Requirements for seperation: why do pilots ignore them
 

Please all you pilots out there could you explain this one to me? :}

Over the last few days have issued requirements to pilots for seperation only to have 90% of them not complied with. The excuses ranged from "we couldn't see the other guy so we didn't bother complying as didn't see the need" to "cant you move the other a/c" the classic "sorry we hoped you wouldn't notice" and my favorite " we thought it was optional":{

Now I dont know about you but if someone said to me be at this level at this point so you dont have a TCAS RA/hit with someone else I would move heaven and earth to do it. Are these pilots just so stupid that they shouldn't be given sharp instruments let alone fly a plane or do they truely think they are the only a/c in the sky and they can do whatever they want??

The worst offenders were QTR followed by GFA then the cargo UAE planes. :mad:

What would it take for these guys to take their job seriously?:confused: Its also interesting to note that these are the same pilots that are complete idiots when it comes to R/T.:mad:

Please explain this to me as i just dont understand how they can be that unproffesional.:*

It might be like the Indians in their Echo's: They just can't do any better.
But I suspect it's more like "... I couldn't care less...." because all these guys get shafted from all sides day in and day out.
As you said "very unproffesional" - or is it unprofessional?

give us the source of your information, so we can judge ourself.

a very proud Gulf Air pilot.

boeingdriverx not quite sure what you mean. :confused:

Are you wanting that information while flying(ie what the other traffic is) to see whether it is a genuine requirement or if its worth meeting the requirement? or are you refering to the 90% and how I arrived at that figure?

If its the first I can only speak for myself in that everytime I give a requirement for seperation I give the requirement as well as the traffic you are being seperated from. I make sure the requirement can be realistically met and if not then use another form of seperation. Others just give you the requirement and expect you to comply and if you cant then do the same and find another way. ATC don't give seperation requirements just for fun, we give it due to traffic so that seperation is maintained and we can all go home at the end of the day.

If its the second point, on my last shift 13 requirements were issued for seperation from other a/c and 11 times the pilots failed to comply and failed to advise me. Even when asked multiple times to confirm that they would make it they they replied that they would make it with ease etc etc then failed miserably to meet it. They consisted of 6xQTR 3xGFA 2xUAE cargo. This is just the failure to comply when other a/c are involved. I lose count of the ammount of times per shift that a/c fail to meet the height requirements on the STARS and the issued height requirement at DUMPI.

As always its not all pilots who do this and as with the R/T issue it is only a small portion of pilots that are unable to fly in a safe and professional manner. But when those pilots make up a large portion of your extra workload with their poor airmanship it tends to stand out. As a pilot it also must concern you that the other a/c that I am giving requirements to so they dont come near you, cant be bothered complying with them and is not only putting my job on the line but you life and the life of all on board at risk.:(

Hope this helps.

Ali Bin Somewhere,
Who knows, a little refresher on ATC procedures, back to basics, would not hurt from time to time.
I fly into Dubai very often as a GF pilot(so I might be one of the culprits:E ),
and let me tell you that I enjoy the clear instructions and precise vectoring we get there 98% of the time, however, sometimes it seems that you guys are unaware of aircraft or human performance (which I just can not believe) like how many miles a medium or a heavy jet needs to decelerate or loose height.
One of the worst instructions we have to comply with is:"Increase rate of descent and reduce speed to ... kts" sometimes the voice gives away like we are expected to do it "NOW".
Then, please correct me if I am wrong but once I get a heading and an altitude, I am not flying the SID or the STAR anymore, therefore I will not comply with an SID or STAR altitude or speed restriction, I mean I am not supposed to or am I ?
The other day I had an instruction to turn left direct RANBI after a 30L dep out of Dubai, because of flight plan leg sequencing of the FMGS, it took us several seconds(!) to get the plane fly to RANBI, in order to have one of your colleagues in the next second almost yelling at us:"Are you turning left to RANBI as instructed ONE MILE AGO !!!!!"
Come on ! At that stage we are flying 4NM/minute, "one mile ago" was 15 seconds ago, please be a little bit more patient, it could have been an FMGS failure, which could have "delayed" somewhat the execution of the ATC instruction.

Hi Ali,
I'm a GF pilot and I understand your frustation. Except from Dxb and Auh, it is very seldom that ATC is gonna give us speed control. Therefore, we have to do our own "energy management" the best we can, playing with the speed.
When ATC gives me speed control, I follow it. Some collegues don't.
However, I have an understanding for why some guys are reluctant to follow certain clearances. Some factors decrease the confidence in the system:
- you call 2, 3 times until you get a response,
- we have to keep prompting for further descend and climb, while there is no other conflicting traffic,
- please switch off the red bars if you line us up on the active rwy,
- should I mention radar vectors in BAH?
I think, or I hope, that gradually, both sides will be doing a more professional job.
I heard some chew ups a couple of times in some other frequencies in Europe:
"xxx 123, if you cannot keep 220 kts, I will have to take you out of the sequence."
"xxx 123, next time you reduce the speed you have to advise me, there is traffic behind you with minimum separation".
Cheers.

Hi Ali,

I work next door to you but don't find non-compliance with instructions so bad here. Having said that, we have awful problems with people either not listening at all or listening but not comprehending/reading back. I don't mind if the radio's hard to hear and pilot's tell me that, but don't come back half a dozen times with variations of clearances I've issued without a good excuse. These days, we haven't got time for that nonsense.

I also have the dubious privilege of sitting next to controllers who issue less-than-stellar instructions and you can hear the deafening silence of our pilot bretheren who are completely underwhelmed by such clearances, so I can well understand the view from the other side of the radar screen.

On another note, as a matter of professional pride, I have to point out that every controller should spell separation correctly; after all, it is what we're paid to provide!:ok:

This might also be a good time to bring up the fact that the majority of ATCO's in the Gulf don't seem to know the difference between min clean and min approach speed. Some day I am going to reduce to min approach when asked and see how doing 140kts at 60nm screws up your sequence. It cuts both ways and you can't have it every way. Also while we are axe grinding most jets can either go down OR slow down but they can't effectively do both together. Make up your minds when asking to expedite descent and reduce speed cause one of them ain't gonna happen.

Sorry no excuse for my bad spelling. But you will be pleased to know I separate much better then I spell.
Yes I have to agree wholeheartedly that there are some very average controllers who give some horrible instructions like speed and rate of decent at same time etc etc. They seem to have no understanding that it takes alot of time to turn an a/c or slow it down. So a refresher course on a/c performance would be a great thing.
Soft Altitude yes you are right. When you are on a vector you are not flying the STAR/SID but once given own nav and and resume star then you have to comply. As I said before there are some very average instructions given but by the same token I don't really believe that it takes 50nm to slow from 290ias to 250ias as often seems the case when pilots feel we are unfairly delaying them.:suspect:
LDG NO BLUE I do see that there are some problems with confidence in the system but we have the same problems as you. Like the QTR pilot who called with the phrase "center morning" no callsign no level. When asked who was calling the response was "its QTR here" no number no level . Asked which QTR as there were 3 inbound at the same time got the callsign code tracking estimate destination, but still no level. Eventually got level out of him but for the rest of the flight it took at least 3 calls to get him to listen/respond. And this was one of the pilots who missed the requirement by 6000+ ft..... would you be confident trying to control a/c who were that bad? As far as prompting for decent/climb there are not just a/c restrictions but there are also airspace restrictions. Often the delay in giving you what you want is not evident but in reality we are working hard with co-ordination and strip board trying to get what you want before you ask for it. One of the other threads discussed up the whole flightdeck visits etc but it would also help if you guys came into the center to see what it is like for us. You would learn alot and see just how busy it is. :ok:
ATCO1962 spelling issues noted and will try harder in the future.:(
But still no real answer as to why requirements seem optional to some pilots??

You are right, some ATCO's don't understand the limitations of aircraft and need to be told so if they need to get you down, they need to let you out on the speed, or they keep you going at your current speed and descent rate and give you extra track miles to compensate for the increased ground speed due to the high winds you are still in. Either way though, you are flying the plane, and I would expect that if I give you something you find difficult or impossible to do (which I try not to do), that you would tell me.

What Ali is getting at is a very serious issue here in the Gulf. I very nearly had a very nasty one over Sharjah the other day between a QTR A330 and a BAW 747. The BAW 747 was maintaining FL380, and so the QTR out of Doha, eastbound to India somewhere, was initially climbed to FL370. With approximately 6 minutes to the cross and the QTR approaching FL350, I asked the pilot what his climb rate was and he told me 1000ft a minute. I asked him if he could maintain that climb rate until maintaining FL390 (his requested level). He said he could, so he was climbed to FL390 with the requirement to maintain a rate of climb of 1,000 ft or more until maintaining FL390. At FL376 he stopped climbing. He went 4 paints, about 15 seconds with no change in altitude. I asked him his climb rate and without even sounding apologetic he happily replied, 300 ft a minute. When queried about the requirement he replied again very nonchalantly that "well we are struggling to climb now so we had to reduce our rate of climb".

Now on this same sector we quite often have 5 or 6 aircraft on vectors for sequencing into Dubai, so we are not able to vigilantly monitor the meeting of requirements as we would like to. Because of this we need pilots to meet the requirements given to them, and if unable to make them to tell us in a timely manner. Is this an unreasonable expectation????

BTW, on having a new A-hole torn for him, the QTR amazingly found the ability to climb again and I maintained a standard, but after lots of sweating. Just not good enough. Not here or anywhere else. But if QTR (and yes GFA) are wanting to be world class airlines then they need to lift their standards dramatically.

Great thread :ok: this communication is productive; whilst not all of the regions pilots frequent this site, I'm sure that this type of interaction will achieve far more than the old inter-agency letter writing which never achieved much.

4HP

Hey Lads

Go ahead with ......... the perhaps correct attacking .....

but please be more specific

like A./C Type not just airline name

Some of us are trying to clean up the Act

so specifics will help

S.L. .............. A G.T. Guy whom i'm sure you know

Ali Bin Somewhere, well I am very sorry to hear about QR (but somehow it doesn't surprise me) not complying with the instructions, given by you. To answer your question: Your issued instructions are a MUST and nothing else and if not able to comply a pilot must inform ATC. Anything else is pure unprofessionalism. In my opinion you guys should treat it accordinly and inform the airline, which hopefully will take appropriate action.
Cheers.

OK, here's something specific. Martinair (B742s) from SHJ eastbound A791. They are often heavy (that much we know because they're long haul to Asia with lots of fuel and cargo) When asked if they can make their requested cruising level by the boundary with Tehran, they almost always respond in the affirmative, only to find themselves several thousand feet below what Tehran is expecting them at and meaning a hurried call (read-apology) to the Tehran controller. This happens about once a shift cycle.

Now I know some of those Classics haven't got the kind of kit that some of the newer types have but please, if you have any doubt about your ability to make a level or to comply with any instruction whatsoever, please be honest enough to just say "Unable to comply" or words to that effect. I'd much rather make an extra call to co-ordinate or have the chance to make alternative separation arrangements than have to endure a near miss or do the sweating that ANSA alludes to.

For those of you who are already giving us precise and honest feedback(you know who you are), it's a pleasure doing business with you.

Safe flying!

Dear Ali,

Thank you for clarification. I was interested in knowing how you arrived to these figures...

I really think that both sides (Pilots / ATCOs) have their issues, and the best is to discuss it like we do it now. Again, we are all humans and we make errors sometimes because we get fatigued / bored. So please get the whole picture here again.

Few months ago, some AUH controller started a very good thread here on pprune about AUH procedures. And till today I try to keep these "guidelines" in mind (like stating your callsign when you vacate the runway in AUH). Communication is the way!

So if we were in a perfect world what will be high on your wish list Ali?

cheers
BD

Report it!
 

Dear Ali and al,
I would be grateful if ATC would report these non-compliances to the company, regulatory agencies. That way, corrective measures can be taken.
Please, report it. No kidding.
As for desced and reduce, I understand that in major hubs, aircraft performance is sacrificed in detriment of traffic flow. Sometimes you have to open speedbrakes to get the cleared speed and altitude, and later you may find yourself high on profile. I have no problem with that, I don't ask why and I will not ask for further descend.
Quoting Doc 4444 PANS-ATM- 4.6.3.4:
"Instructions for an aircraft to simultaneously maintain a high rate of descend and reduce its speed should be avoided as such manoeuvres are normally not compatible."
Cheers.

boeingdriverx the 2 top things on my wishlist are as follows


1) Callsign and level (if maintaining) or level passing and assigned level (if on climb/decent). If you give me more then that I wont complain, we dont need it but I wont complain but callsign and level is the min required for EVERY frequency change.

2)Either comply with the instruction given or tell me you cant. It doesn't matter how insignificant it seems to you, but the requirement is there for a reason and for safety reasons I need to know if you cant do it. It makes my job much easier and your flight lots safer if you are honest and tell me you can't comply. The earlier you tell me the more time it gives to do something else instead of a last min panic to make sure we dont have a break down of separation.

There are other things but we are human and no matter how good we are there will always be minor things that we ALL ( including ATC) do either incorrectly or in a way that you are not used to. :ok:


LDG NO BLUE yes I agree that we should be putting in incident reports and there is no excuse for not doing so. From a practical point of view there are 2 points to consider.

1) It takes about 20min to do a report. I had 11 that I should have done the other night and that was not including the height requirements on the STAR and at DUMPI so thats 220min. I get 90 min on break and 90min planner (assuming I am not being used on position to help when its busy) out of a 9 hour shift. Not sure how to fit it in. :ugh:

2) Reports in the past have resulted in the grand total of nothing being done. Not blaming the safety folks here or at airlines but with pilot shortages in all the airlines would you ground/retrain someone for not making a requirement when no TCAS or break down in separation occured??:confused:

I am the first to admit that there are some very poor instructions given when it comes to sequencing and I cringe whenever I hear one being given.:uhoh: I would just say to you if presented with one of these instruction and you cant do it, tell the controller as sometimes that is the only way they learn.

Thanks to you all for replying. Hopefully it will help both pilots and ATC to improve the way we work.;)

A very intresting post indeed....

I have always wondered where this communication barrier between ATC and pilots came from while it is all so easy and simple.

I do have to say that all this non existing knowledge causes a lot of frustration and misunderstanding from both sides.

I have the impression that ATC is the little " forgotten" brother of our otherwise so professional world of aviation. ATC discipline is often far far far away, read backs are forgotten and often replaced by a much easier " roger".
We should never forget how important a correct phraseology is, vertainly in an environment like the Gulf where people from all of the world meet eachother in the air.

TCAS aswell has contributed to a false sense of security from the pilots. Who needs ATC when you have TCAS?????

WRONG: IFALPA actually issued a safety bulletin (O6SA B001) regarding TCAS where they say that in no case whatsoever TCAS should be used to arrange your own separation as a pilot. This is not how TCAS was designed. It is there to increase your awareness as a pilot and to get you out of the S**T when you are allready in it up to your nose! Nothing more nothing less.

So as a pilot ATC instructions should be followed at all times. So what if you have your doubts about the reasons? Just do it, you are only staying at the safe side of things.

We all know that as a pilot it is VERY frustrating if an ATC controller screws up your whole descent profile and your energey management plan gets thrown out while levelling off at 1500ft at 210 kts 40 NM on final. It is annoying and it feels wrong!
But its not up to us to decide there to disregard ATC instructions. Follow them , stay safe and keep in the back of your head that this was not how you planned things but hey, ATC intsructions! And most of the times I am sure they will have their reasons why to do things this way.

example: that bloody DUMPI at FL220 when coming from UAE descending into OTBD!!!! It frustrates everybody incredibly. But there must be a reason for it. Maybe if ATC would be given the opportunity to publish a reason as well as a temporarily notam I am sure a lot of people would feel much better!

I'm ATC too..

Try to file an ATC Occurrence Report every time an airline is not complying with an instruction. By time it might help since the regulator will receive an overview and statistics.

Ok a lot of paperwork but ATC is responsible for reporting action!

Be pro-active

Hello ATCOs
 

Filing an ATC Occurrence Report every time an airline is not complying with an instruction is impractical reality. If you have so many separation problems in UAE airspace, then you ought to get an outside assessment team to study the problem. It may be because of inadequate communications, inadequate training, understaffing, procedural problems, airspace infrastructure constraints or cumbersome traffic flow patterns.

More airports are being built and much more traffic is to come. It's time to sort out the separation logistics now before it gets out of hand.

Compared to traffic saturation management at airports like ATL, ORD, LAX, LHR... UAE is a small traffic problem. Some of your senior managers would be well to do in spending time at those high density centers and feel the pulse of saturation traffic management.

Nevertheless, I'm often in and out of AUH, DXB and SHJ and find all of you ATCOs doing a good job during peak traffic flows.

First of all, Glueball , UAE ACC has on average 1,300 movements a day, handled by 4 sectors, with 6 (if we are lucky) controllers rostered on, making a total of 18 controllers a day. Statistically we work more aircraft per controller than Eurocontrol. We don't have a lot of separation problems if pilots do as they are told to do. We are too busy most of the time to explain in length why we are forcing you to descend or hurrying you up on the climb. We have a very small airspace, with a lot of crossing tracks, climbing and descending mixing with overflying aircraft. On one side we have severe restrictions as to what levels we can give, and even though we are radar in some cases we have to provide 10 minutes no closing to help out FIR's down the line. We have severe in trail restrictions imposed on us from DB App, eg.straight in approach RWY12 through DESDI 20NM in trail separation required. I am not saying the airspace is perfect, but the airspace isn't the main culprit and neither is the training as the guys I work with are some of the best I have seen. It is a simple fact that traffic in the Middle East increased by over 13 per cent last year, the fastest growing region in the world, compared to the global average of 7 and a half per cent.

So, what is being asked on here is that pilots do as I am sure they have been trained to do, say there level on first contact , and if climbing or descending report the level they are passing and level climbing to. If given a requirement, either meet it or tell us they can't in a timely manner. A timely manner is, if given a requirement to make FL380 X ..... tell us approaching the previous standard level ie. FL360 at the latest so we maybe can stop you at FL360 (assuming no one else is already using that level which is a fair chance). The best answer is, before saying "yes" to the question of can you meet requirement ...., have a good hard look at it, and err on the side of safety. As has been said earlier we don't give requirements for the fun of it.

On the FL220 at DUMPI issue, QATARI 515, there are a number of reasons for this I will go through them one by one.

1. Bahrain Airspace sits above what the Doha controller controls, it avoids any unforseen problems of guys staying high and barrelling into Bahraini controlled traffic to force you down.

2. I hear you ask, why then by DUMPI and not TOSNA, the boundary. The reason is the European inbound route to AUH crosses that route at about 80 NM to run for AUH (only a guess as not at work so can't measure it), and these guys just like you need to get descent. If you stay up high as you would like, and we are on RWY 13 in AUH, we get the AUH inbound traffic about 20 NM before they cross you, and we can't get them under you. If we can't get them under you, we are having them stuck high for a long time till we can get them clear of you. The fairest thing was decided that OTBD traffic was pushed down so they were under profile, and the AUH traffic is stopped at FL230 till clear of you, making them a bit high on profile, but hopefully everyone makes it in one piece. It is a compromise, but while it seems to piss off the pilots it seems to work.

3. Before you cross the inbounds to AUH you cross the outbounds to Europe from AUH (at about DUMPI). We were having a big problem of having to hold these outbounds down underneath you and then having to scramble to get them above converging DB traffic at BALUS, and also above the OTBD traffic going to DB at FL210. By pushing inbound traffic to OTBD to FL220 it gives us a fighting chance to get the AUH outbounds above FL230 before the cross and then we are in with a chance of getting them above the next cross in about 30 or 40 NM at BALUS.

I hope that helps, you may need to get a map out to make sense of all that, but I assure you, the change makes sense and I guess it causes a little bit of pain for everyone, instead of a lot of pain for a select few.

Cheers all.:ok:

Alot of these issues of "what the hell are ATC doing that for?" are bought up in this forum and explained which is just what it was designed to do. It would also be great (and I know how hard it is to get the time to do it) if pilots could drop into the center in AUH not Dubai and have a look at what goes on here. And not just a 5min "hi how are you going" but a real visit for a couple of hours just to see what its all about.;)


But here is the thing; if you want to visit then thats great but if not then thats also fine. But be aware that we need you to make requirements or follow instructions so that we all have a fighting chance of getting home at the end of the day with life and licence intact.:ok:

Cool, a constructive bit of chatter.

Thought I might add a few bits on for those wondering why OMDB App do some "apparently" weird and wonderful things.

The level restriction inbound at Orlik, etc. What you chaps may not know, is that we have some gentleman in uniforms and flightsuits, with bits attached to their aeroplanes that may make your eyes water, batting across our airspace in a North/South direction. You are being forced below them for one.

Secondly, It also helps us try to get a bit of a "clean handoff" with the outbounds climbing to 13000' so we can hand you off to Area soonest. Think of that next time you look at your TCAS gizmo and then call passing 9000' for 13000' to say "....approaching 13000' " because you don't see any traffic.

You may have noticed that you are being vectored a bit more than usual when going to PAPAR off RWY12. That is due to a restricted piece of airspace that has been created BTN DB and SJ that is not allowed to be overflown AT ALL on departure or below 4000' on arrival or over flight. We are either trying to avoid you having to fly too many track miles and turning you before this red blob on our screens or scraping you around the outside of it and then to PAPAR. It is pain in bottom.

Thanks to the ACC guys for the increased spacing on the inbounds, it is very much appreciated. I and the rest of my watch do try to call and thank you when we see some really amazing feets, especially on nightshifts. Thanks for your calls ANSA, they too are appreciated.

The reason we need to start with big holes (15 or even 20NM), is so that we can end up with 8 to 10 miles on final to allow for the restrictions impossed by the new phase of single runway ops. Especially with RWY12 in use, the aircraft either run AAALLLLL the way to the end and turn right, or turn left and we need to make gaps to get them back across the runway and also depart another.

Please keep this a constructive thread. This may help us all till one day we can come and play at your house and you can come and play at ours. Roll-on jumpseat rides.....

Hmmm, it would seem that most of the problems lie with flights not doing what they are told to do.
Lets say the flight is departing DXB with a routing over SaudiArabia.
At some point a turn on course can be expected, and a few pilots are too busy fiddling with the FMC, not paying attention.
When the controller says 'turn' he means now, not thirty seconds later.
Turn on the approximate heading toward the fix concerned, then select 'direct to' then re-engage the FMC.
This so simple I am surprised the 'high tech' crowd gets it wrong on many occasions.
Too much heads down fiddling, with brain disengaged, if you ask me.
The ATC folks need all the help they can get.
Good grief....:oh:

Although 411A, I'll defend the pilots on this one. If I have a pilot on a heading and i need him to turn quickly to for example DESDI, I will give them a heading initially and then once turning to that heading I will then give them the track direct DESDI instruction as then they can find DESDI while in the turn. I don't expect a pilot to get a point into an FMS instantly while doing everything else, especially if they aren't completely familiar with the airspace.

Question for the Controllers: do you prefer the very first call on your frequency to be just your name plus my name eg: "Dubai Approach, Emirates432"......... or do you prefer to receive the initial call of "Dubai Approach, Emirates 432, passing level 220, descending altitude 10,000, Boeing 773, information alpha, Bubin 3T, 280 knots, heading 270?"

I have tried both (and regardless of official r/t technique) and often been asked to repeat parts of version B as not all of the info was received. Perhaps you were on the phone or otherwise engaged at the moment I called. Version A in comparison has very little info. Perhaps a compromise would suit you guys better? I seem to remember from a long time ago and very distant past, that establishing comms with the agency I am talking to was the preferred technique......

Say all again, after, over..........

cant speak for APP but as far as enroute is concerned the requirement is call with center name your name and level maintaining or level passing and assigned level if on climb/decent:ok:


ie UAE ctr Emirates432 passing FL398 decending to FL290


as i say APP require more but not 100%sure what it is so maybe 03Rnow30R can help out.

Why reporting?
 

Hello,
The idea of reporting is that the concerned airlines can identify that there is a deficiency in the R/T procedures and noncompliance to ATC clearances.

The ncs can be due to:

1) I didn't know
2) It couldn't be helped, it was not my fault
3) willful noncomplicance

The first 2 causes can be adressed via proper training where the third one is more difficult to deal with.

In DXB charts, STAR, SID and airport chart (for Jepp users), is clearly stated what they wanna hear. In Rome is something else and so is Bombay.
The rules are there, people must only comply with them. No more, no less information then required.

A healthy reporting culture allows us all to learn from mistakes without beeing afraid of reprimands (except for the willful noncompliance).


Cheers.

LDG Blue, in the UAE Centre only the coffee is allowed. SUDOKU, and crooswords, books, newspapers etc have been outlawed in the ops room, even if you are on a break. Has been that way for about 2 years now. As far as finding the time to file a report on an aircraft that failed to meet a requirement, I agree we should. You have to understand though that the supervisor of the shift has to do it. This is a guy that often is working with a crew of 5 that is running 4 sectors (and sometimes 5 if West opens or a planner is needed), and he is expected to work 2 hours on 1/2 hour off for a 9 hour shift, and then on his so called "break" catch up on all the other paperwork (which there is a lot of ie. every Non-RVSM pushdown is logged so it can be investigated), prepare the briefing for the next shift. check the emergency centre, check emergency phones, check emergency radios, answer incoming calls from all sorts, ground non RNP 5 aircraft, release these aircraft, and then maybe just maybe, have a piss and make a coffee before he plugs back in. He may also be required to be training someone, or giving someone a recency check at the same time. Now you tell me where in all this he has time to fill out an occurrence report for every aircraft that fails to follow an ATC instruction????? That is why we are trying to educate pilots on here, as to why we need them to meet the requirements and to let them know what we need them to say.

I hope all this helps.

Regarding what Dubai want on first contact.

There is a bit of a difference between what I (this my opinion) would prefer to hear and what we have to hear on first contact. The R/T gets a bit silly at nights with all the info that has to be passed according to the rules.

The most important thing for us is your level passing and cleared altitude. Even though you have been handed to us by a radar sector that has verified your mode C is correct, we run two different systems that are in no way linked, we need to verify it again. If and when we get a linked FDP and system, we should be able to do the checks on deparure and UAE on the inbounds, once only.

Here is a bit of info. Our system is designed to adjust the 1013 level transmission from your transponder to indicate altitude on our displays when you are below the transission level or altitude. The QNH is fed into the radar to allow it to do the maths. Our sytem here is set to start giving us the adjusted(corrected) display as altitude below F140. I know different airlines do it different ways. Some change to QNH once cleared to an altitude even if they are still above transission and others only once they are through it. Please give us the Level above F140'ish and altitude readouts below that. And yes we want it to the 100' please, as we have to check you are within a 200' tollerance above or below in the UAE.

This is the most important thing I want because I am in doo-doo if I have not got it ticked on my little paper strip showing it is done, the tapes can be checked too. Aircraft type too please, trust me the flightplan isn't always filed correctly and performance or wake may be completely wrong. Fortunately EK only fly heavies. Guys, "....passing ten thousand eight hundred and twenty five feet,...." thanks I can only see up to the hundreds bit.

I must say I am also guilty of not filing when pilots don't do it. Time facor, yes. I also think there must be a more constructive way of getting the problem sorted, like this forum. Filing may cause the pilot to take it the wrong way and cause more animosity than anything else. Once again that is only my opinion.

Read backs: Runway? You are supposed to, even more importantly with parallel runways as close together as ours. QNH? You are supposed to always read it back. Information Delta? Congratulations, but you are supposed to.....

Hope this is a bit more informative. :ok:

Thanks gents, it's helpful to have questions answered and this thread has been educational. Who says everything you read on Pprune is a load of CR:mad: P.........?

Sorry gentlmen, but I felt a personal attack here which I dislike, ANSA thanks for jumping in; 411A do you really think that even a novice airline pilot after a few months of line flying will not have the "witt" of turning the heading selector first then engage DIR TO a waypoint ? That really does not take much brain, I was mentioning a recalcitrant or a failed FMGS in an environment where precision flying is required, where ultimately you would need to report immediately loss of NAV capability and it was not 30 secs but less than 15! Thanks.

Hi Ali,
with due respect, there are sloppy pilots and sloppy controlers. judging from the style of your writing, it is not difficult to know which kind of controller
you are. i just hope you use better language on the radio.
:ok:

Due respect you say? So, bang goes another another thread that looked like it was being constructive.:(

POT.KETTLE.BLACK.

Is English your first language? Unless you have something constructive to add please take your personal attacks elsewhere.

Hello,

Altimeter setting:
GF has the SOP of setting QNH/QNE, as soon as cleared to an altitude, resp, FL. It's impractical to give ATC an altitude reading, without making calculations, or leaving one altimeter to QNH.
So, bear with us next time we give FL 52, climbing FL 180. At least you know I'm reading FL, right?

Having fingertip problems?
Well, I don't know the time provisions made for turning to an assigned heading, but I guess we should have the time of going "heads down", hit the DIR key and entering the required waypoint. If this time delay may cause a traffic conflict, then give us a heading like ANSA suggested.
Now, if the automation is not doing what it should, downgrade to HDG, still not happy, disconnect AP and turn the plane.

Reports:
I understand time is an issue, not to mention the headache of paperwork because of somebody elses mistakes.
Suggestion:
Write one letter to GF-HFST (Head of Flight Standards and Training), adressing the non-compliances. I'm sure the company would take actions based on such a complain. It's a systematic problem, therefore, needs to be adressed via the proper channels, despite the good intentions of this site.

Cheers.
LDG NO BLUE

Inital Radar Vectors Always Appreciated
 

Controllers should also be aware that not all of the airplanes in their piece of the sky have FMS equipment. Yes, it's true that many of the older birds still depend on prehistoric inertial navigation systems where crews must manually input coordinates of each waypoint. So, being cleared to some off route waypoint takes more than a few seconds to load, it takes a minute! :eek:

We are aware of this glueball, since we talk each day to number of Yaks, Antonov's and Illuyshin's of all kinds. That is precisely why when turning them off a heading I give them an initial heading for the fix I want them to fly and then once in the turn give them the next fix to fly to. These guys in some cases can't even tell me what their IAS is, and certainly not the MAX IAS is on descent which is what we are after since they are usually holding up the sequence behind them. The usual response to "request your maximum IAS on descent" is "1,500 ft per minute". But thats part of the job in these parts, and for the most part they do try.

As has been said earlier I hope we can keep this constructive, and rather than turning into an "us versus them" slanging match, we can come to understand the challenges we all face in our chosen job.

Would anyone on here have the influence to push for a restart to famil flights for controllers, as I think that would really help bridge the gap, and give us a chance to explain a lot of the new procedures to you, and explain why they are needed.

ali & 30r
if i have offended you plz accept my appology.
if english is my first language or not, that is irrelevent. i just hope you did not imply that only english natives are entitled to their opinion.
you guys have started a beneficial discussion to the aviation community as a whole. that is not debatable.
my resentment to your posting is the use of a strong language such as "stupid".
as to my comment of sloppy(slopy) pilots and air traffic controllers, plz do not take it personlly. you & i know there are ppl in every field who are marginally acceptable in their competence.
let us make peace and continue with a fruitfull discussion.
peace be with you all:ok: .

hai everyone,this is far most the best tread in this forum and extremely educational.well done ali.hopefully many more atc/pilots problems or doubts should be highlighted here.
been flying across this region for many years now and my opinion is that the muscat and uae controllers are execellent.they are calm,precise,positive and helpfull.
as pilots,the moment we know that we are in positive radar enviroment with good controllers,95% of our job and worries are over.some part of the world....the atc makes our already stressful job increase 10 fold.my bp just rises in certain airspace.
as for some pilots who do not adhere to constrains and atc restrictions,i believe this only accounts to less than 5% from the rest of the proffessional pilots community.
for atc guys..if you dont have the time to make a report than the effective way would be ...just tell this pilots off over the rt and educate them on the reasons...this would only take about 10secs.by doing this the same pilot will never make this mistake ever and all the guys who overhears this rt would carry this talks over beers at nightstops..the story would spread...the best education system is by the word of mouth.....
for atc guys....you guys are doing wonders..keep it up...
please write to the airlines for fam flt or even an atc classroom briefings...it would help in interaction of our delicate career.