Emirates' WHITE pilot statistics speak themselves
 

I was reading JONLEI's comments in thread " Emirates whites only DECs" regarding discrimination at Emirates, and couldn't help
researching. I have the EK flight op magazine 'OUTER MARKER' for
autumn 2003. Turning to In,Out,Up and Across pages 29 through 35 titled 'A very warm welcome...' begins " It certainly has been an incredible task compiling the list of new joiners since the last Outer Marker magazine was published. Somebody did tell me the statistics recently and from memory we now employ over 850 pilots from 52 different countries and cabin crew from 102. All this makes for an extremelydiverse and interesting working environment. It seems there are no longer any pilots left in Canada, or so it would seem when you read through the list of recent new joiners! Did the last one to leave Canada 3000 turn the light out? Hospitality is of major importance in this part of the world and so a warm welcome is extended to you all, welcome to Emirates! "
And the above quote is followed by the snapshots of all the new joiners (F/O) along with their names, nationalities, ex employer, equipment, and position held. Now EK's own in house publication data is as follows:-
Canadians 27, British 23, Australians 22, Europeans 17, South Africans (Whites) 11, New Zealanders 6, Irish 2, USA 1, Mexico 1,
UAE 3, Indians 3, Jamaican 1, Grenadian 1.

Now doesn't this make interesting reading. Multi cultural flight deck yes, but ain't the culture and ethnicity quite a bit diluted?

Wonder how the so called champions of racial equality respond to the facts. The truth, though painful, is that the WHITE culture flourishes at Emirates. Nobody will buy the argument that EK pilots are rocket scientists. Other major carriers have equal if not more stringent operating standards than Emirates, and to say that those called for DEC selection were not selected purely due to performance criteria is a load of BS!! There is more to it than meets the eye

:yuk:

It is about time that the Emirati owners and those at the helm of affairs at EK take a closer look at their cockpit crew data bank, and then review the recent rejections of DEC candidates. Emirates has people within that are working against the company's policies and interests. Such despicable and disloyal elements need to be hunted and weeded out lest they do irreparable damage to the company's image as an equal opportunity employer.

albatross2004

You are quite right albie. We have a discriminatory recruiting process that looks very closely at your ability to work in a team, problems solving skills, aircraft operating skills, and communication skills. Those that are weak in any of these areas will not get through.

The results speak for themselves.

I shall leave you to wallow in your pit of conspiracy theories.

dmf

DMF

I am not against the selection process and the criteria to get selected at Emirates, rather the vested interest that allows bias to sway honest assessment. And pray do tell me, what would you say to someone who passes the first stage of selection ( that incidentally includes your listed criteria ) and then is left at the mercy of one individual from FLEET in the LOFT sim to grade that the gruelling and intensive 3 day assessment inclusive of Psychometrics and Interview and B-777 sim was not correct and the candidate is unsuitable.
Would you have me believe that the type SIM LOFT is the most difficult part to perform, considering that the pilot under check is type rated on the equipment. Yes one may not be flying according to EK SOP, but then one is not required to. So what is one being judged on and how, EK pilots are equally unfamiliar with other carriers' SOPs.
I am sure that an urgent review of grading standards and methods would be more in place alongwith having upright and unbiased assessors, for Emirates' selection process to be genuinely fair and transparent.

Dungfunnel

Frankly I did not quite get what you are trying to say, maybe you ought to come out of the 'dark passage' and take a reality check. You are as far detached from the truth as one possibly can be, citing diplomatic niceties and ICAO treaties as the reasons why certain states with according to you failing standards are allowed to be in the aviation business. By this token NTSB and its like worldwide would be hard pressed with time for accident investigations.
Misplaced notions will never be able to cover the naked truth that certain members of EK recruitment team are biased, and it is the dishonesty of these few that is marring an otherwise excellent selection regime.
:O :ouch: :suspect: :sad: :(

Dungfunnel

Frankly I did not quite get what you are trying to say, maybe you ought to come out of the 'dark passage' and take a reality check. You are as far detached from the truth as one possibly can be, citing diplomatic niceties and ICAO treaties as the reasons why certain states with according to you failing standards are allowed to be in the aviation business. By this token NTSB and its like worldwide would be hard pressed with time for accident investigations.
Misplaced notions will never be able to cover the naked truth that certain members of EK recruitment team are biased, and it is the dishonesty of these few that is marring an otherwise excellent selection regime.
:O :ouch: :suspect: :sad: :(

Check this thread for the real story on recruitment policies and ethnic preferences.

Alby,

You are right!! We are all biased!

I became particularly biased when I watched a type rated 310 Training Captain, crash the 310 sim during the Go-around single engined below MLW. When asked to rate his performance he went for '8, no 9 out of 10'

In contrast; flew the next slot with a young 777 rated F/O who came out of it devasted at his appalling performance. It was the best recruitment sim that I had ever seen.

All the EK sim does is makes a stab at measuring mental capacity. It is a simple profile and a type rated pilot should find it easier than an unrated guy because he isn't wasting unnecessary ergs on getting familiar with the system. The first thing that goes out of the window is self criticism.

It doesn't matter if you are black, brown, white or green. If you can fly the jet and seem like a decent bloke you'll get the job. If you can't, you won't!

By the way that wasn't me on the grassy knoll.

Ghost:zzz:

Keep it nice please guys - I nearly fell off my stool when I saw this one's title but so far you're keeping a nice discussion going; but if the wrong folk get involved on a thread like this it's going to go all bad.

Thank you; seconds out, Round Number Two!!!!

4HP

Ghostflyer,

quote

"If you can fly the jet and seem like a decent bloke you'll get the job. If you can't, you won't!"

Honestly judging flying ability is one thing but how to grade whether one is a decent bloke or not...and that too in under a 60 minute acquaintance?

So a candidate is after all at the mercy of your whims.

I wonder if your conscience ever pricks you :ouch:

I never said that all pilots at EK are biased. Please read my earlier posts.

Its only a few that are responsible for (a) thwarting company policy to induct DECs (b) furthering the cause of their brothers, that are cribbing about the presumptive delay in movement from RHS to LHS.

When this disgruntled element of the recruitment loop is taken out, Emirates' selection process will truly become transparent and fair; and the company will achieve its projected crew requirement.

Albatross

It is not just the chap who does the sim ride who has the ability to say 'No' to you joining. From the whole plethora of people who you meet during your time at interview, it only takes one to 'blackball' you.

Usually, of the two guys who sit with you in the sim, at least one of them will have met you for some prolonged period during the interview process and will have an idea of your qualities, or lack of them...........

You get looked at twice in the Sim during the DEC interviews so a better judgement of what sort of person you are can be made.

And this becomes the point where all of us become discriminatory.......the question that need an answer is: 'Would I really want to fly with this guy, and would I be prepared to let ALL of our crew members fly with him? Will he be good for the company?'

If the answer to any of these is NO then they have to, for many obvious reasons, say 'Sorry, no job for you.'

The proof of the decision is the reaction of the indivual concerned.

You quote the lack of ethnic diversity, the white majority, and biased (or discriminatory) practises in the recruiting process. I offer a suggestion that maybe, just maybe, the recruitment department got it right this time.

No on likes to be told that they don't make the grade, whatever their race colour or creed. How you take it shows your personality for what it really is.

Lecture over and awaiting a broadside.

Albatross2004, your posts are as laughable as they are inaccurate. Your accusations about the Emirates recruiting team are pretty wild.

I don't know what your agenda is but you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about biased recruiting at Emirates. My experience, and that of most other guys that have been through the process, is that recruiting at Emirates is remarkably egalitarian and the team have no particular axe to grind (as you seem to constantly imply)

Get your facts right and stop your paranoid ramblings

Show me a recruiting department anywhere that is fair, transparent and unbiased.

sheesh...

albotrass
I whole-heartedly agree with you;)
Definitely some applications are shortlised if your nationality is from a certain part of the world,however,rumour has it,the Human Resource and Personnel have the final say on the indivisual Candidate!!
With all the fiasco in the last few months,they need to retailor their safetynet!!!!!from the +20 G/A a month,the fire cargo over Madras Chenni and now JNB!! Good Luck :(

JABAL- you're wandering down the same sad road as Albie..

20+ go-arounds a month, gosh!!! Looking through the ASR's recently the vast majority of go-arounds are due to ATC instructions because the runway ahead is still occupied. I guess though that you're a landing minded kind of chappie aren't you, just got to get it on the ground however unstable you may be. Clever guy :oh: :oh:, or whatever may be in front of you. You'll find that most airlines have a lot of go-arounds flown every month.

Well done to the recruitment team for keeping idiots like you away from our aeroplanes....

Well said White Knight. There does seem to be alot of sour grapes on this thread

Sour grapes, yes it would appear so.

Albatross just what is your beef? Spit it out. Were YOU knocked back? Someone you know? What? Get it off your chest and you might make more sense.

I guess the same questions could be asked of jaba too. Like it or not that's usually what prompts comments like these.

For an airline expanding at such a rate, I think Emirates is doing extremely well. The temptation would naturally be to just employ all and sundry to get all those ordered aircraft crewed but to their credit, they are not relaxing the standards.

Sounds tough if you're knocked back but what's wrong with them maintaining a high standard?

And I bet they were glad of it too after how the JNB incident was handled by the men in the seats. Could've so easily gone the other way.

Muttley

Of course anybody who has been chosen by EK recruitment will think that EK recruitment has got it all just right.

The reality is somewhat different.

Now lets all have a group hug and build a Leggo trainset.

radnav, unfortunately most large airlines these days do the daft stuff like build lego trainsets, but I don't ever remember doing group hugs!!!! Did you have a problem putting the bits of lego together, bit hard was it?

Maybe you'd be so kind as too explain what the reality is?

Anyway, I'd better go and buy a new dress and handbag as I have a group luv-in on my roster tomorrow:{ :{

dungfunnel

"If the quality training and licencing is in the first world then the numbers of pilots in a world wide company like emirates will reflect that."

"I have personnal experience of the above at many levels "


I am indebted to you for so aptly reinforcing my argument ;)

Please do grace this thread with more of your "first world" and " personnal experience" insights :yuk:

Learning all the time :rolleyes:

Well done to the Emirates chaps on this thread - your response to the drivel been spewed out has been handled with a lot of maturity, and has left me howling with laughter at times - even dear old Mutt, just as I thought he must be brewing (and drinking) moonshine in his back garden, he comes out with a good response.

Jabal - a line from your thread "The Emirates needs to retailor their safety net" and you go on to quote two incidence: Madras Chenni and JNB. Why should they???? On both occassions the pilots got ALL passengers and crew safely on the ground, what more could you ask for. It must be sooooo easy to be judgemental on something and someone you know NOTHING about.

Albatross - it takes a REAL man to look at himself and say, maybe "I" messed up on my interview - instead of blaming it on the colour of your skin. If you came with that chip on your shoulder to the interview, it would have been picked up pretty quickly.Which is a pity, if you lose the chip on your shoulder - you probably are a really nice guy. (I think)

May your next landing be the best one yet.:ok:

wagtail23

"And this becomes the point where all of us become discriminatory.......the question that need an answer is: 'Would I really want to fly with this guy, and would I be prepared to let ALL of our crew members fly with him? Will he be good for the company?'

If the answer to any of these is NO then they have to, for many obvious reasons, say 'Sorry, no job for you.' "


Of the 2 questions that according to you (hope you are/were in the Emirates' recruitment team) need a YES as an answer for someone to qualify admission to the world's most select club i-e Emirates' cockpit crew, only the latter question holds merit. There are many a times when tolerating someone besides you in the cockpit crosses your mind, but then we all have a job to do and isn't CRM all about that? Is it possible for everybody to like or be friends with everybody?...NO sir.

So the premise that during a SIM check ride the assessor is looking for social compatability rather than good management and/or decisions that affect company ops, prestige and finances etc. is surely a stretch. The only consideration that is irrefutable is 'Will he be good for the company?'.

The social compatability bit is best left out of the SIM to the Psychometrics team, the experts in that area.

Happy landings

:D

dungfunnel

Quit thinking in a foreign language and then translating to Queen's English.

When will you make any sense?

Now don't go working overtime with your "first world" ego:zzz:

Albatross,

Having read this thread, I assume that you are a captain somewhere, live in the Uk, and failed the dec selection at emirates.

Maybe you just didnt fit in, professionally or otherwise.Maybe you were a 737 captian taking a shortcut with the 55tonnes requirement, or maybe your not as good as you think, many reasons:
I have a good firend, lots of widebody time, lots of time in a major european carrier, he is european. Guess what he didnt get in. It wasnt because he was white, but all his assessors were.Go figure.

Is your current companies demographic representative of the racial demographic in your country of employment. Try getting a job in an african airline and you'll know what discrimination is about, if you're white.

To make a valid arguement for discrimination you have to produce evidence not rant about your percieved post natal disadvantages.


chill out and move on , it doesnt sound like EK would have ben for you anyway.

Emirates selection is based on the quotient system pioneered by Wing Commander Pimpledon-symthe as follows

IQ intelligence quotient

FSQ Flying skill quotient

SSQ social skills quotient

AQ arsey quotient

Its a points system except where AQ is conserned whereby it is pass or fail.

Alby , if you did well alround then you do the math.:8 :ok: :rolleyes: :D

Albatross, please re-read your own quotes before criticising a fellow PPRuNer for their inadequate grasp of Her Majesty's language.

Mind you, I do smell a bit of a wag here as quotes such as 'the world's most select club, i.e. Emirates' cockpit crew' (corrected for grammar) are laughable at best.

With the recruitment of one certain individual recently, Emirates have definately maintained their status as an equal opportunities employer!

Albatross

Perhaps I have not made my self very clear........so I will try my best to do so.

When I said: 'Would I really want to fly with this guy, and would I be prepared to let ALL of our crew members fly with him? Will he be good for the company?'...

...I was talking from a CRM point of view, not a 'social compatability' one.

Your arguements do seem, from my perspective, just a little like 'toys-out-of-the-cot' syndrome.

Apart from that you seem a well balanced individual.....chips on both shoulders!

Added after looking at other threads on this forum

Interesting scan through some of the other threads in this forum to see that you posted on the DEC thread and wrote:

<Quote: Interesting reading and insight into the EMIRATES' mindset.

If you care to comment on a similar topic please do visit:

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showth...threadid=127104

Happy landings. Unquote>

If you had read this thread before coming for the interview, would you have come at all as you obviously don't like the 'Emirates mindset'? It seems to me that you think it is all a global conspiracy that you weren't given the job and want to rake up any old racial prejudices to prove your point.

GROW UP!

wagtail23

Thank you for your voluntary but encouraging assessment of my personality. I have not taken the Emirates' Psychometric test and can't say it endorses your views.

In the mean time I have been going through the Emirates Pilot Meeting thread and with every reading I am puzzled. The set or group of Emirates' pilots that are vociferously defending and advancing arguments here in favour of ethics and high morals within the Emirates pilot fraternity and the EK demographics representative of "first world" standards, when it comes to dollars and cents go overboard spewning venom for the company.

Shame SIR shame.

Please do not forget that it is Emirates that has given you all a job and sustains you, and you only do yourself great dis-service by washing your dirty linen in public.

I and many others may have serious reservations about some rogue elements within EK Fleet and recruitment but diatribes against your own employer is viewed as unsavoury.

Please allow me to refresh your memory by quoting from your post on 28 Feb,2004 in Emirates Pilot Meeting thread.

" Gentlemen, our esteemed EVPE&FO asked us to keep this news off Prune as it is a private issue and not for public consumption.

Well tough . I think it important that those 3000 pilots wanting to join know exactly what they're letting themselves in for if they join..............For those of you out there who think that Emirates is going to look after you and give you a good career, please think again. The management view is that you joined on your contract but it is so loose that they can change the terms of that contract and we have no comeback or representation to help air our views.

You may believe that the grass is greener over here, but with some flight deck dusting off their CVs you should get an idea of you are in for should you join."

Is your CV dusted and with the courier?

How many chips on your shoulders?

Cheers!

You wouldnt be changing the subject Albadross would you.....

Albatross2004, Obviously there are alot of diverse opinions expressed on Pprune but seldom have I seen more incoherent and rambling posts as yours. I don't think YOU know what point you are trying to make. The only impression I am left with is that you are p****d off with someone or something but I am unclear as to what precisely

Albatross

You state that you have attended the interview but not completed the Psychometric tests, but have completed the sims. I understand, but am willing to be corrected on this, that the Psych test are completed before the sim rides, usually on day 2 of the interview? So how come the mix up?

I don't think that any of those who have posted any items on this thread have made any arguements in favour of ethics or high morals. Most of us, from my reading of these posts, are defending the company from an external attack on the colour demographics of the pilot population from someone who thinks that, having attended the interview, they have a god given right to employment.

Yes Emirates does pay me a salary, but not one that could be considered sustaining as I have had to use a fair portion of my savings since moving here. As I believe others have had to if you read all the posts in that thread.

And as far as my 'spewing venom' at the company, it is the only way to let all Emirates Wannabes what they are letting themselves in for should they decide to join. HOWEVER, I am able to make this judgement from INSIDE the company, so at least my knowledge of what happened, and my arguements on which I make my points have a slightly firmer foundation than those you seem to be making.

If I can put it any simpler I will be gald to try, but I think this could be considered a reasoned arguement.

However, you will probably disagree with me, eh Albatross?

I bet all those Emirates' Spoilt Brats that were seen cribbing on Emirates' Pilot Meeting thread are scrambling over there to edit their posts :O

Atleast my friend wagtail23 has stepped down from the high altar
of morality and ethics, good show old chap :D

Oh one more thing. For the record NO I have not attended the Emirates' interview and YES it is a fine company to work for, provided those few who have made it a cool retreat for themselves and occupy positions exercise their priveleges as a trust and demonstrate tolerance, when sitting upon judgement during the recruitment process.

I am upset at the double standards. A few of my colleagues, with unblemished professional credentials have been deliberately blackballed:(

Why the shroud of secrecy regarding assessment feedbacks other than the Psychometrics? Let the selection process be transparent and the complete result told to the candidates, to put an end to controversial assessments (food for thought).:ok:

Removed as a result of being threatened with a horribe end by the original Meester Feesh!!

Come on, I was only having a joke, mate!

dungfunnel

"AS for ek as an organization well i'll be long gone before the arabs tire of me."

What makes you think that your Generous Hosts the Arabs and Emirates are not already tired of you and the likes of you?

Where and how do you see yourself fit into your "first world" scheme of things, obviously away from the Oasis wherefrom you take your comfort yet abhor its bounty?

You have no qualms crying out loud that your allegiance to the company, neither is nor will be.

The racial overtones in your posts, strengthen the thrust of my argument that some Emirates' pilots subscribe to racial prejudice while cleverly taking refuge behind the diluted ethnic diversity within the community.

Pardon my saying so, if and when you decide to leave Emirates, it will be good riddance.

Emirates purge thyself. :hmm: :cool:

Dungfunnel, check your private messages...

EM&EM a.k.a. Fish

Congratulations on the nice work in the form of Outer Marker, the quarterly magazine of Emirates' Flight Operations Department, which I found both informative and entertaining. Being no literary critic I'll suffice by saying that reading the magazine was an overall satisfying experience for me.

The magazine is not restricted for internal distribution within Emirates, as your editorial in the subject issue says "But although we have adopted a more corporate look, which is essential when one considers that the Outer Marker is distributed to other carriers worldwide.......".

I am afraid I cannot subscribe to your contention regarding copyright. The information and material contained therein is for general consumption. Therefore, your argument for removal of the excerpt from the magazine, which I have placed in my lead post, stands rebutted.

I agree that a single recruitment sample does not completely reflect the demographic representation, but it definitely coveys the trend. So for the sake of authenticity, you may provide the full demographic representation within Emirates flight deck crew, as the data is available to you. Your cooperation in this regard is solicited in order for the controversial recruitment ethics of some EK training and standard appointees under discussion here, to be seen from a more accurate perspective.

I have never insinuated that Emirates practices a racially discriminatory hiring policy. What I have been saying all along is that there exists a rogue element within Emirates’ recruitment loop. This rogue element, it appears, is at variance with Emirates' equal opportunity policy and the recruitment results of successful candidates and the demographic trend from Outer Marker substantiate the observation.

I appreciate your concern that some on the outside may have a misplaced view that Emirates is a racist company. Nevertheless, if the rogue recruitment element is left unchecked and unfettered then it will be safe to assume that it has Emirates' tacit approval. It is hoped that you and your colleagues, that are interested in seeing the highest standards of service in all spheres being synonymous with Emirates, will leave no stone unturned to correct recruitment misreporting and willful disregard of company policies. This is imperative if Emirates is to be worthy of all the accolades and awards.

Happy flying.

One of the better wind ups I have seen for a while. Well done Alby!

Anyway, as I hear it Dragonair is seen as preferable place to work these days. Can you go over to the FH forums and join in with Hong Xing - sure you two will get on great

+20 G/A a month..!thats apalling man..!Well what caused the JNB
incident?..they forgot that they were sitting on a table mountain?

Freehills

Thank you.

I'm sure there is still some breath left in this thread.

Let us hope for everybody's sake, Emirates included, that those responsible heed the facts told here and take the appropriate steps to correct the deliberate recruitment mis-reporting by EK rogue elements.

No posts about any heads rolling at Emirates. No news about withdrawal of management positions and or supervisory assignments.

Alas! the rogue element in Emirates' recruitment loop is carrying on with unjustified blackballing of suitable candidates. :mad:

FOR 4HP

I would be obliged if you can confirm and tell me if for the past few months I was banned from logging on to pprune.

If that be the case please do let me know the reason for such a ban.

I definitely could not log in previously.(maybe I p**sed some big shot moderator! for what or why beats me...so much for free speech).

No memory of any banning Albat. Welcome back - I'm sorry if your access was restricted.

Banning or restricted access occurs as the result of serious misdemeanors or repeated violations of common-sense conventions that are observed on this forum.

Can we get back to the subject now please? If you've got any more correspondence in this regard please PM me.

4HP

4HP

I have never transgressed the four corners of decorum in my posts. Regarding the restriction/banning I have put that behind me. It probably was one of the other moderators.

CAP56

Thanks for the insight into the Emirates British management and its captive local owners.

Albatross - better write and tell me a little story.

While composing you should consider this. The site is run on industrial strength unix - every single event is recorded. Every keystroke and action - the lot.

You have never written on any other forum. Why would it cross the mind of any other mod on the site to 'ban' you? Are you confusing usernames that you might have gotten you into trouble elsewhere????

If you were banned someone must have suddenly unbanned you for you to post - that is not the case. Have you reloaded your operating sytem, browser or altered privac y /firewall software settings?

If you were banned when did you work this out and how many times did you write to us regarding sorting it out between April and the present date? (Remember what I said about the unix bit and our records though.)

If you write I'll be asking you about cookies stored on your machine. As an example if using two usernames or more the inexperienced computer user can effectively ban one of their identities unknowingly. Essentially we are looking at cockup versus conspiracy.

If banned why on earth would we unban you and allow you to start posting again? While not wishing to crush you or your ego with unkindness, everyone had forgotten you existed until you revived the thread yourself.

We are not shy. Cap 56 knows he only operates here under the strictest of supervision by me or Danny. We sign with our own real names. Have a think about the foregoing and then write to me - for the first time.

Regards from the Towers
Rob Lloyd