Full marks for the ATCOS.... the comment made earlier about phraseology varying across the world prompted me to consider how many countries I'd had to fly in and out of over my career... the approx number was something over 50 and I can honestly say that I've never run into a problem using standard ICAO phrasing... on the contrary... the less well English is spoken and the more remote the area the more likley it is that standard calls will succeed... I've also noticed that it's almost entirely the pilots not ATCOS that deviate from the correct phrasing... why should that be ? ... both are under pressure to perform professionally....
I've only recently begun operating out of the Emirates on a regular basis and so have limited experience here but I will say... having looked at the area charts before my first arrival... 1) I was extremely relieved to here ex-pat voices responding to calls... and 2) I've been thoroughly impressed by the standards displayed ( so far )... In an area where it must be tempting to let everyone fly a full STAR we have a bunch of enthusiastic controllers jockying us around with vectors to get the whole thing working as efficiently as possible...
Here at least are my thanks for a job being well done.

Thanks for your words of support poorwanderingwun, they are really appreciated. We are currently under the pump big time here in the UAE where traffic has risen by about 50% in the last 5 years, and is increasing by almost 15% annually at the moment. In that time our number of controllers on nightshifts (by far our busiest shift), has only risen by 1, from 5 to 6. The procedures have pretty much stayed the same, and to compound that we have been having to give Dubai double the usual spacing due to the single runway ops, resulting in ridiculous holding stacks almost every night into Dubai. We are seriously being stretched at the seams, and we need all the help we can get from our pilot friends.

So in light of this, and remembering that pilots and ATC'ers are on the same team, and should be trying to look out for each other and help each other as best we can, things like prompt correct readbacks, make the world of difference.

If pilots flying into the UAE all gave there level passing and cleared level on first contact, readback their clearances with a callsign as required by ICAO, and then continued to listen out, and respond promptly both in word and action, the difficult situation we are experiencing right now, will be made
that bit easier.

I know there will be some on this forum that will have switched off to all that, because it is just ATC blah blah blah, but to the prof(f?)essionals out there, if you help us out by doing these few things, it may just give us the minute or two spare to call Dubai, and try and negotiate with them high speed and direct UKRUM, rather than chasing up required readbacks we should have got in the first place. Thanks.

Good job guys!
 

Would like to say all the guys I speak to going into the UAE and certain other gulf states, nice work. Wouldnt like to have your job I tell you! I believe a big part of your job is risk management. If you had to argue with every pilot on reading back an ICAO standard clearance, single runway ops would not work at, especially at DXB.

Example : "Salam alah ekoum, xxx123 320 for 10000 inshallah tugos maybe 2200 yellah masalamah"

Maybe a bit of an exageration, but makes me giggle every time!

Keep up the good work guys and gals. And since on the ATC subject, whats up with that beacon on 121.5 between DXB and BAH for the last week.

Cheers

DB :ok:

Thanks Desert Budgie. As far as the beacon goes, we fax off ELT reports every shift to the authorities, and then it is up to them to do something about it. Unfortunately here they don't seem to take them as seriously as they should and they just keep going until the battery runs out. In Oz if we get an ELT report, we get reports from all other aircraft in the area, telling us when they get the signal and when they lose it, did it come in intermittent or strong etc etc., and then the authority triangulate the responses to narrow down the search area and they go out and search for it. Here we say a guy got a report at this level in this place, and thats it. But I guess in Oz we are anal about SAR, and over do it like everything else. Honestly there is hardly a day at work where 121.5 isn't blocked by some sort of interference.:ugh:

-What if we read back clearances, instructions, rwy in use and QNH like we are supposed to, and left it at that? Reading back the wind information is not a requirement. Maybe in India, but not here. No, you don't sound more professional when you do.

-What if we give the call sign and FL when we change freq? Or passing and cleared FL? This is normal practice in the civilized world. I don't know if it's an actual requirement (in UAE it is), but it will normally save a couple of Txmissions. No, you don't have to say "We are on hand over". If you have not been handed over, you're not on the freq. Maybe in India, but not here.

-What if Bahrain could see us without "Squawk Ident"? The rest of the world can, so why not you?

-What if numbers could be said like they should be said? It's heading three hundred, not three zero zero. Two thousand five hundred feet, not two five zero zero feet.

-What if we didn't have to say POB all the time?

-What if we didn't have to state requested FL? Aircraft type? Isn't that what the filed flight plan is for?

-Read back the f@cking call sign! There is no excuse for not doing so.

Proper R/T saves lives. It's as simple as that.

Two points:

1) What about lovely Dammam "Radar"?

Had a chat with some friends that ride their machines through Dammam's claimed part of space recently, and they are astounded at how low the quality of Dammam's "controllers" are. They apparently sound like they are fresh out of school - let alone ATC school - and just don't "get it". Case in point...

Eastbound, Bahrain clears you down into their airspace, la? Dammam takes over (usually after a reminder call to ask for lower..refer to point #2 below).

WHY must Dammam, each and every time, babble on and on about the precise position in space the flight is, relative to the KFA VOR? "Roger you are eyedentifieed forty-seven miles west of Keelo Fax Elpha (WHO CARES!!!) (and this even when the flight isn't "Direct KFA")...in the meantime, the lower limit Bahrain cleared them to is (was) maybe 200 feet to go, and while the crew are patiently waiting to be cleared lower, this knucklehead yaps on and on about you are 34.528 NM west of some point they think is their "Star Gate" zone...engines either spooling up (with a new peelot) or levelling off and slowing down as they approach said altitude...

Dammam needs to revisit how it works, because it's broken.

Time-warp to the future: "ABC123 identified. Descend 7000 QNH 1013" Wow. Amazingly hard, la?

2) Why must most pilots remind controllers they are approaching whatever altitude limit, and have to request higher (lower) altitudes? Are they (the controllers) simply too understaffed to the point they don't see the altitude read-outs, and therefore continue the climbs (descends) as if they are step-climbs (descends)?? And I don't mean this when the skies are crowded, or another flight would interfere with a continued climb, etc... This happens CONSTANTLY.

3) (A bonus point)...why is there such a need to turn flights inbound for Bahrain towards Kuwait (for example) every evening during rush-hour? What happened to co-ordinating speeds better between the various ATC units (and not just Dammam, either!)...or flow-control...or stacking them over KFA (hey THAT place again!) or whatever? I heard the main user of Bahrain carries lots of extra petrol around due to the "Shiraz 1 Arrival" or the "Doha 2 Bravo Arrival 30 R". Would make a LOT more sense to manage the flow a wee bit better, chaps. Maybe plunk this on the bosses desk?? Any other ideas??

Note all three points here involve RT at some point. :p

Back to the races...Happy trails.

Good thread, by the way. :ok:

my dream:
"zzz approach good evening, abc123 level xxx descending level xxx, information Y."
"abc123 salam aleikum, cleared 3000 feet, cleared maddog-1c approach, report established."
"abc123 cleared 3000 feet and maddog-1c approach, will report established."
everything is clear, the atis code was identified as correct, thus rwy in use and qnh are known,
the sid clearance issued and read back correctly. if no vector will be assigned, abc123
will call established and will then be tranferred to twr.
not rocket science and standard r/t. all it needs is a intelligent layout of airspace,
star/sid and coordination between atc centers. different a/c speeds and conflicting incoming
traffic would be separated as follows: on the star/sid the speeds are mandatory, begin of star 300kts,
below fl100 250kts, within 25nm/td 220kts, 15nm 190kts, 8nm 170kts, the star's are designed as tubes with
~2.5°descent slope (sid's between ~2° and 6°), therefore fixed altitudes and speeds are flown throughout the int appr and to separate incoming conflicting traffic there are 4 different tubes (maddog-1a,1b,1c,1d)
each one 2nm longer, which can be assigned to sequence the following a/c without vectoring.
there would be a lot less blah blah's, re-reconfirmations, may we's, unable's, misunderstandings and
no more need to boast your superiour a/c type.
the one's not coping with the layed-out constraints could be given a escape vector, just to start and try the procedure all over again. they won't screw up twice!
but as i said: my dream ......... too many narrow minded and short sighted ego's around this place.
ttn

atc
 

hi folks
just read this forum
found it sometimes amazing sometimes disgusting
I also fly to dubai from europe and I am ashamed about the standard there according Rt.
Is it so difficult to stick to the standard ATC phrasology?
Do you feel tread on somebody´s toes if you adhere to a high standard phrasology?
For me a high standard is necessary especially in qtr and dbx since there are lots of similiar call signs
thanks
PS: If ATC want another phrasology (Call sign only or report just altitude and what else) they will tell you!!!

We seem to be all agreeing that Standard R/T is the way to go, and callsigns should ALWAYS be used. Unfortunately the pilots not using callsigns and not reporting level passing and cleared level on first contact, are in all likelihood not the guys reading these forums. Maybe you guys who do read these forums need to get in the ears of the guys you fly with that are guilty of these errors, and also in the ears of the check captains who may be able to improve the standard across the airline as a whole.

As far as aircraft being levelled off rather than having continuous descent or climb, I can't speak for Dammam, or Bahrain or Doha, but I'll try and explain the challenges we face specifically in the UAE. From the Southern Emirates (AUH) to Muscat the standard coordinated level for departures is FL210, and from Northern Emirates (DXB and SHJ) to Muscat is FL250. Depending on the runway in use, the aircraft type, long haul vs short haul, the air temperature etc etc. these FL's can be enough to allow us to transfer the aircraft to Muscat at the boundary and still allow continuous climb. Alot of the time though, the aircraft needs climb prior to the FIR boundary, and that means in the case of the Nth, we need to coordinate with both UAE Nth and Muscat for higher, which depending on our workload, or theirs, may not be possible. If that is the case and I have the time available I will always try and tell the aircraft concerned as early as possible the expected delay for higher so as to allow the pilot to reduce the climb rate so as to hopefully allow continuous climb. A major reason for FL210 out of AUH to Muscat is that Muscat descends the African/Yemen traffic from the south going to Northern Emirates to FL220, and these routes cross the AUH eastbound route just inside Muscats airspace, so if all else fails due to workload, frequency congestion or radio failure, we have separation established. So again, we will try to get the aircraft higher if we can but due to a number of reasons this may not be possible. Again if that is the case I will try and tell the pilot asap of this being the case and hopefully when they can expect to get higher.

These examples are just the tip of the iceberg, and there are these sorts of restrictions all over the airspace (eg. FL220 by DUMPI, at the moment not below FL160 inbound DB/SHJ till clear of Muscat FIR due NOTAMed restricted airspace, etc.) These restrictions are so that if all else fails hopefully we will have vertical separation with crossing traffic. We don't intentionally stop aircraft from climbing or descending on profile, but in a lot of cases there is a very good reason why a level off is unavoidable.

I hope that clarifies everything a little bit. Cheers ;)

hey guys and girls, sorry in advance for any spelling errors.....


thanks to those of you who have shown their support to atc for our work done and a HUGE thanks to those who follow ICAO r/t and help us have a bit more thinking time instead of wasting time chasing up poor r/t.:ok:


to those who believe that atc(not just those from down under) getting correct readbacks is anal, is it also considered anal if you wait till the correct speeds to pull flaps/landing gear etc or just following sop's? :confused:


i would have thought that reading back the correct instruction with correct callsign would have been as big a safety issue as ensuring you aren't doing 300kts ias while trying to lower the landing gear. think i'm joking? UAE967 4 a/c below UAE97 in the stack a couple of weeks ago. every f:mad: ing tranmission given to UAE967 was either read back by both a/c or just by UAE97 including decent. safe as houses eh?? :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

thanks to the other 3 uae a/c who reamed him out on "the numbers". he seemed to get the idea in the end. :D

so to all those g&g at the pointy end of the tube, sort out the folks who don't read this thread/give a f@$$ and get them to use std ICAO r/t and we will try to do the same with our buddies on the ground.:ok:

.....and one more recent observation that causes us ATCOs some consternation: a lot of guys who've been transferred to our freq lately have not paused and listened before they checked in, needlessly interrupting a dialogue between myself and another aircraft, meaning more precious time being wasted. On a number of occasions, not too many admittedly, some of these culprits have pressed the button even while two way comms are being conducted, thereby giving us that real satisfying squeal on the freq:ouch:

OK, that's off my chest. I'll stop complaining.......for a nanosecond:E

Have a good one and to all those who know you're doing a good job with your comms, thanks for making ATC a pleasure when you do just what you're supposed to do. We do notice.