(UK) Military 250kt limit
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Well, well, well, straight from the horses mouth so to speak. According to Training Risky PPL are "gash pilots" and according to Deliverance anyone who has the audacity to disagree with him should "piss off". I would be interested to read what went on your psychometric test assessment at OASC. How the hell did you ever become pilots (assuming you are military pilots) with that kind of attitude. Bet your line boss does not hear such remarks from you. However that said what happens when the FJ pulls above 500 ft doing whatever speed is allowed? What is the speed in a battle situation at LL. is it above mach 1 or is it say 700k? Why do you not practise at those speeds? Because it is not acceptable to the people you are supposed to serve. Go what speed you like below 500ft in the designated areas but when you get up into the open FIR remember other people are there by right and if your flying in that FIR has to be restricted to accomodate them, then live with it or find something else that may satisy your arrogance
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Why do you have this problem with PPL. It is not just PPL who transit in the open FIR, many CAT operations are in this category of airspace and also remember that a large part of GA is other than PPL. So do you want the airspace cleared for your unknown, undetermined manoeuvres at high speed? Grow up little man. Perhaps the RNZAF masters saw something like you running it and decided to act in the best interest of everyone!
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Civillians who know square root of f-all about military ops should not be calling the shots here. Stick to your airways and shut up.
The number of FJ squadrons about now is a fraction of what it was 10 years ago, the RAF is HALF what it was in GW1. There is consequently less LL traffic now than ever.
If the price of freedom is occasional jet noise and an extra tenner on your holiday cos your operator can't cut the corner out of an airway then it's VERY CHEAP in my book.
Go and lament why you failed OASC and let us get on with our mis-understood job.
The number of FJ squadrons about now is a fraction of what it was 10 years ago, the RAF is HALF what it was in GW1. There is consequently less LL traffic now than ever.
If the price of freedom is occasional jet noise and an extra tenner on your holiday cos your operator can't cut the corner out of an airway then it's VERY CHEAP in my book.
Go and lament why you failed OASC and let us get on with our mis-understood job.
Long unpaid overtime hours for the Queen
I guess some of us have to work this weekend (but not me!). Ahhh the unappreciated things that some of us have to do to protect this glorious Kingdom...
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The main argument on this thread now seems to be between professionals and amateurs.
Perhaps the amateurs should accept that their taxes are funding professionals to protect them and unless they allow those professionals to do so in a well-considered and professional way their money will be wasted.
In any case, they have about as much chance of getting the military to either abandon low level training or restrict speeds to 250kts as they have of finding WMD in Iraq.
So why is anybody getting wound up about it?
Perhaps the amateurs should accept that their taxes are funding professionals to protect them and unless they allow those professionals to do so in a well-considered and professional way their money will be wasted.
In any case, they have about as much chance of getting the military to either abandon low level training or restrict speeds to 250kts as they have of finding WMD in Iraq.
So why is anybody getting wound up about it?
250Kt Limit
The latest TCAS may solve the problem? GA traffic has mandatory fit and reacts to TCAS alert. LL FJ makes note and applies min seperation criteria. PPL fliers just ignore the kit because they don't even know how to switch it on or what its telling them.
No one allowed into "uncontrolled airspace" unless they have air defense radar........
Might we want to reconsider the concept of "uncontrolled" if that is the case?
We have plenty of room here in the USA....as does Canada....or OZ for that matter and with the same kind of weather.....why don't you set up a training site(s) as was done during WW2 and escape from all the hassles you have trying to operate within the UK for your low level....dare devil flying? That way, the vast majority of flights would be done in a safer less congested environment.
Might we want to reconsider the concept of "uncontrolled" if that is the case?
We have plenty of room here in the USA....as does Canada....or OZ for that matter and with the same kind of weather.....why don't you set up a training site(s) as was done during WW2 and escape from all the hassles you have trying to operate within the UK for your low level....dare devil flying? That way, the vast majority of flights would be done in a safer less congested environment.
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Guido, I'm not sure what you're talking about, but TCAS certainly is not a required fit on GA aircraft and never will be due to the weight penalty. What is madatory is having a transponder turned on where fitted.
The solution is the develpment of adequate military TCAS for fast jets, that won't give spurious alerts every five seconds - it is of course the faster in the sky that gives way to the slower - I'm not sure how you expect a Cessna to be able to manoevure out of a GR4's way at LL with adequate separation.
The problem is that civilians with the knowledge of square root of FA make our laws, fund the military and are often quite vocal. Educating the point, instead of telling them to ****** off as it's not their business will only aggravate the point.
PPLs are certainly not gash - military . Some are. So are some fast jet pilots. The biggest problem is the lack of training about military ops in PPL and ATPL which doesn't help at all - has anyone else seen FJ LL routes on a CAA chart.
For those who do need to go low level - which is incidenctally allowed with prior dispensation from the CAA for training or whatever purpose anyway - I propose that all civilians should be taught about LL booking system, and be able to use it as well where necessary (ie not simply PFLs or it would be overloaded!)
I am also now convinced that all airline executives knows everything there is to know about geopolitics and will bow down to their greater knowledge, ignoring all university education. Hanger35 - you're an ass.
reynolds no 1: civil traffic is limited to 250kts IAS in uncontrolled airspace in the UK - no speed restrictions beyond controllers' apply in controlled airspace.
My latest low flying complaint aginst me? At 600'. Guess where? Finals. *******!
The solution is the develpment of adequate military TCAS for fast jets, that won't give spurious alerts every five seconds - it is of course the faster in the sky that gives way to the slower - I'm not sure how you expect a Cessna to be able to manoevure out of a GR4's way at LL with adequate separation.
The problem is that civilians with the knowledge of square root of FA make our laws, fund the military and are often quite vocal. Educating the point, instead of telling them to ****** off as it's not their business will only aggravate the point.
PPLs are certainly not gash - military . Some are. So are some fast jet pilots. The biggest problem is the lack of training about military ops in PPL and ATPL which doesn't help at all - has anyone else seen FJ LL routes on a CAA chart.
For those who do need to go low level - which is incidenctally allowed with prior dispensation from the CAA for training or whatever purpose anyway - I propose that all civilians should be taught about LL booking system, and be able to use it as well where necessary (ie not simply PFLs or it would be overloaded!)
I am also now convinced that all airline executives knows everything there is to know about geopolitics and will bow down to their greater knowledge, ignoring all university education. Hanger35 - you're an ass.
reynolds no 1: civil traffic is limited to 250kts IAS in uncontrolled airspace in the UK - no speed restrictions beyond controllers' apply in controlled airspace.
My latest low flying complaint aginst me? At 600'. Guess where? Finals. *******!
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why don't you set up a training site(s) as was done during WW2 and escape from all the hassles you have trying to operate within the UK for your low level....dare devil flying? That way, the vast majority of flights would be done in a safer less congested environment.
I wonder how many of this winters planned deployments will materialize. 
Lux ferens, no, it is cetainly not mandatory to switch on a transponder where carried.
It is only mandatory to have a serviceable SSR outside regulated airspace below FL100 if you are operating under IFR. (This is a bit of a simplification as there are other rules in the Jockistani TMA). Hence Golf-Alpha-Good-Morning-All-I'm a PA28-err... can quite happily operate under VFR without talking or squawking. Which is bliss!
Mark you, for sport you can always go and find one of those corner-cutting airliners in Class G airspace, sneak up on it with the IFF at standby and then switch it on at close range and watch the chaos as the TCAS TA/RA is responded to... No, on second thoughts, please don't
It is only mandatory to have a serviceable SSR outside regulated airspace below FL100 if you are operating under IFR. (This is a bit of a simplification as there are other rules in the Jockistani TMA). Hence Golf-Alpha-Good-Morning-All-I'm a PA28-err... can quite happily operate under VFR without talking or squawking. Which is bliss!
Mark you, for sport you can always go and find one of those corner-cutting airliners in Class G airspace, sneak up on it with the IFF at standby and then switch it on at close range and watch the chaos as the TCAS TA/RA is responded to... No, on second thoughts, please don't
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TCAS at LL
I do hope nobody believes TCAS is viable at low level. Putting aside the issue of radio wave coverage; hence the reason you are LL!!! other problems exist.
Without teaching granny to suck eggs, TCAS separates vertically, with one aircraft being told to climb, the other descend. In such circumstances, I vote to be the one told to climb!!
Whilst some TCAS presentations give a plan view of the position of other traffic, it is not accurate and at the LL environment would probably be a distraction. It is bad enough in the approach environment in a multi-pilot ergonomically designed flight deck; on a single pilot ergonomic nightmare.......
Without teaching granny to suck eggs, TCAS separates vertically, with one aircraft being told to climb, the other descend. In such circumstances, I vote to be the one told to climb!!
Whilst some TCAS presentations give a plan view of the position of other traffic, it is not accurate and at the LL environment would probably be a distraction. It is bad enough in the approach environment in a multi-pilot ergonomically designed flight deck; on a single pilot ergonomic nightmare.......
Last edited by Liam Gallagher; 1st Sep 2003 at 09:38.
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TCAS is nasty at low level, we had a Fokker 50 that got "descend" command form TCAS on short finals due to a fighter passing overhead for break. Descend when you are 200ft AGL in a F-50.........
Think this has been fixed in the latest version though. (Not decend when below xxx-ft with gear down ect, doses not help you FJ lot a bit I should think
)
Think this has been fixed in the latest version though. (Not decend when below xxx-ft with gear down ect, doses not help you FJ lot a bit I should think
)
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Passing Ship Traffic??????!!
Naval ships transponders have triggered TCAS on approach and departures, regularly in some cases. A call to the navy when the ships are alongside to ask them to sqwk standby is novel to say the least!
No six lookout? You'll have no rear end...
Nosegunner, at Mach 1.6 you will still be caught out by most AAM's. Suggest you tell your tailgunner to keep alert! 