Who Controls The Skies??
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Who Controls The Skies??
OK, please bear with me for a second, I am an American, and am not a pilot, so I know some of you will say that is two strikes... I won't tell you what I do in the USAF, as that would probably mean the third!
Anyhow, as for my question, in discussions at lunch today a bud of mine mentioned he was once told that all airspace over the UK was controlled by the MOD and they would allocate which areas civvie aircraft can fly in. I guess he mean the MOD would tell the CAA where their planes could fly.
In the US the FAA controls the skies and allocates to the military.
So, is he full of it or is this true? I figured I could get a quick answer on this forum. I am sure I will also get a lot of Yank bashing as well, but it comes with the territory!
Thanks! Maj M2
Anyhow, as for my question, in discussions at lunch today a bud of mine mentioned he was once told that all airspace over the UK was controlled by the MOD and they would allocate which areas civvie aircraft can fly in. I guess he mean the MOD would tell the CAA where their planes could fly.
In the US the FAA controls the skies and allocates to the military.
So, is he full of it or is this true? I figured I could get a quick answer on this forum. I am sure I will also get a lot of Yank bashing as well, but it comes with the territory!
Thanks! Maj M2
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He's full of it.
We get given areas for air-to-air combat and air-to-air flying, but even then there's actually nothing to stop civies blundering through. We are the only ones attempting any control over the low level environment (up to 2000') as we operate a system where the military book in and out to make sure that we reduce the chance of crashing in to each other. Again however, this is generally free airspace, open to the civies and they do not need to book in.
We get given areas for air-to-air combat and air-to-air flying, but even then there's actually nothing to stop civies blundering through. We are the only ones attempting any control over the low level environment (up to 2000') as we operate a system where the military book in and out to make sure that we reduce the chance of crashing in to each other. Again however, this is generally free airspace, open to the civies and they do not need to book in.
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Its OK we are saving that for our chum "B Sousa" in the other threads....full credit to him for sticking around and facing the music for his fellow countrymen! So MajorMad you are off the hook...
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Just try and remember there are 290,342,554 (July 2003 est.) different opinions of what being an American is all about! Having been born and somewhat raised in Europe (lived in Germany, the UK and Belgium), I have a slightly different viewpoint of my country that many of my fellow Americans do not share. I don't totally agree with everything my government does, nor do I think it is always right. However, I have volunteered my entire adult life to serving it in the military (well, the USAF 
), and right or wrong, it is still the country I love.
OK, now that the US national anthem has stopped playing and the stars and stripes stopped waving, please allow me to thank Opso for the answer. To be fair my bud never claimed to be correct, it was just something he had heard I thought I could verify on this forum.
Cheers! Maj M2
), and right or wrong, it is still the country I love.OK, now that the US national anthem has stopped playing and the stars and stripes stopped waving, please allow me to thank Opso for the answer. To be fair my bud never claimed to be correct, it was just something he had heard I thought I could verify on this forum.
Cheers! Maj M2
Most of your fellow Amuuuuuuuuricans probably have no idea where Germany, the UK or Belgium actually are. "I guess that's someplace out of state" would probably be all Billy-Bob Redneck might offer, in between gulps of 'shine.."Is they some Commie folks we gonna nuke?"
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MAJ MM,
I am currently surrounded by a few thousand of your countrymen/women and I have to say that all of them I have met are thoroughly polite and very friendly.
I know what you mean ref service vs. government policy. The Aussie government makes it's decisions and mine is not to reason why.
I am currently surrounded by a few thousand of your countrymen/women and I have to say that all of them I have met are thoroughly polite and very friendly.
I know what you mean ref service vs. government policy. The Aussie government makes it's decisions and mine is not to reason why.
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BEagle
I hate to admit it but you are right. When we left Texas for Belgium, a majority of the folks there thought it was in Germany! Now, historical arguments that it once was a part of Germany aside, I seriously doubt many of them could find Germany on the map!
When I was back in Florida for my 20th high school reunion, I was talking to my old classmates about my experiences in Bosnia. To give them credit, many of them had heard of the place but admitted they had no idea where it actually was. I believe many thought it was in the Middle East, which would have been even more commonly thought if any of them knew there were Muslims there!
But, like many other militaries, the folks that serve have a much broader knowledge (and hopefully tolerance) of the world. I have my political and personal opinions about many international issues, but when it comes down to the brass tacks and I am out there with my comrades in arms, my loyalty is to them and not the ignorants back home. C'mon, give me a break...freedom fries?!? How embarassing!
By the way, being at a NATO assignment allows me to meet and learn from individuals from other militaries, which I consider one of the greatest benefits of this tour. Heck, I even have friends in the French armed forces!! I get the same crap about Americans from them and everyone else as I see on this forum, much of it justified, but I hope I change their opinions that all Americans are single-minded on everything...at least some of us try to be a little openminded!
Cheers! Maj M2
I hate to admit it but you are right. When we left Texas for Belgium, a majority of the folks there thought it was in Germany! Now, historical arguments that it once was a part of Germany aside, I seriously doubt many of them could find Germany on the map!
When I was back in Florida for my 20th high school reunion, I was talking to my old classmates about my experiences in Bosnia. To give them credit, many of them had heard of the place but admitted they had no idea where it actually was. I believe many thought it was in the Middle East, which would have been even more commonly thought if any of them knew there were Muslims there!
But, like many other militaries, the folks that serve have a much broader knowledge (and hopefully tolerance) of the world. I have my political and personal opinions about many international issues, but when it comes down to the brass tacks and I am out there with my comrades in arms, my loyalty is to them and not the ignorants back home. C'mon, give me a break...freedom fries?!? How embarassing!
By the way, being at a NATO assignment allows me to meet and learn from individuals from other militaries, which I consider one of the greatest benefits of this tour. Heck, I even have friends in the French armed forces!!
I get the same crap about Americans from them and everyone else as I see on this forum, much of it justified, but I hope I change their opinions that all Americans are single-minded on everything...at least some of us try to be a little openminded!Cheers! Maj M2
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OPSO - Your response is to say the least poor. Civilian pilots do not "blunder" into "your" airspace. If the areas to which you refer are open FIR then ALL aircraft have right of passage. There are areas designated purely for the military so one could respond to you by saying why don't you keep to them and keep away from the open FIR and don't just go blundering about? Just as ridiculous eh waht?
What "controls" would you advocate below 2000ft? You cannot control the few RAF a/c currently in service adequately, if comments on other threads is anything to go by.
But to answer the original question - the allocation of airspace is I believe the perogative of the Director of Airspace Policy and Military and Civilian alike are required to observe the laws laid down by the CIVILIAN Director in accordance with the powers granted by HM Government.
What "controls" would you advocate below 2000ft? You cannot control the few RAF a/c currently in service adequately, if comments on other threads is anything to go by.
But to answer the original question - the allocation of airspace is I believe the perogative of the Director of Airspace Policy and Military and Civilian alike are required to observe the laws laid down by the CIVILIAN Director in accordance with the powers granted by HM Government.
Texas.....hmm. Well they probably didn't even recognise Yankee authority and still thought that the Confederacy held sway down thar!
And certain Texicans hadn't even ventured outside the ConUS very often before taking up office in that little white building in Washington!
And certain Texicans hadn't even ventured outside the ConUS very often before taking up office in that little white building in Washington!
workinghard, points to ponder...
Our TTAs are there for our use only, civilian ac have no right to be there below 2000' agl
Just because the hierarchy and some procurement decisions are slagged off in other threads, please do not insult us with your uninformed comments on how we 'control our ac'
You have no idea how high our standards are from ab-initio through to combat ready work-up training, and beyond.
We are all entitled to use the open FIR, but the low-level arena is ours to train with as we see fit. Its is usually some gash PPL not using the CANP system properly who causes mid-air collisions!
And the Military Air Traffic Oraganisation (MATO) work hand in glove with the CAA to determine airspace policy.
Just because the hierarchy and some procurement decisions are slagged off in other threads, please do not insult us with your uninformed comments on how we 'control our ac'
You have no idea how high our standards are from ab-initio through to combat ready work-up training, and beyond.
We are all entitled to use the open FIR, but the low-level arena is ours to train with as we see fit. Its is usually some gash PPL not using the CANP system properly who causes mid-air collisions!
And the Military Air Traffic Oraganisation (MATO) work hand in glove with the CAA to determine airspace policy.
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Training Risky
Risky
I think that your post is going to attract a certain amount of flak.
Deservedly.
I haven't flown military ac for ten years plus, but unless this country is rapidly moving towards military dictatorship (in which case, can I come back in, please?) I think that you are spouting bolleaux.
When I did PPL air law (OK, I was 17 then, and 40+ now) the civvy rule was 'not within 500 feet of any person, vehicle, vessel or structure', unless overridden by the requirement to be able to glide clear of a built-up area in the event of an engine failure. As far as I know, it still is. Barring controlled airspace, everywhere.
Of course, I welcome correction if the military really do have a say in these things these days...
Gadget
I think that your post is going to attract a certain amount of flak.
Deservedly.
I haven't flown military ac for ten years plus, but unless this country is rapidly moving towards military dictatorship (in which case, can I come back in, please?) I think that you are spouting bolleaux.
When I did PPL air law (OK, I was 17 then, and 40+ now) the civvy rule was 'not within 500 feet of any person, vehicle, vessel or structure', unless overridden by the requirement to be able to glide clear of a built-up area in the event of an engine failure. As far as I know, it still is. Barring controlled airspace, everywhere.
Of course, I welcome correction if the military really do have a say in these things these days...
Gadget
I'm going with Captain Gadget on this, the Tactical Training Areas, along with the rest of the low flying system don't even exist on the charts the CAA produces. If you follow the 500' rule you can happily fly down to ground level in various bits of the country as a PPL, mostly the same ones the military uses, for the same reasons, no one lives there to annoy.
There's also no actual requirement for them to use CANPs. I guess that's why everyone's so hot on visual lookout!
There's also no actual requirement for them to use CANPs. I guess that's why everyone's so hot on visual lookout!
Last edited by Bing; 28th Sep 2003 at 06:27.
Hey MMM....
If it wasn't for the USA....Belgium would still be a part of Germany....as would the UK in all liklihood!
I will stand by my mate Bert Sousa.....two of us against the rest of this mob....about fair odds it seems!
If it wasn't for the USA....Belgium would still be a part of Germany....as would the UK in all liklihood!
I will stand by my mate Bert Sousa.....two of us against the rest of this mob....about fair odds it seems!
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SASless
Keep that crap on the near-miss thread, if you would please, and good luck with your battles. My dad taught me to pick my fights wisely, some damn good advice!
Cheers! Maj M2
Keep that crap on the near-miss thread, if you would please, and good luck with your battles. My dad taught me to pick my fights wisely, some damn good advice!
Cheers! Maj M2
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Risky - with that kind of response (which is totally incorrect) I hope to God you are not
1) A pilot
2) In the military
3) Have anything to do with aircraft at all
Dream on mate the skies still belong to all of us
1) A pilot
2) In the military
3) Have anything to do with aircraft at all
Dream on mate the skies still belong to all of us
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I'm appalled at the lack of knowledge displayed on this forum by individuals who frankly should know better. OpsO, if you are employed in ops then please get the books out and do some revision! Training Risky, the same applies to you too, and FYI MATO ceased to exist some time ago.
Captain Gadget is spot on in what he says, a PPL pilot under the provisions of 'Rule 5' of Rules of the Air can fly down to zero feet if he so wishes providing he is 500 ft clear of any person, vessel, vehicle or structure. There are also the 1500' and 1000m provisions of rule 5 which are aimed at ac flying over built areas and large gatherings of people. It is not an exaggeration to say that there be dragons out there.
Captain Gadget is spot on in what he says, a PPL pilot under the provisions of 'Rule 5' of Rules of the Air can fly down to zero feet if he so wishes providing he is 500 ft clear of any person, vessel, vehicle or structure. There are also the 1500' and 1000m provisions of rule 5 which are aimed at ac flying over built areas and large gatherings of people. It is not an exaggeration to say that there be dragons out there.
