Well when you ain't got the resource you create it. There will be no planes grounded, just overworked and underpaid pilots around here. Will get better and better with time!

Anybody think this has less to do with disparity in the top/bottom bids, and more to do with the disparity in the training vs line pilot roster? This may stop guys from leaving training to enjoy day off strings and may even entice some to join since they are getting a crap roster anyway. Sounds like one of EK managements think outside the box "cost neutral" solutions...

Whatever their motivation, this is a bad idea and will haunt them far worse and longer than their previous cost neutral forays.

Have to go and prepare my CV.

Heard they want to pay more to new joiners without paying the rest of the crews....

Answer.......... put the initial furnishing allowance up to 100K DHS and give em an empty villa. Of course must stay 3 years or pay it back pro- rata.:{

One consistency about this ruling.

Every pilot appears to see it as an ill conceived and poorly implemented alteration to our rostering. Does anyone support this venture?

There will be an impact; sickness, unavailability on days off, resignations, reduced uptake of contract offers. Of course it won't be identified as a tangible connection by the 9th floor.

Cost neutral, not a chance. Shame that everyone has to lose though.

To the management
 

TO THE MANAGEMENT

When I first joined Emirates,it was one of the happiest moments of my life.However yesterday I felt that the airline I was so proud to be part off,let me and many of my fellow colleagues down.
I ask off you not to go through this MONSTROUS CRS bidding change just because some bureaucratic a:mad:le wants to win the golden najm award.Because this is what this is about-not safety or equal flying hours as you say.Its NOTHING to do with productivity!
We all look forward to our top bid months,especially during the summer months,where we can bid for days off and visit our home countries.And we know that when we are bottom bid we have to fly.It has been a fair and accepted system for some time now.
I dont understand your reasoning:We CAN be productive with the existing system-somebody can fly 2 JFK'S and 2 LHR'S(thats 87hrs aprx)and CAN get his string of days off.I dont see WHY this is a problem!
An office guy does not have to fly in a cylinder can for 15hrs at North 80 and different time zones which make you forget your own name and date at the end of the month.We NEED the days off-HE/SHE DOESNT!!!
Emirates is the best airline to work for-DONT make it the worst!
Many of my friends have been very interested in joining EK,UNTIL YESTERDAY.They are awaiting for your actions,as many of us are,to decide.
I believe that if you implement your suggestions it will have a disastrous effect on the lifes of the flight deck crew and their families and eventually on the company itself.
If you need to attract more people,dont be stingy-GIVE and they will come.
I do hope that you will reason and listen to all of us who are asking you not to go through with this.(everybody,please send an email to management through the crew portal expressing your thoughts).

Regards

Unipilot are you two years old or what?

Another "life-quality deteriorating" decision. One aim, yes, productivity.

Other airlines may use the same tactics, but, if you're based close to your home land, 4 or 5 days off is enough to go home and get re-sourced. But when you live far away, this is a major blow.

CRS Adopt was designed to function adequately when opposed and limited by a pilot's union.

When left in the hands of uncontrolled managment, it could cause serious harm or even death by fatigue to the users. Do not operate heavy machinery when under it's uncontrolled influence.

Will this management style always be rewarded here?

When are we gonna see at least a sign of REAL improvement?

Unipilot, I understand what you mean...keep posting.

ekpilot

It's his post, leave him be :hmm:

Try directing your anger to the peolpe who caused it :(

Fellas, I have to say I agree with most of the posts here. The thing is it aint gonna do sh!t in helping out our situation. We have no way of putting any kind of real pressure on the "team" short of quiting or attempting to disuade future applicants from joining.

How about we try and come up with ways of putting real and tangible monetary pressure on the talking horse and the rest of those greedy jokers. The only way they will change is if it costs them huge money. By huge I mean 100's of millions. They have to be made to understand that without us they can not make any money. Anything short of that can and will be "managed" by the guys who make the big bucks.

7

What you guys need to do, is form a virtual union. I know unions are not allowed in the UAE, however something could be formed here or elsewhere on the net and "collective idea's" put forth. Just be careful. My former employer gave us a hard time on this, many years back. Fly by the book, carry extra gas, fly fast, lower the gear early, fly off optimum altitude and on. There must be some Aussie's and Yank's there with Union experience. Down line sick or fatigue calls could kill an operation. Everyone must grow a set and participate so that no prisoners are taken

Jammin' pprune!
 

Well this management email certainly generated some pprune traffic!!! - only saw this many posts when the BA 777 punched in!!

Once again many theories about the logic of this action - most probably some basis in fact for all.

Unfortunately many of you have not had your work ethic tested enough obviously...!

I will reserve my judgment as to how this will work out - I suspect not in any way that relates to the stated objectives by Ed.

But hey, all ya have to do to get plenty of time off is hurt your self kite surfing, riding motorbikes or knock ya self out playing football. The clinic are excellent at giving time off!

The Cathay/Dragonair guys discovered this thing called 'affected syndrome'

Apparently works a treat...

Don't like the roster? - Adjust it using any means you are happy with. It's the Company's 'flight plan' - not the 'post flight report'!

Can't put any positive spin on it but the earlier comment that nothing was done after in excess of 50 ASRs on the Perth curtains - which continue to go on....and the use of a seat to gain rest etc... but we all know that safety and standards has no influence on decisions made in higher management.

Otherwise we wouldn't be doing stupid Peleysis and leadership courses that teach nothing but how to press a mouse button!

But they all come and go...and not many leave with a legacy of having made any improvement for the Company's real bottom line.

Rather than throw this at us why not ask us if we are happy with the way things are reference CRS and rostering via some form of constructive and consultative process...... hmmm sounds like democracy .... cant be having that now..!

Really feel sorry for the guys looking to come over here.

It's a shame that the mere mention of the word 'basings' would solve ALL of EKs current and future manning requirements.. panacea - maybe!

maybe email ed with the phrase 'basings ' in the subject line - no body and see what happens?

woodja.

Ladies 'n Gents

The consequences a this are not apparent to fleet manglement, nor the senior partners, but it's devastatin' to morale in way that is more severe 'n any fatigue... :bored:

The audacity of this lie staggers ma mind. I been sucker punched before but this is real dirty...

Just readin' the memo made me feel like I'd just got back from a GRU... it's just so deflatin'...

The foundation of this is a manpower shortage, and it's compounded by a certain person who can't stan' tha sight of a block with 16 days off... mean spirited, petty and envious, this 'farkin-over' in the guise of concern has just cost this company more than he can imagine.

PPPpppSSSsss...

hear that Adel, Alan, Ed, Patricia, and Jim?

That's the sound of morale, good will an' any form a belief in you folks just leakin' out onta the sand.

Way ta go ya dummies. Ya shure 'fixed' it this time! :D

k-o-t-s

For all those EK wanabees west of 40W, this basically means you guys won't be able to go home on days off.... stuck in the gulf!!! or maybe stick the golf club in the btt... :ouch:

Enough!!
 

Been reading without posting for a couple of years now, and i must say this last stunt performed by the "management" is one of the most stupidest moves i've ever seen!!

Messing with our only "lifeline" to the real world outside was a big mistake! Days off, layovers and vacationplanning in the 2 top grps is probably the #1 thing that keeps ppl here. And now its gone.

Its cooking and boiling out on the lines now. This is not going to be forgotten. Guess the "management" didn't realize the impact of their "latest improvment". If they found it hard to keep pilots here and get new pilots coming before, guesswhat - this wont help!

Forming a web-based union??? Nice idea!! Where do i sign?? (Not on a asr or vr anyway, it never helps!)

Enough!!

No Problem - Sir!?
 

Just looked at the Seniority List. Conventional wisdom is a need for 500-600 additional bodies required in '08. The net increase for January '08 was 25. 50-60% of the month-on-month target.

As usual nobody is telling the truth. From the guy pumping gas all the way up to VP's at EK nobody in Dubai is willing to say that they made a mistake at work. History has shown that fear (job loss, villa loss, kid's school loss, company car loss, deportation home to what?) is an effective short term management tool but has always had calamitous long term results.

Given the fact that they may be 250-300 short at year end '08 I tend to believe that 1000 hours and factoring for operating crews will be back.

BTW where is Ed's other letter? Last year we got early notification of the amended package. This year ---- silence. I am anticipating that it will be underwhelming otherwise they would publish it early in order to aid recruiting which is, I believe, the real problem here.

Scaglietti

What about a class action lawsuit from some country where we fly to. If we had a thousand unidentified pilots suing because of the shortfall in contractural leave, we would probably be mentioned in a few newpapers.

7

Don't pin your hopes on a large pay rise. If people aren't leaving then there's no reason to splash the cash.

Revised estimates for 2008 is nearer 400 Pilots than the 550 earlier forcast but with the ERP shambles and the bid system now buggered, the nexy 12 months will be very interesting. It is simply supply and demand and the Company is still winning on that front. Just!

I just hope that everyone who's taken the time to moan here has spent equal time writing to their respective fleet managers.

BYMONEK

P.s TangoUniform. You've been dusting off that CV of yours for the last 3 years mate. Actions speak louder than words.

We need 550.

We won't get 550 either through the door or the training system hence the revised estimate of 400 forced on the company due to lack of planning/foresight/expertise.

400 can only be achieved by increasing the workload (if that's possible) and f**king around with the rosters/bidding.

I'm surprised that no one has figured out just how brilliant this move is. In one fell swoop they have solved the training load issue (fewer pilots to train - no more shortage of trainers) and the manning issue (more productivity). I'm sure that the architects of this latest fiasco are already counting their bonus money.

As a large portion of EK pilots have been here a relatively short time, there are a few things they need to understand. This company cannot leave well enough alone. Just when you think that you have found some kind of accommodation living in Dubai, working the fatiguing rosters, dealing with the traffic, the company turns around and f:mad:ks with you. It may not be the straw that breaks your camels back by itself but it pisses you off. Fast forward and you again come to terms with living and working here - you think that things are bearable and lo and behold, here they come again. Spend enough time here and the cumulative effect is to produce one of those whinging old timers that so annoy some of our newer members. ("If you don't like it - leave.") Well, congratulations, you have just been f:mad:ed with.

As far as virtual unions, work to rule and WOE's go, good luck. The only thing that the company will respond to is pilots not showing up and pilots leaving and don't be surprised if you find yourself training a new hire who makes more than you - they've done it before. In a place where unions are outlawed and where the labor laws exist only to reinforce the skewed playing field of employer/employee relations, there is some truth to the admonition above. The minute TC and AAR get the slightest inkling of any type of organized effort, they'll be flying extra sections just to take out the deportees.

ZERO cooperation is the way forward. Nothing other than what is absolutely necessary.

Why come here when...
 

Gulf businesses face a tough year ahead trying to retain staff, with more than two-thirds of employees indicating they are more likely to leave their job this year than in 2007, the ArabianBusiness.com Salary Survey has revealed.

http://www.arabianbusiness.com/51080...quit-job?ln=en

I have found that sometimes the company makes an error with the cost index on the flightplan, as sometimes the flight time might be longer than the block. I try my best to fix this by adding the fuel and and going faster. So when they make an error with my roster, and dont give the days off required, I also try and help out by dailing #2. :E If they didnt want you to take those sick days they would pay you for them at the end of the year.
Help them help us.

Don

donpiez,

re your post... all I can say is :ok: :ok: :E

* Cost indices
* Fuel decisions
* Early descents
* Flight Levels
* Discretion
* Sick days
* ASRs
* WORKING DAYS OFF!!!

All weapons in the arsenal (excuse the pun).

EK is at critical mass and we need a change at the top (above pay scale of TCAS and Ed) both in terms of management and attitude... that means TCTC and TCAAR.

We can cost the company far more than they can ever save by their ill-conceived, draconian measures implemented to mitigate their incredible incompetence. Sadly it is only going to get worse as they have created a situation that will only increase attrition rates and make people think more carefully about joining... people who may now heed the warnings given here about the way they will get treated once the spin of recruitment stops and EK reality sets in.

Why are they putting us so far offside when it is in all of our interests to be onside? :ugh:

Fuggin muppets. Was at the clinic the other day, Doc says that fatigue is way up and sickness very high as well. I suppose this latest intervention into our lives will really help (Not). A holes.

SyB

Well just done another 35 day rsv and did sweet F A .Even rang them cause I got so bored of standby but hey no flights going.Now 2nd to bottom and got 3 rostered flights. So all this S.H.1.T about balanced days off is utter crap.The flyings being done so whats the problem.And as for safety ...please Ed spare us with that crap.
They have lost the plot and AAR just can't get his fan belts round the fact that he only gets 2 days off in a row.
Feel fatigued already!!! and the * button on my phone will get plenty of use....:*

LR3: Answer to your question is, it must be the same pilots who voted in favour of the reserve month ....... all go by the name of Harvey and have long ears.

As for the recruting, same here. I am quite disappointed that one of my best buddies just pulls the same stunt, allthough I fully understand. (The recruitement departement should be outsourced to Emirates Holidays, as they mostly provide annual leave with accomodation for non EK employees).
It's interesting to observe that it is not necessarily the last rostering scam that put newbees off. It is the now public discrepancy between what is beeing propagated from recruitement and what is delivered by the managers.
This will have a huge longterm impact because the worst you can do in hr-management, is deliberately lying. If T&Cs become a cynical tool to compensate for incompetence and arrogance (not to mention the r-word), the war is declared.
Being confronted with a strong nomenklatura, it leaves the individual just to protect himself from damage of the repression.
Some possibilites have already been mentioned.

Wooah Mr Ed....what are you doing?

As a practising Seagull yourself, you must realise we don't need more stones to get us airborne?

As much as I agree with nearly all of the posts here, we Pilot's are our own worst enemies; from being employed on a personal contract (TCAS's buddies), to working days off cos' we can dump a flight as a favour, or just simply taking it up the proverbial without complaint, we agree to more sh!t becuase it serves us in the short term to do so. Job security, career and not rocking the boat means we'll succumb to whatever is thrown at us. "Roll over and tickle my tummy with your sh!tty boots please"

It's been happening for years and it won't change. And I'm truly sorry to say so :(

Had my finger poised to hit "Submit" on the app.

Not so fast... :cool: TC

Dont think Ill bother either.Already got the contract, make a nice souvenir:sad:

"Have you ever noticed how the bigger the lie the longer the :}explanation???"

I believe E.D. has been reading Joseph Goebbels' diaries lately. JG also used to tell big lies to get his messages through. :}

checcker10,

You either have friends in high places or maybe you're a Boeing man.

'Bus buddies are working their a$$es off and being told by crewing they are short of crew cover :uhoh:

Sound familiar :{

Ho ho ho... when the !!!!! hits the fan....

It will be very interesting to see what happens with our rosters the coming months. I personally think that for guys with lower seniority this might not be not such a bad thing after all....maybe...maybe not... I d give it some time...

Lets be honest guys... when you signed your contract you knew what you were getting into. For those who are just waking up : welcome to the M-E....
I read in another post that EK is currently recruiting in Northern Africa.:eek: Well I'm pretty sure they don't give a damn if you are unhappy and you want to resign. Plenty of guys around in that part of the world who would like to take over your job and get a HUUUGE payrise....

It will be very very interesting to see what they do with this years' profit share. More surprises on the way???

How many days off does the top bid group average with the current roster system?
Also, are only the min days off (9?) awarded to the lower group or are some pilots awarded more (no less than the min but possibly more?)

I have an interview upcoming. Just wondering what a typical month looks like for a junior guy? Also wondering what a typical trip looks like, 2 days..3days...4days?

The changes being implimented by management are not good for morale thats for sure but at the end of the day vote with your feet.
V Australia will be in DXB in the next week or so doing interviews.
Kingfisher Airlines are doing road shows www.flykingfisher.com/expatpilotroadshow/
offering the best compensation package in the industry and commuting options. Do your rearch and there are some good deals out there

Junior/Senior, no difference under the rotational bid system.

Top bid could get 18 days off, but THAT was because you were flying ULH flights to do the hours and NEEDED the days off to recover. Just like EVERY other long haul operator.

Next month, top bid will get 14 days max. Even doing those ridiculous IAH turns, sorry layovers. Kinda hard to differentiate. So, a guy hitting the hours on ULH flying (because he bid for them) will have less recovery time. But that's ok, as Ed said he had an obligation to the regulator to balance the load so we were safe and all that. Cutting days off while flying ULH really helps.

Now I get it, you wont stand a chance of getting a month of ULH in top bid. You might get one ULH but will need some really unproductive flying to make sure you don't get more than 14 days off. Like CGK 72 hours or regional back of the clock stuff to KWI or DOH...all in your top bid. The more productive you try to make your roster, the more you need unproductive flights to keep the regulator happy.

odds on how long it will take before there is a correction?

I was curious to compare the roster of one of the 777 Capts in top bid for FEB, against my (bottom bid) roster. His...102 hours (of unwanted overtime). Block of 10 days off included in there somewhere. Mine, 71 hours, 8 days off, (albeit with a few days of vacation).

My point? What a load of crap claiming that it is to "balance the workload". Guys are sitting around on reserve doing sweet FA, while the top bid guys are flying their butts off, just to ensure that the top bid people don't get too many days off in a row. And of course, in this case, it costs the company a bucket full of productivity pay, just to ensure that our top bid Capt is completely screwed around.

Some of course would be happy with that sort of productivity pay, and that's up to them. But for those that don't want it, and don't bid for it, it's a complete farce.

"Guys are sitting around on reserve doing sweet FA"

Not on the Airbus they aren't..........