RT; Callsign discipline
 

Please, please, please, pretty please with sugar on top, etc could everyone please use your full callsign in transmissions when vital instructions are given.

I know that this topic hits the boards regularly, but I'm losing my sense of humour, especially with the sheer number of occasions recently when frequency change instructions have been met with a "Thanks, goodbye" response. All very cheery, but not what I want to hear. I have no way of knowing who's taken the call and even when I ask for the callsign readback, the offender has gone. It's led to a number of incidents that had the potential to really bite back.

Sometimes, we have upwards of 15 of one operators aircraft on one sector freq alone so it becomes vitally important that the right aircraft respond in a manner in which we are assured that the right guy's got the right information.

If training captains could send a little missive to all and sundry as a reminder, it will hopefully save a red face, or worse, in the future. Thanking you all in advance for your friendly cooperation; it only takes a liitle discipline and I'd equally be pleased if you remind some of my fellow ATCOs , including me, to sharpen up on sloppy comms.

i really want to back you up on that!

another topic who might enhance discipline aswell and make pilots a little less word-stingy:
would someone be able to recall to the upper levels why the atis had been introduced? right, so that once the pilot stated the correct and current code, neither controller nor pilot had to confirm and reconfirm the qnh and active runway and by that blocking frequencies unecesserely.

Amen...turtle.

And what's the deal with having to bleat out your a/c type and sid/star? Are we not in a radar environment? Do you guys not have progress strips with that info on it?

..i´m not an Aussie ..but still agree with ATCO1962...Sometimes here we are 1000 miles away from the standard phraseology...Not even talk about the Standard "inshallah......":)

Agree with all the above comments including the Aussie bash. Seems a lot worse around religious events and holidays. Flew the other day and my colleague was communicating with a Middle Eastern ATC. After listening to them talk for approx 20 secs, all I understood was habibi. We were actually cleared to a lower alt and I made him confirm it in English! :confused:

Come on Muttley - using the callsign is not anal:= It's required, as well as being the safe and sensible thing to do............. Especially when EK 29,39,49 and 59 are all heading for europe at about the same time:{

pls be sure to include "gidday" to ensure full understanding of the clearance:} must admit it is a problem though

Actually ATCO its not such a bad request.

What I believe could use some RT cleansing is the readback of totally un-necessary things such as "expect rwy 12" or "expect further descent in 10 miles" and the like, which occupies air time without cause.

There are a lot of foreign operators in and out of Dubai so RT standards need to be maintained but not over done!:oh:

Now, if we could just get a separate clearence delivery and ramp control frequency in Dubai. :ok:

Sid/star name reqd as per DXB charts.Dont like the pilots how speak before they think and then do their thinking with the mic keyed.

or readback the wind when clear to land...well i known it´s not a big deal... but as far as i known we are ONLY supposed to readback the Instruction and NOT the information...!

Yes I am an Aussie, and yes I require a callsign when recieving a readback. If some here think that is anal, then so be it, I am anal. I call it safe. If Aussies have the reputation for being in your words anal, in my words safe, then I am proud to be Aussie. We now have every night a rush of 20 QTR flights all Eastbound with as many as 10 on one frequency at one time with all very similair callsigns, and with an amazing propensity to answer each others calls. Frequency transfers are bad enough, and do take up a lot of time locating the aircraft and getting them back with who they should be, or just confirming the correct aircraft did change, but sometimes you have QTR aircraft taking company traffics descent and turn instructions with no callsign. Again if I am anal for not just sitting back and accepting that sort of airmanship, then so be it.

We were told that on first contact with DXB App we had to state our Altitude passing, STAR, information received, aircraft type and souls on board. Although the other night, UAE approach was telling all aircraft to say ONLY airspeed and altituude passing. Airspeed because of control going into DXB. I agree with the fact that this is RADAR control, so do you require all that stuff, or can we clear up some mike time???????

Cheers

DB :ok:

Expect further descent
 

I think that's very usefull (expect further descent). This allows me (us) to put the level off arrow approximately 10 miles beyond my (our) current position thus allowing for a continuous descent or at least an almost-continuous one. It's all about style! (displaying [good] style enhances safety, economy, puntuality and pax comfort)

Now don't forget to mention the ATIS and the runway and the QNH in your next transmission.;)

Square leg; you beat me to it! I was going to say to Andyman that that particular call about "expect further descent/climb" is to allow our piloting brethren the chance to set up a smooth climb/descent without actually having to level off.

I'm hoping that the comments about callsign use were just tongue in cheek! No one can seriously assert that any dropping of ones callsign has any place in ATC comms except where positive two-way has been started.

It's truly getting busier and busier on our freq's so we are having to insist on much more concise and standard phraseologies to assist the cause of "safe, expeditious and orderly" flows of air traffic. Back to ATC101!!

Be safe.

Muttley...
 

Very dissapointed...

"As for the callsign issue..... you must be an aussie controller to insist that pilots actually follow standard phraseology so religiously. Apparently only the aussies are so anal as to so outrageously expect the proper use of callsigns....."

I stupidly assumed all this time you may have been a professional. :(

Next time I have a QTR899 and a QTR889 an 7 other Qatari's on frequency when assigning descent I will follow your fantastic philosophy, not be so anal and let anybody who is thinking about descent help themselves, great stuff I always said that you can learn something new in this job everday. :rolleyes:

The middle east RT is a joke, its too busy for all the ma-salamas and crap talk some people go on with.
Not to mention the controllers when you call ready and they say hold short of the runway , what a waste of transmission............

instead of pointing fingers at everyone else why don't we all just do the RT the correct way, and that includes callsign readback. It is all too easy to readback someone elses callsign these days, especially with so many similar callsigns, not just EK 39, 49 59, but quatar 39, 49 and 59 as well etc etc etc. Personally I would rather not have someones unwelcome landing lights in my face due to a callsign error. And yes, it has happened to me too, in spite of trying very hard to listen out carefully.
Happy landings fellas and to our ATC colleagues, "anal Aussies" and all, thanks for he great job you guys do.;)
In spite of management we seem to get the job done
J.
incomiiiiing...................................:eek: :eek: :eek:

Yeah, I thought that was the case, Muttley. And that was because of my sharp KIWI intuition and a shared sense of high standards.

Keep up the good work:ok:

I didn't have a shot at Muttley either for the same reason...but leave Foxy alone..he has only just got back from splicing mainbraces, tacking and other nautical stuff:E

BTW ATCO'62...it's the funny accent you have that sets you apart from the crowd:ok:

Whilst we are having a whinge....can the Indian Airlines guys PLEASE listen to instructions, and after the readback, don't wait (what seems to be the norm) 60 seconds and ask us to ...."Confirm?" whatever instruction had been just given. I know you guys are busy up there, but having to say everything twice just doesn't help anyone...if you don't hear it the first time, or the other guy up front isn't listening, confirm it straight away!!!! Asking a minute later just makes you sound thick, and annoys the beejeezus out of us anal Aussies:ugh:

Sorry for snapping and not seeing the sarcasm Muttley, but this topic has been bought up heaps here, and the problem is just getting worse. These days with QTR we honestly have days where we have the 2 outbound for China with callsigns QTR898 and QTR888 and the 2 inbound from China with callsign QTR889 and QTR899 all on the one frequency at the one time. This with the other 6 or 7 other Qatari aircraft on frequency at the same time, and some brain surgeon flying his bus decides a callsign is optional when responding to an instruction.

As the shortage of staff bites in the Middle east, it has become more and more obvious standards are dropping, and I would guess that standards of R/T are just the tip of the iceberg.

BTW Maybe we should change the name of this website to Formula 1 PPRUNE, cos I think the website is starting to resemble a Ferrari F1 car with the random splattering of Google Ads everywhere. Hey guys there is a little spot between the quote button and the check spelling button that you could squeeze an ad into.

we all know that the gus pilots give us a hard time with their not understanding r/t and with their
underperforming equipment. it now appears that one or two new m/e companies, allthough enjoying the latest
toys, gives us new headaches with lower quality jockeys and bad r/t discipline, just echoing a lot of
subcontinent carriers.
if this should be the reason or excuse to introduce or uphold unneccessary constraints, bigger separations,
triple reconfirmations of the simplest basics and god (or allah) knows what traffic hindering measures more:
i'm sorry but we should not accept this. there's a thing called asr and a regulator who is required to act upon.
if not, for all the habibi factors around here, there are many ways to get the problem known. pprune for one,
but there are more. if you atc guys have a story to tell, then do it. i always file a asr if there has been a
situation that concerned my flight and i insist on a answer. admittedly i'm not always successful, but if we all
try and don't duck, the pressure rises and eventually becomes effective.
i would just ask every pro in this environement not to accept the lowering standard by some new clowns. it
should be them improving or beeing shown the door, but in no way us lowering the standards, regarding safety
or efficiency, just to suit some wet dream of megalomaniac "leaders".
i therefore back every effort to increase r/t discipline while imploring both sides to fight against any silly
quadruple a..covering measures.
ttn

turtleneck spot on mate!! U got my vote. As much as it pains me but I lost my trust in any improvement in this part of the world. I seriously cant figure it out what causes people being so negligent or sloppily. Me thinks its mentality. Its simply easier to ignore the problems rather then to solve them especially when the environment supports it. The best excuse I heard was its anyway all up to the almighty.:ugh:

Duck,

Whatever are you talking about? I don't have an accent.

Try not to take offence Warlock me old, but if you want to call yourself one, try learning how to spell PROFESSIONAL...remember, 1xF 2xS.

If in real doubt, perhaps cast a glance at the top of the page...you'll find it there:ugh:

As to being anal...please tell me what you would prefer, and I'll see if we can get the R/T sorted out for your personal enjoyment:rolleyes:

Muttley...
 

Geeez mate, ya had me there for a minute!

My brain was still doing 'island time' 10 days bobbing around the Caribbean scoffing rum punch and enjoying the company of fair wenches has corrupted my PPrune vetting skills...back on top of it now :cool:

ATCO be careful using 'sharp' and 'Kiwi' in the same sentence, you will confuse the readers...now as for the accent :E

One of the big problems in EK it that there is no formal RT training for new joiners and established pilots alike. Alot of our new pilots are joining from parts of the world where bad RT is a day to day norm and the bad habits are not being ironed out in training.

The poor RT disipline is only going to get worse before it gets better, you only have to see where all the new pilots are coming from, and they don't say "MATE".

It's up to us all to improve the standards, Captains when flying with F/O's who display bad RT should be pulled up and corrected, (not sure what the F/O will say to the Captain!), and during training, the training Captains need to jump to poor RT standards.

Just my thoughts on the matter. I'm sure there's alot more that can be done.

Happy flying and controlling. :ok:

Actually I have a really good picture of the airspace, and it is filled with pilots just like you:=
Each one of them prattling away with what they think sounds like way cool, hip and trendy R/T....or not:rolleyes:
The pity is that we don't all talk just like you do:rolleyes:
I wonder if, perhaps, you could fill me in on the reason standard phraseology exists at all?
Anyone else want to jump in here?

You seem to have quite a chip on the shoulder there Warlock...any reason for that?

BTW, as professional aircrew, I would have thought that you could spell it... perhaps Mum and Dad's hard earned was wasted and they should have sent you to the local comprehensive?:(

For the record, I don't usually jump up and down about spelling, only in certain circumstances, and this just happened to be one of them:bored:

But why are you banging on about Australian controllers in Australia when the thread was started by a Kiwi, in the Gulf (at a location, known to only a few) about appalling R/T here in the Gulf? Could this be an attempt at deflecting the issue?:=

I mean, Jeeezzzz, just bl**dy read back what is supposed to be read back and shut the f:mad: :mad: k up with all the other stuff.

Rant over

note to self, don't post after half a bottle of red....:uhoh:

Hey , foxxy, be careful how you slander the fair isles of the east. I mean, you wanted to be or are one of us, aren't you??:E

I just got back from an evening shift, where I started to count the number of times I didn't get a readback of a callsign when vital instructions were issued. I stopped counting at 20.:sad: I say again....20!! Really, that's appalling and they were from every operator under the sun.

What to do?? I thought of various methods of torture but I think the Geneva Convention has put paid to those delicious thoughts:*

As always, it seems that the best way is to model good standards, kind of like parents to their children, and hope that the good ones will take the baton and pass it on.

Safe and happy flying, aviators!!

I thought I was being fair and just Mutt:E I didn't mention at any time how he spells "affraid":}

Hey Warlock, now that I have added a couple of single malts to the reds.... you wouldn't be the one that the Gatwick controllers have to add additional miles to in the sequence would you? Both arriving, 'cause you can't get off the runway quickly enough, and departing, 'cause you can't get off the runway quickly enough)?
Could it be that you can't keep up with the pace of life in the real world either?:ooh:

Pot to kettle, pot to kettle, come in please!

Ok Warlock back to the topic, are you saying that a New York ATC'er is happy to work without any callsigns in readbacks. Are you saying they rely on their voice recognition skills instead? Because you are saying that Aussies are pedantic for needing readbacks as specified in all documents, and that we wouldn't be able to work in the US for that reason. Is that what you are saying?

BTW before you play your little violin to yourself about having to talk to more than one controller at a time, with 2 guys up the front to do it. Spare a thought for the one guy trying to talk to 20 aircraft at the same time, with noone beside them doing the Sudoku, who they can ask to make that call for them.

Your posts really stink of someone who has never stepped foot inside an ATC centre and so has no appreciation of the challenges that are faced everyday on the other end of the radio.

Not trying to be anal but 3 easy rules to follow,

1. Use callsign always.
2. Meet any restrictions as outlined verbally or in documents unless otherwise cancelled by ATC.
3. Say your level passing and cleared level on first contact.

Easy really isn't it.

This started off as a very good topic, shame it's turned into a slagging match. :=

Oh, it's great - I should have waded in with my censors scissors & spell-checker but what the hell, it's great debate & nice to see the guys hanging it all out. And I've learnt a few things to boot.

4HP

Agreed. I am thoroughly enjoying this thread from afar.............quite a while since we have seen anything as lively (and multi-relevant to all of you) in the ME Forum for a while.

Dear oh Dear!
 

No Maaate, I don't need anyone to help, that's what the hold is for:E

I asked for others to give their versions in the vain hope that you may get the point if it were plugged from several different sources, seemings how you don't listen to ATC's.

As one of the other posters said do you seriously think that we should use intuition rather than correct readbacks (ie I THINK I know he received and understood the message, but did he REALLY get the gist)?
This is the second or third time you have been asked this question but you seem totally incapable of answering it other than to abuse the person asking it.

The attitude you are displaying is one of "I am a Sky God, and the only one in the sky that knows what is what".

Sitting there in your comfortable aluminium cocoon, I really wonder if you have any idea of the maelstrom that is going on around you?
As ANSA said, we don't just sit there waiting with rapt attention for you to speak to us.
On one of our sectors in UAE we have to coordinate with Tehran, Muscat, Bahrain, UAE central, UAE East and Dubai Approach. Every level change, speed control assignment, time revision etc must be passed on.
That same guy handles the upper DESDI hold, all the climbing stuff out of Doha via the northern routes, all the departures thru PAPAR, all the overflying and landing stuff via ORSAR and AMOLI, all the stuff overflying MENSA, LALDO and GISMO.
At the same time he is identifying traffic from Tehran's FIR (that's why we want squawk and level passing) passing clearances (which require readbacks) and doing all the other sequencing, monitoring and separating stuff that we get paid for.
Now with that tiny grain of awareness now firmly in your mind, ask yourself, do we want to hear a readback so that we can get on with the next task in the job queue, or do we want to go back to you to get a REQUIRED readback which wastes our very valuable thinking time, and bumps something else that really needs to be attended to?

Another question I have is just where would YOU like the line drawn with non-compliance? YOU have English as a first language, many of the pilots out there do not. Just because someone has a different accent do we require them to readback correctly? What about when you are not flying in home airspace? Do you then comply with other FIRs different interpretations? Imagine the chaos if that were the case.

Standard phraseology is there just to stop this kind of thing, we all play from the same page, no mistakes, no misunderstandings.

Oooh I know, lets not use UTC, lets use local time...that should help...the argument is the same.
If you are a troll, well done, you have certainly got several bites with that cheap bait, but if you are serious:ugh:

ps regarding your spelling....are you advising me or giving advice?:E

4HP sorry about the length of this post, any spelling errors etc, but not for the content (or what I was trying to say anyway)...

That is exactly why there is a STANDARD phraseology, isn't it?

No actually it's not. Some places adhere more to it and some less. But there is only one standard laid down by ICAO. Bare in mind, I am not talking about how this issue is handled all over the world!

Buddy I've done both. And belive me, it was much more demanding to become a ATCO than a pilot. The later was a piece of cake!!

To risk the ire of the mods....the gentleman who first brought up the professional thing was no other than the Warlock.
The tongue in cheek comment seems to have really brought up some issues that the chap has:p
And if I may point out to him and others, all the slanging seems to have been from him and generally directed at me (or others who hold dissimilar views).
At no point have I called him a sad B@stard, slagged off his nationality, said that I don't care what he is getting up to whilst working, to grow up,called him anal, that I needed counselling etc etc.

All I , and others, have tried to do is to get everyone on the same page...

Warlock me old mate....I assume that as English is your first language, you could get the irony of the smilie just after the hold statement? If not:ugh:

Similarly, you have not given one useful idea to the thread since you started personal attacks, how about you answer the question about where to draw the line? Hmmm?

As for your throwaway about getting the coord right the first time, that isn't even worth wasting bandwidth trying to educate you.
There are a multitude of threads about speed control into Dubai...read them and learn something before cooking off again:rolleyes:

Funnily enough, I see my "mission in life" as you called it, to keep the metal apart by the required distance in what can be loosly termed a "safe, orderly and expeditious" manner.
Standard phraseologies help me in doing that, if you can't or won't see that point, there is really no further point discussing the matter with you.

For the record, never been a pilot, never wanted to be.

ha, ha, sorry man. Misunderstanding. Didn’t mean to pinch on you. Just wanted to highlight, that there is only ONE standard. There is just the operating standards that change.

And yes I am guilty as well not always adhering to standards. Where do I draw the line? Where safety is exposed. Not reading back an instruction or not mentioning your full callsign when doing so is a safety issue. Step into the controllers shoes.

ABC123 climb FL350
Rog 35oh

The controller has two possibilities. Either he jumps at you and asks for a proper read back or, in case of an accident, will be held liable for.
(I know of a case where the ATCO was held liable for an accident not for the wrong word but for the wrong tone!!- According the lawyer he scared the pilot so he fell out of the sky. No joke!)

Same for the passing level. ATCO has to check your mode C readout to be within 300ft (if my memory serves me right... long time ago) otherwise he has to disregard the readout and will always have to ask about your passing altitude.

There again. If he asks back... what a moron. Doesn't he have a radar?
If he doesn't and you have a close one.... picture yourself.

There are two things I took from my old days as an ATCO.
CYA (Cover Your Ass)
and even more important
Never assume (because it makes an ASS out of U and ME

Happy flying guys!!

I would like to register my agreement with all those who've advocated or implied that we should all be heading towards ICAO standards, something that I foolishly thought we all did anyway!

I've listened into a number of web sites where you can hear ATC comms and in some cases, I've hardly been able to understand what's going on, and this after 25 years in the job. It only seems right that all ATCOs, no matter where we are, should be positively encouraging a much higher standard of comms, setting the bar higher, so to speak, and then enforcing them in our 6-monthly checks. An almost impossible dream in our part of the world, but one that is going to have to be more seriously looked at in light of the huge growth in movements here.

To all the guys and gals that we serve in the air, please don't take this as a cheap pot shot, or another us vs them thread. I'm only asking that we take pride in our collective efforts to get the travelling public safely to their destinations and this topic is one that really needs to be addressed in order that we don't needlessly endanger anyone. We don't have the right to insist that we can use our own methodologies in radio comms because of our personalities or temperaments or the need to sound cool or friendly.

Bottom line, we're paid to be professionals and, even after all these years, I still want to be a better controller.

Bottom line: English is not everyone's home language - how would you guys feel controlling in Chinese / Russian / French etc? I agree that a minimum standard needs to be maintained, but a lot of the times certain people (and I'm not going into nationalities here) are just being pedantic at the expense of others.

Fully agree.
In my opinion, I believe pilots and controllers talk too much in this part of the world. Also, there is this silly requirement to pass a lot of information to the controller on the first contact; so much for the need to establish contact first;then, start the exchange.
I actually witnessed the UAE Center Ozzie controller tell off the Indian pilot the other night (a while ago, actually). That particular Indian was very annoying! He would receive the instruction, read it back correctly, pause for a few seconds, and then, ask the controller to confirm the same thing again!!!

We all talk too much in this part of the world. I wonder whether we would survive in areas like O'Hare, JFK, Boston, etc,.
The air traffic in the area is becoming busier by the day and the need to update and modernize the procedures is paramount.

Another annoying habit that is creeping into the Dubai tower system is that of issuing takeoff clearance, ask you to maintain tower frequency and call you back, right at lift off, instructing you to call departures. Keep in mind ATCOs, that at that time, one pilot is concentrated in getting the airplane off the runway and the other, closely monitoring the actions of the PF and the status of the airplane. It is a bad time to be called with instructions for this or that. :=