Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

What the company are trying to achieve by having DEC's on the 380 is mostly about salaries. They are struggling at present to attract people with the current package and are running out of smoke screens to present under the guise of "the package".

What DEC's onto the 380 will do is attract some guys who probably wouldn't have come to fly a 777 for the salary that EK offer. But may come to finish off their career on the 380.

Just another attempt to keep "the package" at 3rd world levels for another year or two.

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

If I were a betting man, I would say that most of the f/o's on the fat bitch will be new hires, DEC's on the other hand , well don't think Airbus would be too happy about it, as far as I know Airbus only want experienced 340 pilots to fly there baby for a while, just incase......remember nothing can go wrong with fly,fly,fly,fly

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

Experienced A340 pilots? Where are they going to come from? SQ? CX? VS? AF? LH? The only one I can think of is possible SAA. Any other suggestions?

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

Since when have airbus dictated how airlines will crew their aircraft.

Obviously for the first half dozen or so they will have to use EK crews (Captains anyway) in order to establish the SOP's and operating culture. Plus i believe that Airbus have indicated that they will only train 340 qualified guys at Toulouse for the first couple of aircraft. Once that is done, and training is in house again, it will be open slather with new hire F/O's (just like it was on the 777 and 330 when they were new) and all the DEC's they can get.

Another point that makes DEC's the obvious choice is the amount of training it saves. If you move a 340 guy over, you will have a 380 transition a 340 CCQ and upgrade on the 330 an F/O transition on the 330 and the 380.

By my calculation that's 5 guys who have to be trained. Direct entries will reduce the training by more than 50%.

Am i the only one here who thinks that EK makes most operational decisions based largely on cost?

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

Only operational decisions? Show me one decision that EK have made in the last 10 years that involved paying a little extra dosh to get a little extra quality. EK = Adequacy at minimum cost.

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

Wonder if anybody in EK management realises what they are creating.
As they erode Ts & Cs and this includes the continuation of the DEC program, they make the company less attractive to both current and prospective employees. The best of these people will either leave or not apply. This is already happening as documented on this site.
In time the quality of the workforce may diminish to the point that few left are upgradable so the company will only be able to fill command slots with DECs.
A case of the worse it gets, the worse it will continue to get and could make the planned expansion unsustainable.
There are only so many BA/CX retirees who will want to come here. Whilst the pilot market is growing EK will soon appear so dire few others will be interested.
In part due to DECs EK is no longer a traditional employer of choice. In time this will work its way up to the consumer and EK will no longer be an airline of choice to the passenger.
Cancellation of flights around 25th December due crew shortages being an example of this.
The other long standing Gulf airline has been brought to its knees by mismanagement. It could happen here.

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

<<Am i the only one here who thinks that EK makes most operational decisions based largely on cost?>>

More than likely.
Fact is, DEC's are nearly ALWAYS the least expensive in the long run, due mainly to training costs.
Is it 'fair' to those (especially co-pilots) already there?
No, not necessarily, but just where is it the regulations/employment contracts does it ever say what is fair...and what is not?

In the case of the 380, I would expect that EK will indeed choose a few of their own, and then mainly hire from outside, as the total flight deck crew numbers will not allow otherwise.
Airlines (and their managements, good or poor) will always make staffing decisions based on what is the most benefical for the company, NOT employees.
Like it or lump it, and I would certainly expect that most at EK will fall into the latter category.

Just the way it is, and not likely to change anytime soon.:zzz:

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

411a's viewpoint of aviation in the Gulf is historical. He assumes that by necessity history should repeat itself.

The start of EK's success coincided with an enlightened Head of Flight Operations determination to turn EK into a world class airline with world class attitudes and standards and move away from the baggage endorsed by his predecessors. Example: no fair seniority system in place until 1995.

These changes gave the company a direction missing until then. This direction is now showing clear signs of losing track as the changes introduced ten years ago are being dismantled with reversion to third world T's and C's and now attracting mainly third world applicants.

No slight to people from the third world intended. Third world background does not always mean third world standards, but you will get the picture.

411a gives the impression that he is from the 'small operator ' school of airline management. He does not see the way or need for change to allow a company to grow to be a world class player. EK is changing now, but back to how it was when it was an 'also ran'.

Small operator mentality only works when there is a carrot such as exceptional salary.

In EK all the carrots are being taken away.

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

Who the F@ck wants to go on the flying pig anyway, hold on for the B747-800 guys, now there's a real aeroplane!

Time to read Flt Int, from the back!

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

just remember the carrot on the stick is being pursued by a donkey...

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

Hahaha that a good one...except that makes me a donkey...
I admit, I would like to fly the A380. Why not? I think a lot of people are being modest and playing it down. Just wait till it shows up next years...

About all that whinning. 4 years ago there were 35 aircraft and 570 pilots. Today there are about 80 aircraft and 1250 pilots. Obviously it is an attractive job for some. It was attractive to all of US, or we wouldnt have come. Things have changed over my four years. But those 15000 USD contracts are not easy to get.

Remember....the grass is only greener on top of a septic tank....

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

You got the green grass bit right for sure...gave up on the carrot on the stick while back, seems never did get the carrot, but sure got the stick!!! :\

Re: EK: Direct Entry Onto A380
 

Dont realy want to know what they did to you with the stick, Ironbutt!

:mad: This is one crazy place.......................

sho' enuff is.....and no u dont want to know what they did with the stick:{

411
Pls get the hell outta here! We don't need your opinions anymore!
Mfan.

411a
 

Pls more and more posts, it´s funny to see all that hysterical reactions!...:{

Ques. for Emirates Pilots about A380 Delivery
 

Emirates pilots , just interested when emirates receives its first A380 delivery. And who gets assigned to these aircraft? Do the senior A340 captains get put on these aircraft?


Will there be a second officer position on the A380 ?

cheers

Yes, for the first year at least
Not impossible, but AFAIK not in the plan yet

I think it can also be 330 only pilots , as the 330 is the base airplane and there are some senior 330 only guys.
Also I think the first 380 comes early in the new year does AUH ,DOH or BAR for @ a month to get the checkers checked

Guys

heard it from a good source that the 1st 10 A380's will crewed by existing Airbus pilots and FATBUS is probably right ...... senoir 330 guys will be able to transition up no probs. After the initail 10...... its open to senior 777 guys.

how many 777 guys not sure but i reckon you can guess.:E

TR:ok:

CCQ should allow an A330 or A340 pilot to fly the A380 with only minimal training.

"CCQ actually allows an A318 pilot to fly an A346 with only a very short conversion course as all modern Airbuses use the same cockpit architecture."

That quote was from Scroggs, a Virgin A340 Captain who I was talking to about whether he flies the A343, the A346, or both. He flies both due to Airbus philosophy/comonality.

As for when the A380 arrives, I'm not sure about EK, but I think Airbus pilots at VS will benefit from mixed-fleet-flying. I.e. they'll be able to fly the A343, A346 and the A38X.

For a 777 pilot, I presume he would have to go through a full type-rating course.

cheers
 

Thanks for the replys guys, this helpled alot

The jets turn up in early 07 and as I understand it will not be CCQ compatible or MFF compatible with earlier types. That decisions was taken so that the cockpit didn't get tied to the older legacy aircraft and could include all the new goodies.

I believe the 380 will be the starting point for a new CCQ family which will include the 350 onwards.

Airbus delays A380 further - EK upgrades??
 

Found the following article...
Seems like EK won't get their A380's before END 2007. Any idea how that looks for the upgrades on Airbus? Looks like EK has another good excuse to delay some more people.

MR8


Airbus A380 hit by new programme delay
By Max Kingsley-Jones in Toulouse

The Airbus A380 is facing another serious programme delay, but first delivery to launch operator Singapore Airlines (SIA) is still expected by the end of the year.

Airbus says the delay has been caused by “production ramp-up problems”. It is not expected to impact certification, which is due in the fourth quarter for the handover of the first aircraft to SIA before year end, but will see deliveries of subsequent aircraft slip by “six to seven months”, says Airbus. The programme has already suffered one six month delay, which was announced a year ago and pushed the delivery of the initial Rolls-Royce Trent 900-powered version to SIA back from April to the end of this year.

Other early customers affected by the new delay include Qantas and the lead Engine Alliance-powered A380 operator Emirates, both of whom were due to take their first aircraft early in the second quarter of 2007.

Airbus says the knock-on effect of the slip will be felt on the delivery schedule for production through 2007, 2008 and 2009.

Revised A380 Delivery Schedule.
 

Word has it first 5 A380's will go to SQ.
Next 4 will go to EK, followed by first deliveries to QF.


First delivery to EK now 09/07 with official Entry into Service planned 01/08.




Keep discovering......





Cheers,



Eldin

Transition is the only reasonable solution. Offered in other first world airlines with proper training and solid canditates, which EK has. The current policy is absurd.

Another year on top of the already 3.5 years !! What a lottery this place turned out to be. :ugh:

Have upgrades been delayed again even further....I hope this time will be used to catch up on the short fall in crew.

TR:ok:

More than likely, Tail Rota, by hiring more DEC's.
This policy is called, keep the complainers in the RHS, where they right and properly belong.

Now, you may not like my suggestion, and I truly expect that you might not, but OTOH, I suspect you are not in management, either.

Many line pilots believe THEY could manage flight ops or training properly (to say nothing of recruitment), but past experience with several other carriers has proven this idea to be quite the opposite.
Co-pilots especially believe they 'have seen it all' or, 'know it all' but this also has usually proved to be highly unlikely.

Co-pilots are there to do as they are told...possible safety of flight issues excepted.

EK management apparently has come to know this quite well, so the present policies are unlikely to change in the near term.

As the world turns...:rolleyes:

maybe they wouldnt be complainers if there were some rational reason for the DEC's..but in the case of EK there doesnt seem to be...some of my colleagues are headed there...hope they enjoy themselves...:hmm:

411A ,.
they don't call them co-pilots anymore old buddy
if anything it will give EK some breathing room, the FO's that were delayed have been move up to Jul

Hi Fatbus...

small post but very big news.:ok: ....I hope you are correct. I have been trying to make sense of it all and its great news for the boys if they are back on course.

Personaly I was relaxed about the whole issue as it seems to change weekly around here ....and at the end of the day what can we do about it ....... I dont want cancer :bored:


411A.....you are correct mate....I didnt like what you had to say about the other resource in the right hand seat.....but I beg to differ .....as it has been my experience ......and may I add....limited experience in the right hand seat with EK .......that we are there to ensure passenger saftey, and save a very few, from having file ASR's on yourself.


I have seen a couple of very unusual practices while sitting in the right , minding my own business as you put it.......I have had to speak out more than one time below 1500ft agl, to get the co pilot in the left hand seat to correct his trajectory.:}

EK apperas to be upgrading at the 3 to 3 1/2 year mark......now this is based on the infomation I have from guys I am flying with, who have recently been upgraded since last year. as well as the guys I have supported in the sim, while completeting the upgrade lofts etc.....

everyone has been 3 to 3 1/2 yrs.........some 777 guys have been checked 3 yrs to day of joining EK.......how do I know this.......they are personal friends of mine and recently checked:cool:

I have always said....... the DEC's are a nesessary evil at EK, and will be for the perceived future ....but its not to keep the complainers hidden inthe right hand seat ....its to simply crew planes......I hope you are wrong 411a.........and only time will tell.

In all the caos......fly safe!

The forever doomed Co Pilot TR :ok:

Well actually 411a, they can't get enough DEC's, no matter what Ed trys to tell us, they are having to promote some whining co-pilots as you put it, onto the 777, as Capts because their policy is totally flawed!
Actually the policy has not been changed, they don't want him at the top to lose face!

This latest move has only pissed off the Airbus guys due to be promoted (seniority whatever that means at EK) even more. its called crisis management, nothing more.

EGGW

EK: Plastic Pig Delays - Implications
 

With the announcement that the A380 "Plastic Pig" has been put back even further, what implications for EK?

Some possibilities:

1. EK takes the A340-600 (that was previously looking very doubtful), due to lack of capacity that the plastic piggy was planned to provide (good news for AB F/Os).
2. Temporary CPA remains in position for reasons that are apparent...and not so apparent.
3. Airboos pays through the nose for the delays.
4. An imminent order for B787s to spite Airboos.

Interesting to speculate on what the other carriers who ordered the piggy will do.

One thing about 411a's posts intrigues me. How many Americans from Arizona call an "airplane" an aeroplane, as he does? Is he a transplanted Brit?

Certainly not many, Andu, but I try to accomodate many of the posters here who would not otherwise understand the use of ah....American terms.

Besides...it fits in with 'aerodrome':rolleyes: :}

On another subject, it appears to me that what EK desperately needs is an audit from an outside source, as apparently, considering the many posts here that indicate big trouble ahead, the future surely looks to be quite unmanageable in the near term, what with all the 'problems' in the flt ops department.
Will this occur?
Hardly likely, as those in flt ops management are trying desperately to cover their collective behinds...at any cost.
This, as has been proven on MANY occasions at other carriers, is a lost proposition, from the start.
Will those in flt ops management wake up?
Don't hold your breath...!

EK 380`s ??????? Welcome 747-800!!
 

Fresh from the cave!
For the first time we`ve heard EK saying that is considering cancelling the entire 380`s order if the new delay is to put Ek more than 12 months behind Singapore first acft delivery.
On the other hand, 20 747-800`s freighters are to be announced soon and will be operated with Ek pilots and not Atlas anymore.
Well...seems to be interesting times ahead!!

I was about to type "20 747-8Fs - isn't that a bit excessive?", when I thought - hey, this is Emirates! That said, given that they only have a handful of wetleased 744Fs, it does seem quite a jump.

Whatever about the freighters, I'd think an announcement like this would be designed to put the frighteners under Airbus.

If they were to get 747-8Fs, wouldn't they get pax models as well; I don't know what has been proposed about the 747-8 cockpit, but I'd assume that it would have a significant amount of commonality with the 777, which would make conversion between the types relatively easy.

Although EK is apparently waiting for the A370 next month, given its overall annoyance at Airbus, is there any tiny chance that EK would choose the A370over the 787-10? Doubtful, I'd say.

what drugs are you two on:E honestly...your shisha pipe must have had a little extra flavouring boys......good try though:cool:

Airbus will be absolutely desperate to try and keep EK inside their front door.

Emirates is well known for screwing the last cent out of every dollar - they have no real interest in the A380 as a "nice" aircraft. It's only there to generate a profit.

Behind the scenes, I would imagine that Airbus is offering A340 600's at COMPLETELY knock down prices (and probably with Airbus wearing all the maintenance) to try and save the situation. This will suit EK down to the ground - they will end up with an interim aircraft that costs them a lot lot less than what the 380's would have done.

EK is laughing all the way to the bank, whichever way it goes. :D