Who Controls The Skies??
Training Risky's comments merely illustrate how very little people like him are taught (?) about Aviation Law and Operational Procedures in the UK.
Personally I consider that the average PPL applicant knows more about the sub-divison of UK airspace than many graduates of the current 'training' system. Keep hacking away and cutting costs and corners and it isn't surprising that dangerous gaps in knowledge will result.
Personally I consider that the average PPL applicant knows more about the sub-divison of UK airspace than many graduates of the current 'training' system. Keep hacking away and cutting costs and corners and it isn't surprising that dangerous gaps in knowledge will result.
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I share Beagle's concerns.
TR, are you REALLY a military aviator? If so, I am aghast at the apparent complete lack of understanding. Could I suggest the odd evening with the JSP 550 series (you know, the documents that have replaced 318, 318A et al). A quick scan of the UK Civil AIP might also be enlightening.
TR, are you REALLY a military aviator? If so, I am aghast at the apparent complete lack of understanding. Could I suggest the odd evening with the JSP 550 series (you know, the documents that have replaced 318, 318A et al). A quick scan of the UK Civil AIP might also be enlightening.
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
The UK airspace regulatory body is the CAA, which is a joint civil/military organisation. The question of whether it is the civil or military who make a decision doesn't arise. Where there is a conflict of interest it is resolved internally, if it can't be, it's passed up the ladder.
For interest, the CAA manager for Off-Route Airspace is presently an RAF Wing Commander.
For interest, the CAA manager for Off-Route Airspace is presently an RAF Wing Commander.
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ORAC - thanks for the detail. If the CAA is the regulatory body then the airspace is regulated by a purely civilian organisation (albeit that some military personell sit on the board). When you say anything that cannot be agreed is "sent up the ladder" - could you be more specific please? Is this to the Director of Airspace Policy? The DAP is another civilian is he(she) not? We must also remember that whilst some members of the CAA may hold a military rank it is absolutely a civilian body
Ecce Homo! Loquitur...
Depends on your definition of civil, on that basis the MOD is also a civil organisation. It is, after all, half staffed by civilians and run by a politician.
The Directorate of Airspace Policy is the part of the CAA which regulates airspace. The Director is John Arscott AVM (Retired), ex AOC MATO. Small world isn't it?
If you want a translation of, "up the ladder", see CAP 723, in particular Chapter 1, page 2 and the Joint Air Navigation Services Council (JANSC) and the Airspace Policy Committee (APC).
The Directorate of Airspace Policy is the part of the CAA which regulates airspace. The Director is John Arscott AVM (Retired), ex AOC MATO. Small world isn't it?
If you want a translation of, "up the ladder", see CAP 723, in particular Chapter 1, page 2 and the Joint Air Navigation Services Council (JANSC) and the Airspace Policy Committee (APC).
Last edited by ORAC; 30th Sep 2003 at 16:53.
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F3Ss
Thanks for that,matey.I had to ask because one night last week I was approaching a major MidEast airfield and got a TCAS indication of an aircraft 1 mile ahead of us and 2000 feet above us but we could see nothing even though the viz was excellant. Once the sep. increased to 5 miles ATC cleared him to descend through our level,he replied and he was American-accented with the background noise of his TX's implying he was in a Turbo-prop and requesting..."a Uniform frequency instead of a Victor freq." I deduced he was military. On the ground after much discussion we decided to do nothing and put it down to a fatigued crew forgetting to display their exterior lights after transitioning from an operational area to a non-ops area.
On the return flight,2 hours later, we observed 3 items of traffic on TCAS this time all within 3 miles of us flying S&L and one climbing, but still no NAV lights, beacons or strobes displayed. One item that we overtook(he was 2000ft below) gave me particular concern because he was very close and if we had had to initiate an immediate descent for whatever reason we wouldn't have been able to see him. The 2 items that passed down our left hand side would have caused us concern if we needed to make a left turn towards one of our en-route diversion fields in an emergency.
I understand and agree with their need to disguise their presence in an Operational area but in congested Civilian airspace? At night? Is it really neccessary? TCAS is excellant and a lifesaver, but you can't beat Mk1 Eyeball. On the ground we each checked the published NOTAMS twice and found nothing about "Military aircraft unable to comply with the Rules of the Air" or non displaying of lights. We then placed a call to our Flight Safety people.
MMM.
Welcome aboard. It's good to see you and I agree with F3Ss, you will go far. It's a pleasure to read your posts and I look forward to reading many more.
SASless.
We'll turn your statement on it's head. If it hadn't been for the Brit's,
"Y'all be speakin Frenchie,now Boy!" instead of American.
Thanks for that,matey.I had to ask because one night last week I was approaching a major MidEast airfield and got a TCAS indication of an aircraft 1 mile ahead of us and 2000 feet above us but we could see nothing even though the viz was excellant. Once the sep. increased to 5 miles ATC cleared him to descend through our level,he replied and he was American-accented with the background noise of his TX's implying he was in a Turbo-prop and requesting..."a Uniform frequency instead of a Victor freq." I deduced he was military. On the ground after much discussion we decided to do nothing and put it down to a fatigued crew forgetting to display their exterior lights after transitioning from an operational area to a non-ops area.
On the return flight,2 hours later, we observed 3 items of traffic on TCAS this time all within 3 miles of us flying S&L and one climbing, but still no NAV lights, beacons or strobes displayed. One item that we overtook(he was 2000ft below) gave me particular concern because he was very close and if we had had to initiate an immediate descent for whatever reason we wouldn't have been able to see him. The 2 items that passed down our left hand side would have caused us concern if we needed to make a left turn towards one of our en-route diversion fields in an emergency.
I understand and agree with their need to disguise their presence in an Operational area but in congested Civilian airspace? At night? Is it really neccessary? TCAS is excellant and a lifesaver, but you can't beat Mk1 Eyeball. On the ground we each checked the published NOTAMS twice and found nothing about "Military aircraft unable to comply with the Rules of the Air" or non displaying of lights. We then placed a call to our Flight Safety people.
MMM.
Welcome aboard. It's good to see you and I agree with F3Ss, you will go far. It's a pleasure to read your posts and I look forward to reading many more.
SASless.
We'll turn your statement on it's head. If it hadn't been for the Brit's,
"Y'all be speakin Frenchie,now Boy!" instead of American.
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ORAC - thanks again for the research listed. It is quite clear then that all policy is from a civilian organisation with input from the military personnel that are there on a seconded basis.
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Pontious
I didn't think we Americans had accents, just you Brits!!
Sorry, couldn't resist...plus I figured everyone here would have a sense of humor. If not, then go requisition yourself one!
And as someone who is lucky enough to be with his family right now, when many of you aren't, please accept my thanks for doing your jobs so well under such $hitty conditions. I know saying that doesn't help much, but at least know you are appreciated!
Cheers! Maj M2
I didn't think we Americans had accents, just you Brits!!
Sorry, couldn't resist...plus I figured everyone here would have a sense of humor. If not, then go requisition yourself one!
And as someone who is lucky enough to be with his family right now, when many of you aren't, please accept my thanks for doing your jobs so well under such $hitty conditions. I know saying that doesn't help much, but at least know you are appreciated!
Cheers! Maj M2
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OK, I know we take some flack about being somewhat ignorant of other nation's ranks and insignia, but I had to laugh today when we took a trip to RHQAFNORTH and after the LCDR that was with our group informed the US soldier that he (the LCDR) was in the Royal Navy, the soldier asked him which country that was!
But too be honest it was difficult to tell which Navy type was from what country, as they all had white shirts, black ties, and gold stripes on shoulderboards for rank.
As for me I may recognize more ranks from other countries than your average American (or South American as my Candian buds jokingly refer to us as), but I am far from an expert. However, I did find a nifty little program for my Palm Pilot that shows all the current NATO country ranks...FedSoft NATO Rank & Insignia program, but I've got news for them...there are 19 NATO countries at the moment (with 7 more on the way), not 14 as listed. Oh well, I guess I am not along in my ignorance, but at least I try...
Cheers! Maj M2
But too be honest it was difficult to tell which Navy type was from what country, as they all had white shirts, black ties, and gold stripes on shoulderboards for rank.
As for me I may recognize more ranks from other countries than your average American (or South American as my Candian buds jokingly refer to us as), but I am far from an expert. However, I did find a nifty little program for my Palm Pilot that shows all the current NATO country ranks...FedSoft NATO Rank & Insignia program, but I've got news for them...there are 19 NATO countries at the moment (with 7 more on the way), not 14 as listed. Oh well, I guess I am not along in my ignorance, but at least I try...
Cheers! Maj M2
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I have to say I find the Navy a complete mystery. It's all rum, sodomy and the lash. That and Cossing the Line ceremonies.
As for accents, everyone knows that Australians are the only ones without one, it's the rest of the world that speaks funny.
As for accents, everyone knows that Australians are the only ones without one, it's the rest of the world that speaks funny.
Pardon me for interrupting the Revolutionary War (1776-2003-?).
Thank Goodness that Wellington and the Prussian allies (under von Blucher) coordinated to beat Napoleon at Waterloo. Wellington hid a few thousand soldiers on the hidden slope.
But our 'American' cuisine would have been much better.
Until now, I had thought that Belgium was a town in Texas where they export so many goed waffles/crepes. We had very good pannekoeken in Brugge, Belgium too. And they were 'heel smaklijk', even without a fresh de Koninck beer. Brugge must be a suburb, but they talk kinda funny, like they all have a head cold. I jes don't git it.
Thank Goodness that Wellington and the Prussian allies (under von Blucher) coordinated to beat Napoleon at Waterloo. Wellington hid a few thousand soldiers on the hidden slope.
But our 'American' cuisine would have been much better.
Until now, I had thought that Belgium was a town in Texas where they export so many goed waffles/crepes. We had very good pannekoeken in Brugge, Belgium too. And they were 'heel smaklijk', even without a fresh de Koninck beer. Brugge must be a suburb, but they talk kinda funny, like they all have a head cold. I jes don't git it.
Last edited by Ignition Override; 4th Oct 2003 at 13:39.
Hmm-perhaps, Westie. But then we don't define 'gourmet restaurants' as 'restaurants which don't serve hamburgers'!
"Toad-in-the-hole with some bubble-and-squeak, hot mustard and a little onion gravy, Sir? With some spotted dick and custard to follow?"
"Or will Sir settle for the Big Mac, with large fries?"
Personally I prefer the cuisine of the Italians - or your friends the French - to most of the standard British cuisine!
But 'Meals Recycled for Ethiopians......
'? Which bunch of grateful recipients of Uncle Spam's generosity was it who didn't even bother to open their MRE boxes - but used them instead to fill holes in the road?
"Toad-in-the-hole with some bubble-and-squeak, hot mustard and a little onion gravy, Sir? With some spotted dick and custard to follow?"
"Or will Sir settle for the Big Mac, with large fries?"
Personally I prefer the cuisine of the Italians - or your friends the French - to most of the standard British cuisine!
But 'Meals Recycled for Ethiopians......
'? Which bunch of grateful recipients of Uncle Spam's generosity was it who didn't even bother to open their MRE boxes - but used them instead to fill holes in the road?