RT; Callsign discipline
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Joined: Jul 2005
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From: New Zealand
RT; Callsign discipline
Please, please, please, pretty please with sugar on top, etc could everyone please use your full callsign in transmissions when vital instructions are given.
I know that this topic hits the boards regularly, but I'm losing my sense of humour, especially with the sheer number of occasions recently when frequency change instructions have been met with a "Thanks, goodbye" response. All very cheery, but not what I want to hear. I have no way of knowing who's taken the call and even when I ask for the callsign readback, the offender has gone. It's led to a number of incidents that had the potential to really bite back.
Sometimes, we have upwards of 15 of one operators aircraft on one sector freq alone so it becomes vitally important that the right aircraft respond in a manner in which we are assured that the right guy's got the right information.
If training captains could send a little missive to all and sundry as a reminder, it will hopefully save a red face, or worse, in the future. Thanking you all in advance for your friendly cooperation; it only takes a liitle discipline and I'd equally be pleased if you remind some of my fellow ATCOs , including me, to sharpen up on sloppy comms.
I know that this topic hits the boards regularly, but I'm losing my sense of humour, especially with the sheer number of occasions recently when frequency change instructions have been met with a "Thanks, goodbye" response. All very cheery, but not what I want to hear. I have no way of knowing who's taken the call and even when I ask for the callsign readback, the offender has gone. It's led to a number of incidents that had the potential to really bite back.
Sometimes, we have upwards of 15 of one operators aircraft on one sector freq alone so it becomes vitally important that the right aircraft respond in a manner in which we are assured that the right guy's got the right information.
If training captains could send a little missive to all and sundry as a reminder, it will hopefully save a red face, or worse, in the future. Thanking you all in advance for your friendly cooperation; it only takes a liitle discipline and I'd equally be pleased if you remind some of my fellow ATCOs , including me, to sharpen up on sloppy comms.
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i really want to back you up on that!
another topic who might enhance discipline aswell and make pilots a little less word-stingy:
would someone be able to recall to the upper levels why the atis had been introduced? right, so that once the pilot stated the correct and current code, neither controller nor pilot had to confirm and reconfirm the qnh and active runway and by that blocking frequencies unecesserely.
another topic who might enhance discipline aswell and make pilots a little less word-stingy:
would someone be able to recall to the upper levels why the atis had been introduced? right, so that once the pilot stated the correct and current code, neither controller nor pilot had to confirm and reconfirm the qnh and active runway and by that blocking frequencies unecesserely.
Joined: Feb 2006
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From: Australasia
Agree with all the above comments including the Aussie bash. Seems a lot worse around religious events and holidays. Flew the other day and my colleague was communicating with a Middle Eastern ATC. After listening to them talk for approx 20 secs, all I understood was habibi. We were actually cleared to a lower alt and I made him confirm it in English! 
Joined: Jul 2000
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From: Dubai - sand land.
Come on Muttley - using the callsign is not anal
It's required, as well as being the safe and sensible thing to do............. Especially when EK 29,39,49 and 59 are all heading for europe at about the same time
It's required, as well as being the safe and sensible thing to do............. Especially when EK 29,39,49 and 59 are all heading for europe at about the same time
must admit it is a problem though
Joined: Oct 2004
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From: Middle East
Actually ATCO its not such a bad request.
What I believe could use some RT cleansing is the readback of totally un-necessary things such as "expect rwy 12" or "expect further descent in 10 miles" and the like, which occupies air time without cause.
There are a lot of foreign operators in and out of Dubai so RT standards need to be maintained but not over done!
Now, if we could just get a separate clearence delivery and ramp control frequency in Dubai.
What I believe could use some RT cleansing is the readback of totally un-necessary things such as "expect rwy 12" or "expect further descent in 10 miles" and the like, which occupies air time without cause.
There are a lot of foreign operators in and out of Dubai so RT standards need to be maintained but not over done!
Now, if we could just get a separate clearence delivery and ramp control frequency in Dubai.
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
Yes I am an Aussie, and yes I require a callsign when recieving a readback. If some here think that is anal, then so be it, I am anal. I call it safe. If Aussies have the reputation for being in your words anal, in my words safe, then I am proud to be Aussie. We now have every night a rush of 20 QTR flights all Eastbound with as many as 10 on one frequency at one time with all very similair callsigns, and with an amazing propensity to answer each others calls. Frequency transfers are bad enough, and do take up a lot of time locating the aircraft and getting them back with who they should be, or just confirming the correct aircraft did change, but sometimes you have QTR aircraft taking company traffics descent and turn instructions with no callsign. Again if I am anal for not just sitting back and accepting that sort of airmanship, then so be it.
Joined: Nov 2002
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From: Sandpit
We were told that on first contact with DXB App we had to state our Altitude passing, STAR, information received, aircraft type and souls on board. Although the other night, UAE approach was telling all aircraft to say ONLY airspeed and altituude passing. Airspeed because of control going into DXB. I agree with the fact that this is RADAR control, so do you require all that stuff, or can we clear up some mike time???????
Cheers
DB
Cheers
DB
Joined: Jul 2003
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From: Mahlangeni
Expect further descent
I think that's very usefull (expect further descent). This allows me (us) to put the level off arrow approximately 10 miles beyond my (our) current position thus allowing for a continuous descent or at least an almost-continuous one. It's all about style! (displaying [good] style enhances safety, economy, puntuality and pax comfort)
Now don't forget to mention the ATIS and the runway and the QNH in your next transmission.
Now don't forget to mention the ATIS and the runway and the QNH in your next transmission.
Thread Starter
Joined: Jul 2005
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From: New Zealand
Square leg; you beat me to it! I was going to say to Andyman that that particular call about "expect further descent/climb" is to allow our piloting brethren the chance to set up a smooth climb/descent without actually having to level off.
I'm hoping that the comments about callsign use were just tongue in cheek! No one can seriously assert that any dropping of ones callsign has any place in ATC comms except where positive two-way has been started.
It's truly getting busier and busier on our freq's so we are having to insist on much more concise and standard phraseologies to assist the cause of "safe, expeditious and orderly" flows of air traffic. Back to ATC101!!
Be safe.
I'm hoping that the comments about callsign use were just tongue in cheek! No one can seriously assert that any dropping of ones callsign has any place in ATC comms except where positive two-way has been started.
It's truly getting busier and busier on our freq's so we are having to insist on much more concise and standard phraseologies to assist the cause of "safe, expeditious and orderly" flows of air traffic. Back to ATC101!!
Be safe.
Joined: Aug 2000
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From: Middle East
Muttley...
Very dissapointed...
"As for the callsign issue..... you must be an aussie controller to insist that pilots actually follow standard phraseology so religiously. Apparently only the aussies are so anal as to so outrageously expect the proper use of callsigns....."
I stupidly assumed all this time you may have been a professional.
Next time I have a QTR899 and a QTR889 an 7 other Qatari's on frequency when assigning descent I will follow your fantastic philosophy, not be so anal and let anybody who is thinking about descent help themselves, great stuff I always said that you can learn something new in this job everday.
"As for the callsign issue..... you must be an aussie controller to insist that pilots actually follow standard phraseology so religiously. Apparently only the aussies are so anal as to so outrageously expect the proper use of callsigns....."
I stupidly assumed all this time you may have been a professional.
Next time I have a QTR899 and a QTR889 an 7 other Qatari's on frequency when assigning descent I will follow your fantastic philosophy, not be so anal and let anybody who is thinking about descent help themselves, great stuff I always said that you can learn something new in this job everday.
Joined: Feb 2005
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From: London
The middle east RT is a joke, its too busy for all the ma-salamas and crap talk some people go on with.
Not to mention the controllers when you call ready and they say hold short of the runway , what a waste of transmission............
Not to mention the controllers when you call ready and they say hold short of the runway , what a waste of transmission............
Joined: Jul 2002
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From: The Sandpit
instead of pointing fingers at everyone else why don't we all just do the RT the correct way, and that includes callsign readback. It is all too easy to readback someone elses callsign these days, especially with so many similar callsigns, not just EK 39, 49 59, but quatar 39, 49 and 59 as well etc etc etc. Personally I would rather not have someones unwelcome landing lights in my face due to a callsign error. And yes, it has happened to me too, in spite of trying very hard to listen out carefully.
Happy landings fellas and to our ATC colleagues, "anal Aussies" and all, thanks for he great job you guys do.
In spite of management we seem to get the job done
J.
incomiiiiing...................................
Happy landings fellas and to our ATC colleagues, "anal Aussies" and all, thanks for he great job you guys do.
In spite of management we seem to get the job done
J.
incomiiiiing...................................
Joined: May 2001
Posts: 516
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From: UAE
guys, guys, guys....... jeesuzz, I was being sarcastic. Aussie high standards are mistaken for anallity around other parts. Me I think the high standards should be the norm.
Fair suck of the sav. Anyway I can say it because I'm an aussie too.
Once more for the hard of hearing.... I was being SAH-CAH-STIC......
Fair suck of the sav. Anyway I can say it because I'm an aussie too.
Once more for the hard of hearing.... I was being SAH-CAH-STIC......
BTW ATCO'62...it's the funny accent you have that sets you apart from the crowd
Whilst we are having a whinge....can the Indian Airlines guys PLEASE listen to instructions, and after the readback, don't wait (what seems to be the norm) 60 seconds and ask us to ...."Confirm?" whatever instruction had been just given. I know you guys are busy up there, but having to say everything twice just doesn't help anyone...if you don't hear it the first time, or the other guy up front isn't listening, confirm it straight away!!!! Asking a minute later just makes you sound thick, and annoys the beejeezus out of us anal Aussies
Joined: Sep 2001
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From: 24 27 45.66N 54 22 42.28E
Sorry for snapping and not seeing the sarcasm Muttley, but this topic has been bought up heaps here, and the problem is just getting worse. These days with QTR we honestly have days where we have the 2 outbound for China with callsigns QTR898 and QTR888 and the 2 inbound from China with callsign QTR889 and QTR899 all on the one frequency at the one time. This with the other 6 or 7 other Qatari aircraft on frequency at the same time, and some brain surgeon flying his bus decides a callsign is optional when responding to an instruction.
As the shortage of staff bites in the Middle east, it has become more and more obvious standards are dropping, and I would guess that standards of R/T are just the tip of the iceberg.
BTW Maybe we should change the name of this website to Formula 1 PPRUNE, cos I think the website is starting to resemble a Ferrari F1 car with the random splattering of Google Ads everywhere. Hey guys there is a little spot between the quote button and the check spelling button that you could squeeze an ad into.
As the shortage of staff bites in the Middle east, it has become more and more obvious standards are dropping, and I would guess that standards of R/T are just the tip of the iceberg.
BTW Maybe we should change the name of this website to Formula 1 PPRUNE, cos I think the website is starting to resemble a Ferrari F1 car with the random splattering of Google Ads everywhere. Hey guys there is a little spot between the quote button and the check spelling button that you could squeeze an ad into.