Hi Trader

Just because we give a descent and speed instruction together, doesn't necesarilly mean we want you to do a particular one first. If I need you to, I will specify one. It just avoids an extra transmission, I can get you done in one transmission and move on to the next guy.

With regards the extended low level downwind. I understand your problem with that and I will make a point of giving a distance to base if I can, I do it already for an anticipated long downwind. We will however be forcing you down earlier on the downwind for reasons you may not be aware of, like SJ traffic head on descending above or DB traffic same on the straight in. It allows us to get you closer together using a bit of level seperation and then once you are pointing the same way descend the lot and keep the spacing with just speed control. It would be great to try to explain what we are up to every time and I am sure it would make situations make more sence, but as you know it isn't practical.

Just a few items I would like to comment on in line with this excellent thread: firstly the issue of contacting Muscat ex Mumbai FIR, the Jeppesen charts we use in the discovering airline have two frequencies in a single box for the Muscat FIR, I have been here for 3 years and I still cannot remember which freq to use when I am inbound to MCT, maybe this is a personal failing, but the other guy who has been here a lot longer seems to have the same problem. I dial up one of the freqs in the hope that I have the right one - as mentioned, we can sometimes be a long way into MCT FIR before radio contact. (when a testy Austrailian voice informs me I am on the wrong freq). Can someone explain where the MCT freq sectors go, I will note them down for future reference.

Secondly the 744 freight arm of the discovering airline is not under our SOP umbrella and we have no influence over their actions.

A suggested indication of the freighters load and subsequent performance is their final level requested, which the UAE seems to have a unique requirement for this bit of info - a 744F planning for the high 30's will have three guys and a jam sandwich onboard, low 30's: 34 racehorses 20 tonnes of mangoes and a Bentley.

Last thing, coming into DXB last night onto 30R with an A343, two outer reversers inop and a landing weight of 185 tonnes (Max 190 tonnes), ATC has had a missed app in the previous 30 mins, we are asked at 4 miles to ensure we come off at M6. We decline because of the considerations above. Then asked to expedite to M4, which was done with plenty of room from following traffic. Tower obviously not happy with us, but if this is suddenly a requirement, please let us know in plenty of time, we can then let ATC what we can actually do. Another part of the problem with the A343 it the lack of brake fans. A short stop is possible, but we have very toasty brakes on stand with a long wait for the next crew departing, not an overriding consideration obviously, but we try to get the balance right.

Landing full length at DXB
 

Ditto on 74s at max ldg weight 285, [299 on some pure freighters].

...In order to avoid excessive brake cooling times [excess of 1-hour] for the next crew to be able to initiate a quick turn, we really need full length for landing, especially in summer during high ambient temps. :{

Muscat Frequencies
 

Hey Thridle Op and anyone else that is interested....

The Muscat FIR boundary with Mumbai frequency is 123.95, that is for all points (we have multiple tranceivers) from RASKI all the way down to the Sanaa/Bahrain boundary.
128.15 can be used as a back up, as it has pretty good coverage, as does 124.7.
When entering the Muscat FIR from Karachi or Tehran FIRs, the freq is 128.15.

When entering via TOKRA (all Hajj charters take note) the freq is 124.7.

If you do wander in too far without calling, turn up the volume on 121.5, someone will be calling on it!

ATCO1962 mentioned that we are aware of the holes in coverage, but can you guys do us a favour? If we don't answer you straight away, give it a minute or so before making that call again. Many times we actually do answer as our receivers can hear your transmission, but you can't read us. Pretty frustrating to hear the "Muscat,Muscat,Muscat ever more stridently, but with hardly a pause between each attempt.
As I said with the transmitter siting, we may well be speaking to someone coming up from Africa at the Sanaa boundary, and it is well out of your VHF range. We have the dubious honour of having to dance around on the transmitters to talk to someone without everyone receiving a squeal as too many transmitters are selected in the one area.
Bear with us....

For a change I think this is a very worthwhile thread, well done all!

:ok: Hey Thridle op Des,

Just a point on the area you need to vacate the rwy!

Enough space for the one landing behind is good ,but maybe the tower needed that space to get a plane airboune to. Not to mention crossings as well.
As things are at the moment It is very tight to get planes in and out of DBX with only one rwy. If you know you are heavy rather say so i.e "request full lenght or m4" than keep us hopefull that we might get one away in the gap?

It is a pitty that the cargo boys seem to be untouchable, maybe the odd "reset" from a fellow avaitor will set them straight and put a smile on the atc's face and who knows you might just get Dct No Speed for a good chirp!

cheers

DNS:ok:

This is so nice to have this forum!:ok:

Trader, the problem we sit with at Dubai is that now that we have single rwy ops. Depending on the runway in use we need to give the tower between 8 and 10nm spacing on final to get a departure airborne. And unfortunatly we almost always have departures waiting to go. So, you do the math if there are 5 aircraft inbound, all of them more or less equal distance from the field this equate to a 40 nm final approach. In order to maintain the required 8nm spacing between the aircraft we unfortunatly need to reduce you early so we can match everybody's speed so that the gap on final does not erode. I don't like pulling your speed so early but sometimes I don't have choice:bored: By pulling your speed early it effects your descent profile, and sometimes we need you slow and we need you to get the height down (for reasons as explained by 03Rnow30R). Thanks for your input, next time I will try as you have suggested to say descent quickly and then reduce.....

Thridle, thanks for the info on the braking and cooling. Something we tend to forget.

Interesting to see there are some things coming out here that some ATC's were not aware of and I am sure the pilots can say the same. I can't comment too much on last nights experience you had, except to say if he wanted you off quick he must have been wanting to launch one in the gap. If you get handed to the tower just tell him you are planning for M4, so he can plan around it. If you need full length as most of the heavy freighters do, just let us know on approach, so we can create a big enough gap for the tower controller to use.
Cheers:ok:

To all the ATCO's who replied with the really useful info - thanks a lot. It really makes such a difference to have a professional discussion on these things and it is obvious from the various interchanges that we are seriously overdue a good forum for airspace administrators and users in the ME. There appears to be a real gulf (pun not intended!) between what we as pilots think we should get in terms of an ATS and what ATC is able to provide. The flight experience for ATC as said previously has always been really valuable, I was fortunate to fly in the LHR TMA with Midland in a previous life, the skipper was an ex ATC from LATCC and he bought his mate along for a rotation to Belfast. There was such a good interaction with some real increased awareness of each other's environment. Sadly recent events have made jumpseat flights even for such a decent cause very difficult, even the chairman of the discovering airline is not allowed on the flight deck while in UK airspace for example - wether a dispensation could be realised from the GCAA for a short Gulf flight is up for debate (they seem to hand out dispensations on more trivial matters!!)

I would be personally interested in a visit to DXB App Control (I am not trying to ignore AUH and UAE Control, but I try to minimise my trips on the SZ road) Could someone PM for an intro, I would be happy to come in for a couple of hours at one of the peak times just to see the action, I would say that as a lowly effoh, the chance of me influencing changes our end is slightly less than nil, but still valuable for me.

Thanks again for all the feedback.

Whilst we talking about Pilots/ATC, what can be done about the un-holy mess on HF in the Indian FIR especially from the Muscat area.? R/T discipline goes totally out the window, everyone is stepping, no jumping on everyone else. The result?, a huge bun-fight, just to get a word in.!!! Presumably the Indian ATC has our flight plans, secal codes etc, and presumably Muscat via tie-line gives them the FIR in,estimate. Because of the huge conjestion, surely it would be enough to give the Indian ATC on HF, the FIR IN time and FIR OUT time only. Also why all the read-backs from them? Don't know about you, but I'm sick of getting the squeaking and sqawking in my ears, when I dial an HF frequency. Surely there has to be a better way.

tic, mate there's already a way for quite a wile, namely ADS. just log in on VABF and set auto position report and that's it. There's apparently still a requirement to contact Mumbai on HF, but if you do so and tell them that you have positive contact on ADS then it should be ok. However I don't understand why not to use such wonderful tool as standard way of comm? Maybe some Indian ATC guys can shed some light? If there's a reason that's fine, but if its just out of stupidity..........!!!! :sad:
Cheers.

Sorry Popay. I don't have ADS, so it's HF for me, and seemingly 100's of others. Stipidity has nothing to do with it. If u want to insult, go ahead. I think, I asked a valid question. Be nice now!!

tic, I didn't mean you, man!! I meant VABF ATC, since they have it why not to use it? I am also quite frustrated every time to call them and hear all this crap coming back. Its like 18th century. Sorry, wasn't meant to offend you.
Cheers.

Hi guys and girls. I would just like to thank all the pilots out there who have read this forum and made my job 10 times easier. :D


I still have the night shifts to go but so far over the last 1 1/2 cycles I have only had to pull my hair out over 2 a/c not making a requirement. The r/t has improved a fair bit too with only a few pilots per hour forgetting to tell me who they are and what their level is.

The forum actually works :ok:


So thanks to you all and I hope that you have seen an improvement in the ATC from both the center and app. I know this thread has seen big discussions in at work with all the controllers.


If there are any more questions you would like answered about ATC in the UAE or if you want to visit the centers then just post or pm and we will see what we can do.;)