Etihad upgrades are on A320
 

"As part of a longer term strategy the A320 fleet has been selected as general base model for direct internal command courses.This rule applies for command courses starting in May 2008".
"Herewith Etihad follows general best practice of the major carriers of the world and will be able to cover the steady demand on the rapidly growing A320 fleet.
In any case internal upgrades should have priority over the hiring of direct entry captains whenever possible." VPFO( Acting ) ...:D:D:D:D

Very nice.....BUT
What about the salary... there is a significant diference A330 and A320 Captains. And no way to compare 340/320... It is not so exiting go for comand and get only 2000 more as a 330/340 FO, or even less in a good month(overtime month) . They have to fix that !!!:sad:, AVPO say now we are doing like an a Big Carrier,well pay as a Big carrier as well.....will see.

This is obviously EYs way of filling the expanding A320 operation pilot seats internally and avoiding DEC. Highly preferable I would think. Hopefully a short term solution.

From the EY employment website the starting base salaries for A320 and A330/340 FOs are the same at AED 24500 plus AED 40 per flying hour. The base salary for A320 Command is AED 33000 plus AED 50 per hour.. No mention of A330/340 Command base pay.

My understanding is that the base salaries for each rank are the same irrespective of aircraft type. So what am I missing here? Other than overtime calculations or ULA vs LH vs short haul flying and overnight allowance income what's the major difference to income? What have I missed?

If it's extra income due to overtime then I can understand that difference but overtime is not always guaranteed and dependent on many factors. Most airline bean counters will find a balance between min crew employed and amount of extra hours flown per crew per month (overtime). It is not unheard of short haul operations flying max hours per month (hence big overtime) during periods of insufficient crews and expanding schedules.

Granted you are flying more sectors and going to work more times per week than a long haul pilot but you do get to spend more time at home.

Ahhh, well, whatever. If they upgrade me now I will never say NO. I don't care if it's A320. After a year or so you'll be CCQ'd you to the bigger buses anyway.

So, count me in! Raise the roof guys! :p

industry norm.
 

Well said Mr Frodo,

Never turn down an airline Jet Command. Everyone will get onto the A330/340 at some stage, so hang in there.

Most airlines with a varied fleet upgrade on the smaller a/c first and then there is a natural progression to the bigger stuff.

Gotta be beter than DEC's

Whats the allowance like at EY when u fly say 70 hours a month ?
A330 capt get basic 33000 (70 hours =3500) =36500 + ns allowance?? whats the average ns allowance u getting each month for capt?

Totally Agree 35E, that is what is coming . It is hard to believe mix fleet 320 330:=. I dont think is good idea, 320 and 330 are Differents.
And also for BUSDRIVER...it is REAl now a 330 340 FO earn More than a 320 Cap. This is a matter of fact.
Agree, UPGRADE is nice but....the families live with money no with 4 strips....:sad:

mr jet lag - beleave is actually spelled believe. and differents? man, from where did you learn your english?

anyway, i'm not actually much into spellings and grammars but i do get your point. and as a matter of factly, your statement about pay and upgrades is not actually correct.

330/340 and 320 captain's basic are the same. overtime plus layover allowance in ULRs, yes, they do make a difference. widebody jocks do get some extra but as you say, upgrade is upgrade. but what the heck, i've done ULRs already as FO and enjoyed the layovers, but if the company decides to make all internal upgrades now in the 320 fleet, and they offer you left seat, would you not accept it? tell me, what would you do? are you gonna wait it out as EY widebody FO for the next 3 yrs or are you gonna quit and look somewhere else for a company that can give you widebody upgrade, even if you have to wait for 5, 6, 7 or 10 years? nah, i don't think you'd have the patience to do that. and worst case scenario is if you keep moving from one company to another you might get stuck as FO for the rest of your career. so let's just study our books man, and get our upgrade here in EY. once you get the bars, then it's up to you if you want to wait to be CCQd or move somewhere else.

zorry for me englich but i was writing bery fazt.
I learn englich heere in pprun.:rolleyes: Would you like to be my teacher???

Agree. Command is Command And I would never say no. But Again why, always the small one get less...

If you want Comand you better start spelling it right mate:ok:

Command

Strange though. You need 1000 hours more to upgrade at EY than you need as a DEC.

Relief

Do you have a doubt in the quality of training on the A320 or just the whole of EY? It Seem that you are not happy about the quality of training that the cadet’s will be receiving from the same department that do/will be upgrading everyone else!!!:suspect:

Just to remind you, once a pilot cleared on line flying it means that he has satisfied all the requirements to do so. As stated earlier we pilots fly cockpits, size doesn’t matter on this one… :{

ha ha ha !! DO you think that 500 hrs + line training makes a new copilot
READY... no way. I was not few years ago. By the way I did not come from a low cost.
Let s see the results of the cadet program.

You guys are killing me with the english tests :D I did need a laugh this afternoon and it was provided. I probably have the worst spelling of everyone on this forum and I was born and raised in the states.

A320plt
 

Good Joke. Who cares a kucf about spelling? I can not understand what the person in the LHS is saying - apart from the fact He says - I earn FIVE TIMES MORE THAN YOU

That screams volumes doesn't it??

Hey Guys...please FOCUS... F/O get(earn,make,do or whatever) more MONEY( salary,Euros,Dollars...) than a A320 Cap. And the Company must to do something abou it. You can say many things about laws and payment system but you still get less pay.
About spelling...I don't care. Many of us speak languages 10 times better or more complicate than the F:mad: English.So what's the matter.
HALAZ !!!! Because of some Perfect English speakers we have Problems like unfair salaries,Rosters and Housing. Upsss I forgot REPORTING CULTURE. that's all folks:ok:

CCQ for Upgrade
 

Hey guys ,
OM-A Chapter 5.1.3.1.

Cross Fleet Upgrades to another aircraft type That has COMMAND VACANCIES will be available to all suitable FO.
Is this the Case of the A-320 (command Vacancies .) If so, Why will they CCQ on A-330 for later Upgrade on 330 instead of CCQ for upgrade to 320.

Airbus guys came for the WB and the money expectations .
What else would you have left home for .
They are creating a get Command and Leave atmosphere .
Will this help a company with expectations to Grow . Having people cominmg in and leaving the next day !

Like someone said , Into the books for the command and i didnt really think i would have to brush up the CV that fast.


Fly safely,:ok:

Dear Relief

Thanks for your very assertive point.
DEC should have at list the minimun Req. that the EY F/O need to have to be Upgraded.
It is weird to have Dec with really minimun Exp. They come from Low Cost or new companies, who knows what kind of Stdrs they have....:confused:
So it is really easy to get piss....well keep the faith.

Relief

I don't know where you are getting your info re fleet numbers from, but there are 2 A340-600s arriving (late) this year and 2 A330 in early next year.

Where you got 13 from beats me...?

A320s - well that's anyones guess.....

An A320 is big compared to this little thing .Enjoy the command on the "big A320" then.

Relief

I think you need a hug mate ;) from what I know all DEC on the A320 so far have more AIRBUS hours than the 5500 mentioned, I came across 4 of them who are current on A320 & A330 from GF as they were CCQ'd (both seats as well). The B777 will be recruiting F/O’s then move them to airbus as they approach command easily me hope :E The money issue is the big one and we will all have a round at captain’s arm on May 13th.:ok:

Airpilot_A3xx

Listen mate. You are the living example of what is happening to Etihad.

You came from Gulf Air as a DEC and within a few months you are trying to sc:mad: everyone. No wonder why you are so happy with the new policy. What really upset me is the way you are using Pprune. At your GF times some were using Pprune to balance the negative comments and to cover up what management was doing. That’s why everyone knows who you are. How else would you get promoted if management didn’t knew who you are and what you post? How else would you come here? Well guess what mate? This is not GF and certainly Abu Dhabi is not Bahrain. Coming here just to s:mad: your colleagues is a no no. Your friends might be living soon and then you will be left alone you know. The short history of EY has shown many times that what goes around comes around.

The question about the B777 was who is going to fly the B777 from the LEFT seat whenever there are vacancies from resignations, retirements, additional aircrafts etc. And since you are ex GF then tell us what the GulfAir upgrade requirements for the A320 are. Why EY requirements have to be so high compare with Gulf Air and other Airlines.

Enjoy captain’s arm on May 13th.


BCF Brief

The number comes from the latest Paris Air show order. I don’t have access to the delivery schedule as we are not kept in the loop. What I know is from what was sent to us which is a copy of what was sent to the newspapers at that time. As you said deliveries will start later this year and I presume that deliveries will continue next year maybe also the year after and so on. The first A319 has arrived with a second one following very soon. There are rumors that we are getting 2 more A320 but then again who know.

:ouch: you hurt my feelings Relief... keep it on the green dude :ok:

Aggree !!!!

The only comment I could make on this, is that the ball is already in our management's hands, and long time ago.

Nothing should change for better, it never did.

Expect worse and you won't be disappointed.

Chinese airlines added 1 more month salary yearly.... slowly coming up.....

A346Driver

You wrote:
“Forgive me but I fail to see the argument behind command directly on a widebody when the airline now has a narrow body fleet. The natural course of progression is F/O widebody, Command narrow body then promotion to Command widebody. Its how its been done for years all over the world and for a good reason.”

You fail to see because you don’t want to see or you haven’t got the ability to see. Airlines who operate only wide bodies like Emirates, Singapore, Cathay, Virgin Atlantic etc give wide body Command as a natural progress. Others do it more or less as per the natural course of progression that you descript but this is not what we do. What we do is that we upgrade our FOs on the A320 and at same time we are getting more DECs on the wide bodies. What we do we get direct FOs on the wide bodies while our A320 FOs are waiting for the promised MFF to happen. What we did last summer is that we stopped upgrading because we were to busy training non type rated DECs and DE FOs on wide bodies.



“I know of no DEC's (including myself) who came to EY with the minimum hour requirements. The minimums are there to satisfy insurance requirements but that certainly does not mean that EY employ DEC's with those minimums. My total time is over 15,000 with more than 6000 PIC on A340 and no DEC on my course was below 10,000.”

You must be happy that your hours got you a DEC position with EY. However this is not how it works with Airlines that claim to use Best Practices. By what you say we should get Pilots with thousands of hours to replace all of us. Then we would find one with 15500 hours to replace you and then you can go and jump on top of BA seniority and fly the A380 from the left seat.



“Gentlemen Command is Command, be it on A320, A330 or B777. To be able to get an upgrade withing 3 years is a marvel and something you should not frown upon (and yes I do understand that most F/O's came with heaps of experience to EY, I just dont understand why you dont extend the same courtesy to the guy on your left) . I've been flying 23 years and saw my first jet command 13 years ago. Please do the math.”

Big empty words. Most of EY FOs have been waiting as much as you did. Some they have been FOs for as much as your entire career. Some of them came here because they were promised an early wide body command. These FOs did not start their flying career 3 years ago.



“My intetion is not to show any disrespect to any of my peers but I certainly expect the same treatment. To generalize and say that DEC's have no standards and come from low costs is simply utter rubish. If this is the case I suggest you report each and every case to the safety department. You have valid salary arguments with the airline but knocking your colleagues is not really going to get you anywhere.”

I don’t know to whom you are referring to but if you think that loco airlines like Easyjet, Jetblue and Southwest have no standards then you know nothing about aviation. Easyjet standards in particular are second to no one. I don’t know anyone who left those loco airlines to join EY and I don’t see why they should. Do you?

Relief, thanks for the detailed reply. You are right that airlines like Singapore, Virgin Atlantic and Cathay upgrade on wide body aircraft, but that is because they do not have anything else. We now do and what are we supposed to do with the A320? The natural progression is now for EY to upgrade on the A320 then as you guys gain time in the left seat promote you to the bigger aircraft.

I think I mentioned that already when I clearly acknowledged that most guys have heaps of experience. Still in aviation sadly it's pot luck, if you're in the right place at the right time you get lucky, others wait for ever. But that doesnt mean that a Command on an A320 is any less than a Command on an A330 mate.

In closing I would really like to wish you and all the other guys all the best. I have no gripe with you, I'm just trying to say that there is nothing wrong with a Command on the A320. Look forward to it, it's a new rating and frankly a very popular one that can nowadays land you any job you like.

Cheers

EY346Driver,

Very well said! Cheers! :ok:

I agree too, 346Driver.

Sadly here there is a blurred line between salary and allowances. A320 drivers may well not earn the allowances, but then dont thave the down route expenses either! The allowances are only supposed to be reimbursements for expenses, therefore not so applicable in 'take home' salary comparisons...?

Please dont shoot me down, I am just trying to apply some logic. Or am I barking?

Don't get me wrong, to me it's just a matter of what has been promised in the interview process.

People have chosen to leave a decent job, for most of them, with command propsectives and REAL seniority lists and rules, to come in EY to get a widebody command within 2 to 3 years, AS IT WAS PROMISED IN THE INTERVIEWS .


Now, you tell them you will get command on an A320,on which they could have had command in their previous airline,and most probably earlier and in better conditions........... What do you expect ??????

For the guys who are joining now, or think about joining,that's the best lesson ever : That can happen again and for worse, so :

GO EK !!!!! and get 14 weeks basic salary bonus !!!!!

And a proper accomodation !!!!!

And a pension fund !!!!

And a proper medical insurance !!!!!

And currency exchange rate protection !!!!!!

And crew transportation !!!!!

etc......

Sorry buddy , but logic does not really apply here.
its a personal choice and even if you do have expenses ,tell me, do you really spend it all .

So what is left you take home . This Makes a great difference on a yearly basis.

Command is Comand that is correct but most of us traded 1 year wait at home for 2 year to upgrade on W/B.

Nobody has been able to say why the 777 guys get to CCQ to 330 for their command and not the 320.

Do they all have previous bus experience .


Can you trade a bus F/O with over 5 years exp.( for command on 330 with a 777 F/O with 6 months RH seat .

Where does LOGIC APPLY ?

Its true you have to be at the right place at the right time .

I believe we all were a matter of years ago and believed what we were told and took the decision to come . .

Has GCAA approved the Mixed Fleet 320/330 .

These are issues that may calm the waters and create some expectations towards a better career option .

Safe flying :ok:

YES ALGHAZAL ,

I have to agree with you .

Guys its a better option to look else where ,not only for your career but your lifestyle .

HOUSING not enough and not what you expect .
UPGRADES , not on what was offered W/B .
SALARY , not enough Cost of living rising.

Well said jet-lag I agree with you. Pay certainly has to be addressed as our do our T&C.

Pay increments to meet inflation
Housing
Schooling
Real Firm leave tickets
Pension Plan

Alghazal you do have a point about promises made at the interview but still I feel the upgrade schedule is more important than the actual fleet of upgrade. In other words they should not compromise the rate of upgrades with DEC's. DEC's like myself should only cover excess command requirements that command upgrades cannot cover.

I just hope that our management does not make empty promises about the MFF 320/330 because that will have a very negative effect.

I'm sure other professions like doctors ans lawyers have forums like this to cry and wine all day long..........pilots really are pathethic.......stop embarrassing me.......but then wadefac :{

EY346Driver


“In closing I would really like to wish you and all the other guys all the best. I have no gripe with you, I'm just trying to say that there is nothing wrong with a Command on the A320. Look forward to it, it's a new rating and frankly a very popular one that can nowadays land you any job you like.”
I wish I could accept your wishes but then again…
…What if I already have the rating? What if I was already a Captain on the A320 or any other narrow body jet before I joint EY. What if I have chosen EY based on what was promised and on what was on offer at that time. Maybe I did not join as a Captain simply because I did not met the requirements for a wide body DEC at that time. You see is not that simple.



“DEC's like myself should only cover excess command requirements that command upgrades cannot cover.”


For once we both agree on something. Unfortunately once again there are ZERO (0) upgrades for May while DECs are still arriving in big numbers. Our training department is very busy clearing DECs instead of upgrading FOs. Mind you this is applicable to all fleets including the 320.

Relief do you get any "relief" taking out your frustration on me? I sure hope so mate.

Let me understand your logic here. You dont like DEC's, fine, you have every right to, but that really means that when you get your upgrade in EY you will stay till retirement. Because according to your beliefs you must not go elsewhere as a DEC and take (according to you) someones upgrade.

If you left an A320 command for an A330 f/o position then you need to take a close look at your thought process (to put it very lightly)

Grow up mate, stop your bitching and whinning and get on with it.

No Upgrades in May??
 

No upgrades in May?? Well that is not true. They are upgrading the boeing boys and yes, it's 330 for them.

Boeing Man.....

THERE WAS NO UPGRADES ON MAY !!!!

They Just finish Command course from the last month.