The 160 knot thread
 

Can somebody, for the love of God, please tell Dubai Approach control to stop telling B777-300s to slow to 160 knots until within about a 6 mile final!!! :ugh:

Typhoonpilot

It may be obvious to you or me why that is a problem, however any ATCO's reading this may need a bit more explanation of the problem :ok:

160kts
 

Hey TP, try this R/T pharseology with the controller, "DUBAI APPROACH, EMIRATES (what ever) UNABLE 160Kts. Plus try to explain it while they tell you to unwind before 4NM.
Regards
INV

I've said that phrase more than 50 times now. One would think they would begin to see a trend. I've written a CSR or two, e-mails, etc, but the problem persists. Heathrow Director seems to be the only ATCO that understands and can plan accordingly.


You're right of course, but needed an attention getter to start the thread. The problem is thus: A Boeing 777-300 at max landing weight ( which is what we often arrive at ) has a min clean speed of 229 knots; flaps 5 speed of 189 knots; and flaps 15/20 speed of 169 knots. To go any slower than 169 knots we have to put the landing gear down. That is something that we would like to avoid prior to the normal glideslope intercept point.

It seems that even when a controller uses 170 knots they haven't actually planned the spacing based on that and you end up very close to the preceeding aircraft. The tower tells you to slow to min speed on initial contact, ( which is 154, by the way ). It gets very uncomfortable with a late landing clearance and in some cases a go-around ensues.

I know the controllers are doing the best they can and have limited airspace with which to work us. It takes a lot of extra radio time to explain to them that we would prefer not to accept 220, 180, 160. Wouldn't it be better to just plan 777-300s based on 230, 190, 170 ? It would save a lot of extra radio calls and reduce the number of go-arounds.



TP

From my experience on the line, speed control has become a mantra that the DXB controllers sing, sometimes with little awareness of actual relative velocities. The difference between doing 160 and 170kts over a distance of 4 miles is bu**er all squared. I follow ATC's speed instructions as best I can, but sometimes common sense and airmanship has to prevail.

alternative
 

Alternatively, just comply instead of lengthy radio explainations. After all dropping the gear and doing 154 or 160 for the rest of the flight only entails an additional burn of about 2 to 3 hundred. We burn that much just to speed up 1 minute!

TP, just fly 169 kts, like Ruserious says the difference over 6 miles is bugger all. Saves lengthy explanations over the RT. Maybe someday we can do some jollies for the ATCO's in DXB, and maybe they will understand the issues different aircraft face on approach.

EGGW

Kamelf, (love the handle, by the way), you may have misunderstood. With the 777, it's quite normal to find yourself landing at or very near Max Landing Weight into Dubai after carrying minimum fuel from your departure point. It has something to do with how clever those folks in Seatttle were in designing the aeroplane and how clever those people in EK Commercial Dept are in filling it to the optimum with payload.

Roll on the ATCO famil flights, I say. I thought they'd been approved some months ago, but as far as I'm aware, they haven't started yet.

I realise TP you are rule bound and not flexible enough to simply fly a couple knots faster however why dont you ask your mate BM's alter ego to go in and see the boss about your speed problem.I'm sure the management hasn't the inclination to bother with your written requests.By the way we hardly ever land at max landing weight in DXB

I'll ignore your childish attempts at winding me up := .

You may be flying different flights than me, If it's not 169 then its 168, 167, 166. The point is it isn't 160 that we can do and it isn't good to fudge. If you accept 160 that is what ATC expects you to be flying. Any ATCOs please chime in if I'm wrong in that statement.

TP

Oh, and I thought I was the only one getting bored in Dubai.......

You heard of "operational flexibility" ??

Hey Paco, if you are listening to these pilots at your radar screen, could you please decipher this puzzle and give them some peace?

Now I will go do my FCOM revisions.......

...and yes, I am 17 by the way :)

Typhoon you are a joke and the only child around here. If we were all as inflexible as you the A/C wouldn't get of the ground. Try for once to take your company hat off and think like a real pilot and give the professionals in ATC some flexibility. They are well aware of what you can and can’t do.

:D :D :D
Once a Frankfurt Director was VERY clear and loud about this. Eversince I make all of my best efforts to ensure that things go exactly that way. Albeit my cockpit voting percentage is 0. If I want ATC to be considerate I must not cut any corners, catch 22. It may not be apparent at first glance yet the easiest way to achieve things is by the book.
Cheers, FD
(the un-real)

Do you also expect to be +/- 5 NMs separated to other traffic??? :E

Just fly the speed given!

Aircraft no. 1: 160 kts becomes 155 kts and
Aircraft no. 2: 160 kts becomes 165 kts

No. 2 is 10 kts faster, not a lot but that's 1/2 NM in 3 mins = loss of separation! If you have to space them tight

Tell us your speed (e.g. 170kts) early enough and we'll make it happen some how

SCARY
 

A little bit off the thread but...After going into Khartoum today, you won't hear me complaining about ATC anywhere else!!:eek:

Thanks for the answer Tivoli.

This from another ATCO:

"To be very straight, I'd expect you to fly 180 to 10 miles and 160 to 4 miles. If I assign 160, why would you only slow to 170?

Now, to be totally honest, it's hard to tell from my seat if someone assigned 190 for instance is actually flying 190, or 200 or 180 for that matter.

But in the middle of a tight sequence, where everyone's playing nice, assigned and flying the same speed, except for one... guess who gets pulled out if it doesn't work? Or guess who everyone gets to thank when I have to start assigning "final approach speed" 15 miles from the airport?

Now I do realize that there are human factors, fudge factors and everything else involved, but I expect you to fly the assigned speed as closely as you can.

The airport I do approach control for has essentially a single runway, and we are asked to provide gaps for departures by the tower when they need it. This has us slowing aircraft to 170 20 miles out or so, to hold a six mile gap or so with the preceding aircraft who's going to slow drastically once within about 5 miles of the field."


So guys, instead of fudging it by up to 9 knots why don't we help out the ATCOs by telling them exactly what we can do. If EVERYBODY did that then maybe they would start to use 170, 190, 230 when necessary.


Typhoonpilot

I loved this comment! As an Approach Controller in DXB, I usually finish my understaffed 9 hour midnight shift, and rush home to firstly compute minimum clean speeds for not only 777-300, but also IL76's, F50's and even the odd PA28, from any point within 20 miles of Dubai, all dependent on their weight of course. I then (this is before I get sleeping mind you) load all these parameters into flight simulator 95 (Can't afford the lastest version) and do practice approaches into Dubai, wearing nothing but my Captains hat, listening to "Learn to Fly" by the Foo Fighters, dreaming I too could one day be a pilot and get that cool 50% discount card for the cyclone! ...

I think I speak for a lot of the controllers here, our f-in hands are tied by all the crap going on here. If you are working arrival and fail to say "180 to 10, 160 to 4", any fellow controller in the room who is "Dual Validated (tower and approach) will then start to choke u with their headset wires... and tell u to go work upstairs in the tower when a 777 is bearing down at "170kts" not "160kts" on AeroAsia who is trying to find the "on" switch for his airplane while lined up for takeoff....

Point is if we say 160, it's because that's what the guy ahead is doing, and tower is busy puckering their sphinxter to get a departure off in between. So if u could be so bothered please, feel free to use airbrakes, flaps, landing gear, parachutes, hands out of open windows, whatever slows u down, your choice, we're easy, but if u get too close to the guy ahead, you're going to go around, and not only you, but also add a couple of laps to your good friends doing gulf sightseeing tours at Desdi and Bubin... and then all u boys/girls of the skies will get home that much later and not be able to play your ATC/Tracon simulator games...

:cool: Post of the week award - thanks futr-kofeshop-dweler - you made our day :ok: 4HP

Time out for a group hug.

I have to say that one thing that has improved enormously in DXB, (thanks to necessity with the single runway ops), is ATC allowing aircraft to depart with aircraft relatively close in on finals. 12 months ago, you'd sit at the holding point and wait if an aircraft was 10 miles out when you called ready. Today, they'll let you go with just enough spacing to have the other guy at 200' as you rotate - and it works.

Despite the few who've admitted here that they think they know better and just fly the speed they want to rather than that assigned, the Approach controllers seem to have got the spacing down almost if not equal to Heathrow spacing, with the No 2 getting landing clearance about as late as is comfortable as the No 1 clears the runway. Again, it usually works very nicely, (unless some clown doesn't read his Notams and tries to clear at M6).

Now for the sting in my message: I really wish I was getting that late landing clearance with about 800 kgs more fuel in my tanks than I usually have coming into Dubai (and would have at most other ports we operate into) thanks to the cross country vectoring and the too early descent points that result in anything but constant descents into Dubai.

Please, give us holding patterns close enough to the field so that we can stay clean until we need to dirty up for landing. And please give us descent points that will allow a constant descent - and delayed descent points if holding is expected. The F270 requirement 20 miles before ORSAR or the UAE FIR boundary must be costing every airline using Dubai a fortune in unnecessary fuel burn.

Maybe some A330 pilots would like to put in their tuppence worth on how 160 kts at 10nm is TOO FAST when there is anything over a 5 kt tailwind :rolleyes:

Oh the fun we are going to have when the A380 arrives.

When we eventually get 2 Rwys we will be able to use 1 for Airbus a/c and 1 for Boeing, that should solve it.:)

PS our LVO ops are based on a/c doing 160 kts from 15 miles !!

Thanks for the appreciation shown, as you say a landing clce as you cross the Threshold is as tight as it can possibly get, unfortunately there have been several Go Aounds recently due to, dare I say B777s being considerably slower than A330s on vacating the Rwy:hmm:

For our benefit could somebody clarify what exactly is an acceptable speed for taking a high speed turn off at?

Finally you, me, the cleaners and caterers all know the benefit of having closer holds, but it hasn't quite seeped thru to GCAA yet.

Our Hands Are Tied:ugh:

60kts if you dare, for a high speed turn. 30kts if you are the average man...:8

my hands are tied
 

***Finally you, me, the cleaners and caterers all know the benefit of having closer holds, but it hasn't quite seeped thru to GCAA yet.***

I have only been in UAE a short while, so I'll let Air No services take up the cudgels on this...but to all the other pilots out there, you get pushed down so that the UAE controllers have a fighting chance to get you down into the hold. DESDI is after all only about 40 miles from touch on 12.
We simply can't have you guys slowly wandering down in the hold from FL350 and have you expect to get ahead of the guy below you in the pattern...West sector can only hav 6 in the hold, North overlies this and also has sector capacities that regularly are exceeded.
When that occurs, some are taken over to BUBIN and some are held out of UAE airspace.
With Dubai apporach regularly asking for more than the agreed 20nm (yes, that's right sportsfans 20nm in trail between 1730 and 2230) the holds fill up pretty quickly AND take a long time to clear.
So if yo go back a place in the sequence because you won't descend fast enough, every spot back is at least 20nm extra.

We in the UAE are TOLD what spacing to give...so can you save your grumbling for when you arrive on 124.9? thanks:E

Must be about that time when we mention what a great idea it would be for DXB app to controll the holds at Bub and Desdi. :ugh:

Maybe Santa might bring it for Christmas

Don

Can I ask if it wouldn't be too hard to give us an extra 1/2 mile on the downwind and then 170 instead of 160? Wouldn't that make both parties happy and accomplish the same goal?

I appreciate that you guys/girls work hard and do the best you can. Honestly I don't know if you are aware of the manuevering speeds of all aircraft or not. One of the purposes in starting this thread was to generate a discussion and help the situation. Not to mention venting the frustration of having to throw the gear out at 15 miles the previous night.

I'm hoping this thread can help both sides. Please be aware of some of our limitations and help us out when you can. If we say min clean speed is 227 then that means 187 and 167 will be a lot more acceptable to us than 180 and 160. Also this thread may make quite a few guys think twice before accepting a speed they don't intend to fly. That will make your life easier in the long run.


Typhoonpilot

futr-kofeshop-dweler
Hands down best ATCO reply in the last millennium.

Could the mod turn this thread into a poll on who would or would not like to see close in holding introduced?

Maybe some brave young ATCO down in AUH could then show the Great Dane the result. Let me be the first to vote.

Yes please.

I'd suggest a new thread, started as a poll - please feel free to launch it. 4HP

Ok one thing at a time. To the guy complaining about getting "pushed" down to be FL270 20 NM Nth of ORSAR. Have a chat to some A330 pilots at your airline who are complaining about being held up at FL270 20 NM nth of ORSAR. If we let everyone fly their own profile we would have Emirates A330's dragging their belly at 10 thousand 60 NM from touchdown while the 767 behind is FL250 70 NM from touchdown. You guys ever tried to hold your spacing with 15,000 ft difference in the height, and subsequently about 120 KT's difference in ground speed. Second big consideration in getting you maintaining 20 NM nth of ORSAR is cos Tehran has a history of assigning to aircraft on top of each other both descent and "inshallah" it will work. They then hand the S**T fight over to us with no separation. If you doubt it ask some of your fellow pilots who have first hand been on the recieving end of Tehran when they have "lost the plot". Because of this history we require all aircraft to or from Tehran to be in level flight maintaining a vertically separated standard level. It may cost you extra fuel, but whats the cost of the alternative?

Now onto the one about Dubai controlling the hold. First off for them to control the hold wouldn't they first have to actually look out that far??? Look they are welcome to have the hold but the fact that some nights the hold is up to FL300 and mixing with the overflyers may make that a little difficult. If you have a problem with how we manage the hold you tell us please. Currently we get told by Dubai what spacing they require. We hold you to achieve that spacing. We hand the aircraft off spaced by that amount. Now if Dubai know better when to bring aircraft out of the hold, maybe they could enlighten us and we could do it. As I said though Dubai is more than welcome to take our holds, but how that would help, I'm not sure, and I'm not sure they actually want the hold.

Finally about flying 169 KT's when told to fly 160 KT's. If someone flys 259 Kt's when I have told them to fly 250 Kt's and due to this 9 Kt's closing I lose my spacing, I won't care, but the guy "cheating" will be given vectors at best, and holds at worst. It's their choice. Easier all round to tell us you can't do it, and we will see what we can do.

Anyway sorry for the thread creep, back to 160 KT's on final.

I was hoping that if DXB controlled the holds we could avoid the slow cross country zig zag journey that we follow from the hold to the runway. Seems its not to be.

Don

other airspaces have to deal with different aircraft types aswell and even 330'ies can fly 3deg paths with adequately trained jockeys and appropriate sop's. so that's not the problem.
it's basically about control and coordination. as long as three to five proud acc's mingle in a airspace of suitable size for only one, nothing will improve. especially if one neighbour, signing the paycheck of the big viking, enjoys spoiling the party of it's hated northern competitor.
the only viable solution would be one control for the uae. but as the probability to this happening is as high as ey and ek will ever join forces, we'll keep on enjoying the local rivalry from the cyclone over sheik zayed road right down to desdi.
keep it safe
ttn

Sorry boys, didn't mean to be a beeyatch last night, but when I read,

"The problem is thus: A Boeing 777-300 at max landing weight ( which is what we often arrive at ) has a min clean speed of 229 knots; flaps 5 speed of 189 knots; and flaps 15/20 speed of 169 knots."

I just kinda lost it... U can imagine all us controllers this morning by the water cooler (we can actually afford one of those) saying "Awww poor guy had to take out landing gear". But know this, we (ATC) do kinda understand what you guys have to go thru, and MOST of us, try to give reasonable clearances, with the expectation that if you can't do it, you'll tell us.

I came from YVR, where we had 170 to 4 miles, and it worked like a peach, but it was at an airport that was designed to handle more then 3 jets and a helicopter at any given time. Coming here was definitely my version of S&M. DXB is not able to handle any moderate levels of traffic right now, when it gets busy, we have to bring everything to a grinding halt, we have no choice.

When it's busy, and we should be getting more expeditious, all our procedures handcuff us. If someone up in mgmtville said something like "no departures for the next 60 minutes" we could then open up director, and pack arrivals in 3 - 4 miles apart and completely eliminate the need for UAE to hold most of u guys. But the second you make the tower have to blend in the 8 guys taxiing for departure, that's it, it becomes a gong show... and it happens every night, all night.

The worst part of it all, is when you try to be expeditious, if you have any sort of screw up, you're given a minimum 6 day "Walk in Zabeel Park" (a.k.a "Retraining"). TPilot, Imagine u do 169 kts instead of 160 and when u park your 777-300 there's someone with a clipboard waiting, who has been watching u, and he escorts u for your 60 lashings in front of all your friends.

Yup, there are so many different people here with good, valid, workable ideas, but it makes no difference...

So what can I personally do? I will try to give 9 miles, for u 777 boys, to do 170 to 4, but know that there will be times where I can't. I successfully gave a hold at the SHJ VOR to a GXA until the weather in SHJ cleared this morning, and he almost did it, so I now believe I can do anything in this world... even land my 777 at DXB on Simulator 95, while ling ling and Zsa Zsa ask me where I got that crazy captians hat...

See ya!

I new there had to be a function for my Captains hat, its bu**er all use for anything else
Thought you were claiming to be impoverished.....

YVR, now that's an airport:ok:

As an end user, I don't give a rotund rodent's rectum who is the provider of that service. I'd just like whomever that provider is to give me something closer to the service I receive in most other places I take my bosses' big while shiny jet to.

The current holding patterns for Dubai are simply too far away from the airfield, and the cross country marathons we are asked to undertake after leaving the holds (or do instead of entering the holds) gobble up too much fuel. This is not necessarily because of the length of the post holding (or instead of holding) vectoring, but moreso because of the frequent level offs required and the too early reductions in speed to below 230 knots that are all too often required of us.

It will come as no surprise to most ATCOs reading this thread that EK pilots have come under some perssure recently to reduce unnecessary fuel uplift to a minimum. This has resulted in most EK pilots having very little fuel to play with on arrival into Dubai, and with the stop-start descents and slow down/go faster speed control we so often experience after leaving Dubai's far away holds, it's simply not possible to calculate with any degree of accuracy how much we're going to burn to touchdown. I'm sure I'm not the only one who allows for a far higher fuel burn ex the hold in Dubai than for any other port in our network.

Great thread, and the usual stuff about speeds and holds. Just left dubai and back working at the busy single runway place in the south east of England. a pleasure to have control of the holds 20 miles from the airport, be able to do CDA's and control aircraft that comply with speeds on final approach!!!

However if you ask, we in ATC are flexible enough to accommodate, as are the ATCO's in Dubai. However have as Futre Kofe shop dweller stated very amusingly, Dubai is totally under staffed and are working (as we all know), with totally crap procedures.

Not had any requests from Emirates regarding speeds into EGKK yet, why?

Because we are all so happy to come to one of the best controlled airports in the world, were everything is predictable and smooth, there is just no need to ask for anything.
What really impresses me about EGKK is that even when things go slightly wrong (which is not often) the controllers maintain their calm demeanor and just sort it out. None of the over excitable nonsense we experience on a daily basis elsewhere.

Holding, if I had to choose. The current procedures are better. Why you ask.

Because of the distance from the airfield we are able to hold at a higher altitude which if I remember correctly is more efficient.

It almost always leads to a continuous descent while holding which is in my opinion more efficient.

If holding for a time that exceeds my fuel requirements I can divert to an alternate airfield without having to use more fuel to climb to a suitable altitude, again more efficient.

If I do have to divert it it more likely that i will get a more direct routing. If the hold is close to Dubai fuel will be burned having to exit the complex airspace and no doubt a continuous climb to altitude would be interrupted on the way to the alternate. At desdi an almost direct route to auh with continuous descent is likely. From Bubin the same could be said for Muscat or others.

I'm not sure but i think the holding airspace is larger then it would be in close thus allowing more flexibility for extended outbound legs which is more efficient.

Don't change it.

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Classic - I always - (even in my most self involved moments; fyndraai and final approach usually )- knew that ATC 's were people with a sense of humour and more than just ME on their radar. Now its confirmed!:D

Hi Airbus 757,

holding at high altitude makes very little difference to the fuel flow in the Boeing 777.

As an example, in a B773 at a weight of 220 tons:

At 1500 ft the fuel flow is 6640 kg per hour, or 111 kg per minute.

At 30 000 ft the fuel flow is 6460 kg per hour or 108 per minute.

20 000 ft seems a good average, with a fuel flow of 6180 kgs per hour or 103 kg per minute.

Rgds.

I frequently arrive at major airfields such as DBX,AMS,LHR etc. at a landing weight of approx. 300 tonnes, which if using Flaps 25, requires a Vref of 164kts (+5, =approach speed of 169 kts). I always inform ATC approach on 1st contact with my minimum speed to touchdown of 170 kts and have never had a problem. If you need a higher speed than 160 kts, why not inform ATC as early as possible, about your requirements? They're nice people, really!

khaosai,

Similar on the bus. I think the sweet spot is about 23000.

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