closer to what would be described as hell, 250ft cloud base, rain, 450kts through and around valleys to repeatedly drop retarded bombs and then returning to find most bases switched off due to weather and an ILS landing with absolutely zero visibility being guided down to touch down and landing without ever having seen the runway due to fog...Frankly amazed at the fact these guys never received a MOH, certainly worth at least one IMO!
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Yeah, Drapes, no question about Al Shepard. Didn't he die of cancer recently?
Jacko, I'm not quite sure why you've singled out my two nominees for such a thorough attack. As for them being of the wrong nationality and era to meet the criteria of the title of this thread, the thread had long before diversified to include such people-that's why it's still going. And as for Hartmann not being military, my sources list him as both GAF and Luftwaffe. In any case, I don't care if his only professional association was as a fully paid up member of the Bavarian Queer Tuba Players Society, who swanned around the mess in a ballgown with a schooner of sherry welded to his starboard mitt-the man shot down three hundred and fifty two aeroplanes in combat. His target environment may well have been rich. However, for target environment, read hazard environment-it's not a grouse shoot. The targets shoot at you as well. As for lax kill claim verification (if that can be objectively assessed) I'll deduct his first one hundred kills to keep you happy. He still looks awesome to me.
And as for Von Richtofen being 'famously not much of a pilot' I guess you reckon the standard for a below average pilot was 80 kills. Perhaps it was that luck thing you were talking about. In terms of his leadership, his junior pilots thought he was legendary.
ARXW-you seem to be a bit of a Vietnam expert-can you fill us in on the story about the guy who pushed his flamed-out wingman many miles to safety using the nose of his aircraft?
Jacko, I'm not quite sure why you've singled out my two nominees for such a thorough attack. As for them being of the wrong nationality and era to meet the criteria of the title of this thread, the thread had long before diversified to include such people-that's why it's still going. And as for Hartmann not being military, my sources list him as both GAF and Luftwaffe. In any case, I don't care if his only professional association was as a fully paid up member of the Bavarian Queer Tuba Players Society, who swanned around the mess in a ballgown with a schooner of sherry welded to his starboard mitt-the man shot down three hundred and fifty two aeroplanes in combat. His target environment may well have been rich. However, for target environment, read hazard environment-it's not a grouse shoot. The targets shoot at you as well. As for lax kill claim verification (if that can be objectively assessed) I'll deduct his first one hundred kills to keep you happy. He still looks awesome to me.
And as for Von Richtofen being 'famously not much of a pilot' I guess you reckon the standard for a below average pilot was 80 kills. Perhaps it was that luck thing you were talking about. In terms of his leadership, his junior pilots thought he was legendary.
ARXW-you seem to be a bit of a Vietnam expert-can you fill us in on the story about the guy who pushed his flamed-out wingman many miles to safety using the nose of his aircraft?
Nozzles,
Do calm down dear!
Richthofen was famously not much of a pilot (endless crack-ups on landing, endless near accidents), but he was a great tactician, a good leader and a fantastic shot. There's no doubt that he was a successful fighter pilot (the top scorer of the Great War), but that's not necessarily the mark of being a great pilot. The thread was about a chap being the 'greatest British (post WW2) military pilot'. Not about being the greatest air-to-air combat ace.
Hartman was, of course, military (doh typo sorry). But he did have to walk home 5 times and, like Richthofen, was not a great natural pilot, whereas Barkhorn had superb hands and later took to the F-86 (and the -104, if memory serves) like a duck to water.
That's all I meant.
Do calm down dear!
Richthofen was famously not much of a pilot (endless crack-ups on landing, endless near accidents), but he was a great tactician, a good leader and a fantastic shot. There's no doubt that he was a successful fighter pilot (the top scorer of the Great War), but that's not necessarily the mark of being a great pilot. The thread was about a chap being the 'greatest British (post WW2) military pilot'. Not about being the greatest air-to-air combat ace.
Hartman was, of course, military (doh typo sorry). But he did have to walk home 5 times and, like Richthofen, was not a great natural pilot, whereas Barkhorn had superb hands and later took to the F-86 (and the -104, if memory serves) like a duck to water.
That's all I meant.
Champagne anyone...?
Beat me to it, though the previously mentioned Robbie Risner did the same thing to his wingman during the Korean war and got him all the way out to friendly airspace, however in that case the wingman drowned following his ejection over the sea...
Barkhorn had superb hands and later took to the F-86 (and the -104, if memory serves) like a duck to water.
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The Best Pilot of All Time is ...
I reckon that the Best Pilot of All Time award should go to a Tornado Mud Mover.
How about John Peters, for putting up with that mad
navigator Nicholl.
How about John Peters, for putting up with that mad
navigator Nicholl.
2 obvious nominees!
Have only seen one nomination for Peter Twiss so far!
(actually, I am not sure exactly what things he achieved but I know he was a leading test pilot during the 50's and 60's)
Definitely did set an FAI record for the first jet to exceed 1,000mph in the Fairy Delta! , which came as a bit of a shock to the Americans and French (which never hurts now does it?)
Also, I would like to propose (in a unique catagory): NASA astronaut Michael Foal - (British or American?- you decide)
He has now got 6 x spaceflights under his belt (including MIR and now the ISS) and seems to be equally highly regarded by the Russians (he is fluent) and the USA. Surely carrying the torch for British piloting skills at the current time?
P.S.
I like Sharkey Ward; his anti RAF rant at the end of SHAR over the FI never fails to warm the cockles of my heart!)
El Flug
(actually, I am not sure exactly what things he achieved but I know he was a leading test pilot during the 50's and 60's)
Definitely did set an FAI record for the first jet to exceed 1,000mph in the Fairy Delta! , which came as a bit of a shock to the Americans and French (which never hurts now does it?)
Also, I would like to propose (in a unique catagory): NASA astronaut Michael Foal - (British or American?- you decide)
He has now got 6 x spaceflights under his belt (including MIR and now the ISS) and seems to be equally highly regarded by the Russians (he is fluent) and the USA. Surely carrying the torch for British piloting skills at the current time?
P.S.
I like Sharkey Ward; his anti RAF rant at the end of SHAR over the FI never fails to warm the cockles of my heart!)
El Flug
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Not my definitive submission, you understand, but it really is worth looking around at what was going on before you went into long pants.
Air Vice-Marshal David Dick (who died in 1999)
RAF test pilot who carried on tape-recording an assessment as his delta-wing jet plummeted to earth in an irrecoverable spin
"AIR VICE-MARSHAL DAVID DICK, the test pilot who has died aged 75, survived an irrecoverable spin while testing the world's first twin-jet delta-wing fighter.
On December 8 1955, Dick was testing a Gloster Javelin at the Aeroplane & Armament Experimental Establishment (A & AEE), Boscombe Down. He had completed three normal spins when, before returning to base, he decided to explore the Javelin's buffet boundary.
At 40,000 ft the aircraft entered an unusual spin, and Dick realised he was in serious trouble. Even so, as he lost control and the jet spun earthwards over the Isle of Wight, Dick continued to monitor its performance. Calmly and methodically he gave relevant information to a wire recorder. He did not eject until he reached 8,000 ft."
David Dick Obit
Air Vice-Marshal David Dick (who died in 1999)
RAF test pilot who carried on tape-recording an assessment as his delta-wing jet plummeted to earth in an irrecoverable spin
"AIR VICE-MARSHAL DAVID DICK, the test pilot who has died aged 75, survived an irrecoverable spin while testing the world's first twin-jet delta-wing fighter.
On December 8 1955, Dick was testing a Gloster Javelin at the Aeroplane & Armament Experimental Establishment (A & AEE), Boscombe Down. He had completed three normal spins when, before returning to base, he decided to explore the Javelin's buffet boundary.
At 40,000 ft the aircraft entered an unusual spin, and Dick realised he was in serious trouble. Even so, as he lost control and the jet spun earthwards over the Isle of Wight, Dick continued to monitor its performance. Calmly and methodically he gave relevant information to a wire recorder. He did not eject until he reached 8,000 ft."
David Dick Obit
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I'd nominate Flt Lt Charles 'Charlie' Charles. A legend in his own lunchtime, the young whip first saw service in the RAF at the end of the second world war. At a strapping 4 feet 9 inches tall, he made the lasses tremble at the knees. Logging 769 kills in the last year of the war, he was a bulwark amongst men (and ladies apparently). Perhaps more legendary were his mess antics. On one wintry night he got lashed up on Pimms and Tonic, ran down to Dover, swam across the channel, evaded the gerries all the way to the eagles nest, broke in and painted a comedy black square on the fuhrers top lip while he slept. By all accounts, AH was so chuffed he left it on (though the SDO at the Eagles Nest was shot). Perhaps CCC's greatest feats (but little known) were shortly after the war. He taught Chuck Y how to progessively adjust the attitude and trim, Robin Olds how to calculate Bingo fuel and Sharkey Ward how to integrate with other squadrons. He singlehandedly sorted out the Cuban missile crisis by allegedly sending each of the leaders a picture of Adolf with the message 'Sort it out, or C cubed is comin to get ya', was the first man on the moon (the original broadcast message did in fact say, 'This is one large step for me (4 feet tall) and an even bigger one for Blightey') and, shortly before his demise, discovered Australia. So, I nominate the above for being a top bloke.
SOTB
SOTB
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Had a temporary brain dump. What was the name of the aerobatic pilot who had a wing start to fold in a Zlin or something similar. Rolled into the collapsing wing (not natural reaction, but he had thought about the possibility before and realised which side he needed lift on). Recovered inverted and at the last second flipped it the right way up to land. That one act alone marks him out as a genius and one of the greatest post WW2 pilots. Don't think he was military though.
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Ali Barber
I believe the Gentleman you are refering to is Neil Williams, the incident occured at Hullavington in1970, he was flying a Zlin 526.
He wrote (in my opinion) one of the best books ever on Aerobatics. You should be able to buy it from any good pilot/bookshop.
Brgds
PoC
I believe the Gentleman you are refering to is Neil Williams, the incident occured at Hullavington in1970, he was flying a Zlin 526.
He wrote (in my opinion) one of the best books ever on Aerobatics. You should be able to buy it from any good pilot/bookshop.
Brgds
PoC