Emirates' pilot statistics speak themselves
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Emirates' WHITE pilot statistics speak themselves
I was reading JONLEI's comments in thread " Emirates whites only DECs" regarding discrimination at Emirates, and couldn't help
researching. I have the EK flight op magazine 'OUTER MARKER' for
autumn 2003. Turning to In,Out,Up and Across pages 29 through 35 titled 'A very warm welcome...' begins " It certainly has been an incredible task compiling the list of new joiners since the last Outer Marker magazine was published. Somebody did tell me the statistics recently and from memory we now employ over 850 pilots from 52 different countries and cabin crew from 102. All this makes for an extremelydiverse and interesting working environment. It seems there are no longer any pilots left in Canada, or so it would seem when you read through the list of recent new joiners! Did the last one to leave Canada 3000 turn the light out? Hospitality is of major importance in this part of the world and so a warm welcome is extended to you all, welcome to Emirates! "
And the above quote is followed by the snapshots of all the new joiners (F/O) along with their names, nationalities, ex employer, equipment, and position held. Now EK's own in house publication data is as follows:-
Canadians 27, British 23, Australians 22, Europeans 17, South Africans (Whites) 11, New Zealanders 6, Irish 2, USA 1, Mexico 1,
UAE 3, Indians 3, Jamaican 1, Grenadian 1.
Now doesn't this make interesting reading. Multi cultural flight deck yes, but ain't the culture and ethnicity quite a bit diluted?
Wonder how the so called champions of racial equality respond to the facts. The truth, though painful, is that the WHITE culture flourishes at Emirates. Nobody will buy the argument that EK pilots are rocket scientists. Other major carriers have equal if not more stringent operating standards than Emirates, and to say that those called for DEC selection were not selected purely due to performance criteria is a load of BS!! There is more to it than meets the eye
It is about time that the Emirati owners and those at the helm of affairs at EK take a closer look at their cockpit crew data bank, and then review the recent rejections of DEC candidates. Emirates has people within that are working against the company's policies and interests. Such despicable and disloyal elements need to be hunted and weeded out lest they do irreparable damage to the company's image as an equal opportunity employer.
researching. I have the EK flight op magazine 'OUTER MARKER' for
autumn 2003. Turning to In,Out,Up and Across pages 29 through 35 titled 'A very warm welcome...' begins " It certainly has been an incredible task compiling the list of new joiners since the last Outer Marker magazine was published. Somebody did tell me the statistics recently and from memory we now employ over 850 pilots from 52 different countries and cabin crew from 102. All this makes for an extremelydiverse and interesting working environment. It seems there are no longer any pilots left in Canada, or so it would seem when you read through the list of recent new joiners! Did the last one to leave Canada 3000 turn the light out? Hospitality is of major importance in this part of the world and so a warm welcome is extended to you all, welcome to Emirates! "
And the above quote is followed by the snapshots of all the new joiners (F/O) along with their names, nationalities, ex employer, equipment, and position held. Now EK's own in house publication data is as follows:-
Canadians 27, British 23, Australians 22, Europeans 17, South Africans (Whites) 11, New Zealanders 6, Irish 2, USA 1, Mexico 1,
UAE 3, Indians 3, Jamaican 1, Grenadian 1.
Now doesn't this make interesting reading. Multi cultural flight deck yes, but ain't the culture and ethnicity quite a bit diluted?
Wonder how the so called champions of racial equality respond to the facts. The truth, though painful, is that the WHITE culture flourishes at Emirates. Nobody will buy the argument that EK pilots are rocket scientists. Other major carriers have equal if not more stringent operating standards than Emirates, and to say that those called for DEC selection were not selected purely due to performance criteria is a load of BS!! There is more to it than meets the eye
It is about time that the Emirati owners and those at the helm of affairs at EK take a closer look at their cockpit crew data bank, and then review the recent rejections of DEC candidates. Emirates has people within that are working against the company's policies and interests. Such despicable and disloyal elements need to be hunted and weeded out lest they do irreparable damage to the company's image as an equal opportunity employer.
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albatross2004
You are quite right albie. We have a discriminatory recruiting process that looks very closely at your ability to work in a team, problems solving skills, aircraft operating skills, and communication skills. Those that are weak in any of these areas will not get through.
The results speak for themselves.
I shall leave you to wallow in your pit of conspiracy theories.
dmf
You are quite right albie. We have a discriminatory recruiting process that looks very closely at your ability to work in a team, problems solving skills, aircraft operating skills, and communication skills. Those that are weak in any of these areas will not get through.
The results speak for themselves.
I shall leave you to wallow in your pit of conspiracy theories.
dmf
Last edited by druckmefunk; 19th Apr 2004 at 12:09.
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DMF
I am not against the selection process and the criteria to get selected at Emirates, rather the vested interest that allows bias to sway honest assessment. And pray do tell me, what would you say to someone who passes the first stage of selection ( that incidentally includes your listed criteria ) and then is left at the mercy of one individual from FLEET in the LOFT sim to grade that the gruelling and intensive 3 day assessment inclusive of Psychometrics and Interview and B-777 sim was not correct and the candidate is unsuitable.
Would you have me believe that the type SIM LOFT is the most difficult part to perform, considering that the pilot under check is type rated on the equipment. Yes one may not be flying according to EK SOP, but then one is not required to. So what is one being judged on and how, EK pilots are equally unfamiliar with other carriers' SOPs.
I am sure that an urgent review of grading standards and methods would be more in place alongwith having upright and unbiased assessors, for Emirates' selection process to be genuinely fair and transparent.
Dungfunnel
Frankly I did not quite get what you are trying to say, maybe you ought to come out of the 'dark passage' and take a reality check. You are as far detached from the truth as one possibly can be, citing diplomatic niceties and ICAO treaties as the reasons why certain states with according to you failing standards are allowed to be in the aviation business. By this token NTSB and its like worldwide would be hard pressed with time for accident investigations.
Misplaced notions will never be able to cover the naked truth that certain members of EK recruitment team are biased, and it is the dishonesty of these few that is marring an otherwise excellent selection regime.
Dungfunnel
Frankly I did not quite get what you are trying to say, maybe you ought to come out of the 'dark passage' and take a reality check. You are as far detached from the truth as one possibly can be, citing diplomatic niceties and ICAO treaties as the reasons why certain states with according to you failing standards are allowed to be in the aviation business. By this token NTSB and its like worldwide would be hard pressed with time for accident investigations.
Misplaced notions will never be able to cover the naked truth that certain members of EK recruitment team are biased, and it is the dishonesty of these few that is marring an otherwise excellent selection regime.
I am not against the selection process and the criteria to get selected at Emirates, rather the vested interest that allows bias to sway honest assessment. And pray do tell me, what would you say to someone who passes the first stage of selection ( that incidentally includes your listed criteria ) and then is left at the mercy of one individual from FLEET in the LOFT sim to grade that the gruelling and intensive 3 day assessment inclusive of Psychometrics and Interview and B-777 sim was not correct and the candidate is unsuitable.
Would you have me believe that the type SIM LOFT is the most difficult part to perform, considering that the pilot under check is type rated on the equipment. Yes one may not be flying according to EK SOP, but then one is not required to. So what is one being judged on and how, EK pilots are equally unfamiliar with other carriers' SOPs.
I am sure that an urgent review of grading standards and methods would be more in place alongwith having upright and unbiased assessors, for Emirates' selection process to be genuinely fair and transparent.
Dungfunnel
Frankly I did not quite get what you are trying to say, maybe you ought to come out of the 'dark passage' and take a reality check. You are as far detached from the truth as one possibly can be, citing diplomatic niceties and ICAO treaties as the reasons why certain states with according to you failing standards are allowed to be in the aviation business. By this token NTSB and its like worldwide would be hard pressed with time for accident investigations.
Misplaced notions will never be able to cover the naked truth that certain members of EK recruitment team are biased, and it is the dishonesty of these few that is marring an otherwise excellent selection regime.
Dungfunnel
Frankly I did not quite get what you are trying to say, maybe you ought to come out of the 'dark passage' and take a reality check. You are as far detached from the truth as one possibly can be, citing diplomatic niceties and ICAO treaties as the reasons why certain states with according to you failing standards are allowed to be in the aviation business. By this token NTSB and its like worldwide would be hard pressed with time for accident investigations.
Misplaced notions will never be able to cover the naked truth that certain members of EK recruitment team are biased, and it is the dishonesty of these few that is marring an otherwise excellent selection regime.
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Check this thread for the real story on recruitment policies and ethnic preferences.
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Alby,
You are right!! We are all biased!
I became particularly biased when I watched a type rated 310 Training Captain, crash the 310 sim during the Go-around single engined below MLW. When asked to rate his performance he went for '8, no 9 out of 10'
In contrast; flew the next slot with a young 777 rated F/O who came out of it devasted at his appalling performance. It was the best recruitment sim that I had ever seen.
All the EK sim does is makes a stab at measuring mental capacity. It is a simple profile and a type rated pilot should find it easier than an unrated guy because he isn't wasting unnecessary ergs on getting familiar with the system. The first thing that goes out of the window is self criticism.
It doesn't matter if you are black, brown, white or green. If you can fly the jet and seem like a decent bloke you'll get the job. If you can't, you won't!
By the way that wasn't me on the grassy knoll.
Ghost
You are right!! We are all biased!
I became particularly biased when I watched a type rated 310 Training Captain, crash the 310 sim during the Go-around single engined below MLW. When asked to rate his performance he went for '8, no 9 out of 10'
In contrast; flew the next slot with a young 777 rated F/O who came out of it devasted at his appalling performance. It was the best recruitment sim that I had ever seen.
All the EK sim does is makes a stab at measuring mental capacity. It is a simple profile and a type rated pilot should find it easier than an unrated guy because he isn't wasting unnecessary ergs on getting familiar with the system. The first thing that goes out of the window is self criticism.
It doesn't matter if you are black, brown, white or green. If you can fly the jet and seem like a decent bloke you'll get the job. If you can't, you won't!
By the way that wasn't me on the grassy knoll.
Ghost
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Keep it nice please guys - I nearly fell off my stool when I saw this one's title but so far you're keeping a nice discussion going; but if the wrong folk get involved on a thread like this it's going to go all bad.
Thank you; seconds out, Round Number Two!!!!
4HP
Thank you; seconds out, Round Number Two!!!!
4HP
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Ghostflyer,
quote
"If you can fly the jet and seem like a decent bloke you'll get the job. If you can't, you won't!"
Honestly judging flying ability is one thing but how to grade whether one is a decent bloke or not...and that too in under a 60 minute acquaintance?
So a candidate is after all at the mercy of your whims.
I wonder if your conscience ever pricks you
I never said that all pilots at EK are biased. Please read my earlier posts.
Its only a few that are responsible for (a) thwarting company policy to induct DECs (b) furthering the cause of their brothers, that are cribbing about the presumptive delay in movement from RHS to LHS.
When this disgruntled element of the recruitment loop is taken out, Emirates' selection process will truly become transparent and fair; and the company will achieve its projected crew requirement.
quote
"If you can fly the jet and seem like a decent bloke you'll get the job. If you can't, you won't!"
Honestly judging flying ability is one thing but how to grade whether one is a decent bloke or not...and that too in under a 60 minute acquaintance?
So a candidate is after all at the mercy of your whims.
I wonder if your conscience ever pricks you
I never said that all pilots at EK are biased. Please read my earlier posts.
Its only a few that are responsible for (a) thwarting company policy to induct DECs (b) furthering the cause of their brothers, that are cribbing about the presumptive delay in movement from RHS to LHS.
When this disgruntled element of the recruitment loop is taken out, Emirates' selection process will truly become transparent and fair; and the company will achieve its projected crew requirement.
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Albatross
It is not just the chap who does the sim ride who has the ability to say 'No' to you joining. From the whole plethora of people who you meet during your time at interview, it only takes one to 'blackball' you.
Usually, of the two guys who sit with you in the sim, at least one of them will have met you for some prolonged period during the interview process and will have an idea of your qualities, or lack of them...........
You get looked at twice in the Sim during the DEC interviews so a better judgement of what sort of person you are can be made.
And this becomes the point where all of us become discriminatory.......the question that need an answer is: 'Would I really want to fly with this guy, and would I be prepared to let ALL of our crew members fly with him? Will he be good for the company?'
If the answer to any of these is NO then they have to, for many obvious reasons, say 'Sorry, no job for you.'
The proof of the decision is the reaction of the indivual concerned.
You quote the lack of ethnic diversity, the white majority, and biased (or discriminatory) practises in the recruiting process. I offer a suggestion that maybe, just maybe, the recruitment department got it right this time.
No on likes to be told that they don't make the grade, whatever their race colour or creed. How you take it shows your personality for what it really is.
Lecture over and awaiting a broadside.
It is not just the chap who does the sim ride who has the ability to say 'No' to you joining. From the whole plethora of people who you meet during your time at interview, it only takes one to 'blackball' you.
Usually, of the two guys who sit with you in the sim, at least one of them will have met you for some prolonged period during the interview process and will have an idea of your qualities, or lack of them...........
You get looked at twice in the Sim during the DEC interviews so a better judgement of what sort of person you are can be made.
And this becomes the point where all of us become discriminatory.......the question that need an answer is: 'Would I really want to fly with this guy, and would I be prepared to let ALL of our crew members fly with him? Will he be good for the company?'
If the answer to any of these is NO then they have to, for many obvious reasons, say 'Sorry, no job for you.'
The proof of the decision is the reaction of the indivual concerned.
You quote the lack of ethnic diversity, the white majority, and biased (or discriminatory) practises in the recruiting process. I offer a suggestion that maybe, just maybe, the recruitment department got it right this time.
No on likes to be told that they don't make the grade, whatever their race colour or creed. How you take it shows your personality for what it really is.
Lecture over and awaiting a broadside.
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Albatross2004, your posts are as laughable as they are inaccurate. Your accusations about the Emirates recruiting team are pretty wild.
I don't know what your agenda is but you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about biased recruiting at Emirates. My experience, and that of most other guys that have been through the process, is that recruiting at Emirates is remarkably egalitarian and the team have no particular axe to grind (as you seem to constantly imply)
Get your facts right and stop your paranoid ramblings
I don't know what your agenda is but you seem to have a bee in your bonnet about biased recruiting at Emirates. My experience, and that of most other guys that have been through the process, is that recruiting at Emirates is remarkably egalitarian and the team have no particular axe to grind (as you seem to constantly imply)
Get your facts right and stop your paranoid ramblings
Last edited by Mistah Kurtz; 20th Apr 2004 at 04:13.
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albotrass
I whole-heartedly agree with you
Definitely some applications are shortlised if your nationality is from a certain part of the world,however,rumour has it,the Human Resource and Personnel have the final say on the indivisual Candidate!!
With all the fiasco in the last few months,they need to retailor their safetynet!!!!!from the +20 G/A a month,the fire cargo over Madras Chenni and now JNB!! Good Luck
I whole-heartedly agree with you
Definitely some applications are shortlised if your nationality is from a certain part of the world,however,rumour has it,the Human Resource and Personnel have the final say on the indivisual Candidate!!
With all the fiasco in the last few months,they need to retailor their safetynet!!!!!from the +20 G/A a month,the fire cargo over Madras Chenni and now JNB!! Good Luck
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JABAL- you're wandering down the same sad road as Albie..
20+ go-arounds a month, gosh!!! Looking through the ASR's recently the vast majority of go-arounds are due to ATC instructions because the runway ahead is still occupied. I guess though that you're a landing minded kind of chappie aren't you, just got to get it on the ground however unstable you may be. Clever guy
, or whatever may be in front of you. You'll find that most airlines have a lot of go-arounds flown every month.
Well done to the recruitment team for keeping idiots like you away from our aeroplanes....
20+ go-arounds a month, gosh!!! Looking through the ASR's recently the vast majority of go-arounds are due to ATC instructions because the runway ahead is still occupied. I guess though that you're a landing minded kind of chappie aren't you, just got to get it on the ground however unstable you may be. Clever guy
, or whatever may be in front of you. You'll find that most airlines have a lot of go-arounds flown every month.Well done to the recruitment team for keeping idiots like you away from our aeroplanes....
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Sour grapes, yes it would appear so.
Albatross just what is your beef? Spit it out. Were YOU knocked back? Someone you know? What? Get it off your chest and you might make more sense.
I guess the same questions could be asked of jaba too. Like it or not that's usually what prompts comments like these.
For an airline expanding at such a rate, I think Emirates is doing extremely well. The temptation would naturally be to just employ all and sundry to get all those ordered aircraft crewed but to their credit, they are not relaxing the standards.
Sounds tough if you're knocked back but what's wrong with them maintaining a high standard?
And I bet they were glad of it too after how the JNB incident was handled by the men in the seats. Could've so easily gone the other way.
Muttley
Albatross just what is your beef? Spit it out. Were YOU knocked back? Someone you know? What? Get it off your chest and you might make more sense.
I guess the same questions could be asked of jaba too. Like it or not that's usually what prompts comments like these.
For an airline expanding at such a rate, I think Emirates is doing extremely well. The temptation would naturally be to just employ all and sundry to get all those ordered aircraft crewed but to their credit, they are not relaxing the standards.
Sounds tough if you're knocked back but what's wrong with them maintaining a high standard?
And I bet they were glad of it too after how the JNB incident was handled by the men in the seats. Could've so easily gone the other way.
Muttley
Last edited by Muttley Crew; 20th Apr 2004 at 09:40.
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Of course anybody who has been chosen by EK recruitment will think that EK recruitment has got it all just right.
The reality is somewhat different.
Now lets all have a group hug and build a Leggo trainset.
The reality is somewhat different.
Now lets all have a group hug and build a Leggo trainset.
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radnav, unfortunately most large airlines these days do the daft stuff like build lego trainsets, but I don't ever remember doing group hugs!!!! Did you have a problem putting the bits of lego together, bit hard was it?
Maybe you'd be so kind as too explain what the reality is?
Anyway, I'd better go and buy a new dress and handbag as I have a group luv-in on my roster tomorrow
Maybe you'd be so kind as too explain what the reality is?
Anyway, I'd better go and buy a new dress and handbag as I have a group luv-in on my roster tomorrow
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dungfunnel
"If the quality training and licencing is in the first world then the numbers of pilots in a world wide company like emirates will reflect that."
"I have personnal experience of the above at many levels "
I am indebted to you for so aptly reinforcing my argument
Please do grace this thread with more of your "first world" and " personnal experience" insights
Learning all the time
"If the quality training and licencing is in the first world then the numbers of pilots in a world wide company like emirates will reflect that."
"I have personnal experience of the above at many levels "
I am indebted to you for so aptly reinforcing my argument
Please do grace this thread with more of your "first world" and " personnal experience" insights
Learning all the time
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Well done to the Emirates chaps on this thread - your response to the drivel been spewed out has been handled with a lot of maturity, and has left me howling with laughter at times - even dear old Mutt, just as I thought he must be brewing (and drinking) moonshine in his back garden, he comes out with a good response.
Jabal - a line from your thread "The Emirates needs to retailor their safety net" and you go on to quote two incidence: Madras Chenni and JNB. Why should they???? On both occassions the pilots got ALL passengers and crew safely on the ground, what more could you ask for. It must be sooooo easy to be judgemental on something and someone you know NOTHING about.
Albatross - it takes a REAL man to look at himself and say, maybe "I" messed up on my interview - instead of blaming it on the colour of your skin. If you came with that chip on your shoulder to the interview, it would have been picked up pretty quickly.Which is a pity, if you lose the chip on your shoulder - you probably are a really nice guy. (I think)
May your next landing be the best one yet.
Jabal - a line from your thread "The Emirates needs to retailor their safety net" and you go on to quote two incidence: Madras Chenni and JNB. Why should they???? On both occassions the pilots got ALL passengers and crew safely on the ground, what more could you ask for. It must be sooooo easy to be judgemental on something and someone you know NOTHING about.
Albatross - it takes a REAL man to look at himself and say, maybe "I" messed up on my interview - instead of blaming it on the colour of your skin. If you came with that chip on your shoulder to the interview, it would have been picked up pretty quickly.Which is a pity, if you lose the chip on your shoulder - you probably are a really nice guy. (I think)
May your next landing be the best one yet.
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wagtail23
"And this becomes the point where all of us become discriminatory.......the question that need an answer is: 'Would I really want to fly with this guy, and would I be prepared to let ALL of our crew members fly with him? Will he be good for the company?'
If the answer to any of these is NO then they have to, for many obvious reasons, say 'Sorry, no job for you.' "
Of the 2 questions that according to you (hope you are/were in the Emirates' recruitment team) need a YES as an answer for someone to qualify admission to the world's most select club i-e Emirates' cockpit crew, only the latter question holds merit. There are many a times when tolerating someone besides you in the cockpit crosses your mind, but then we all have a job to do and isn't CRM all about that? Is it possible for everybody to like or be friends with everybody?...NO sir.
So the premise that during a SIM check ride the assessor is looking for social compatability rather than good management and/or decisions that affect company ops, prestige and finances etc. is surely a stretch. The only consideration that is irrefutable is 'Will he be good for the company?'.
The social compatability bit is best left out of the SIM to the Psychometrics team, the experts in that area.
Happy landings
dungfunnel
Quit thinking in a foreign language and then translating to Queen's English.
When will you make any sense?
Now don't go working overtime with your "first world" ego
"And this becomes the point where all of us become discriminatory.......the question that need an answer is: 'Would I really want to fly with this guy, and would I be prepared to let ALL of our crew members fly with him? Will he be good for the company?'
If the answer to any of these is NO then they have to, for many obvious reasons, say 'Sorry, no job for you.' "
Of the 2 questions that according to you (hope you are/were in the Emirates' recruitment team) need a YES as an answer for someone to qualify admission to the world's most select club i-e Emirates' cockpit crew, only the latter question holds merit. There are many a times when tolerating someone besides you in the cockpit crosses your mind, but then we all have a job to do and isn't CRM all about that? Is it possible for everybody to like or be friends with everybody?...NO sir.
So the premise that during a SIM check ride the assessor is looking for social compatability rather than good management and/or decisions that affect company ops, prestige and finances etc. is surely a stretch. The only consideration that is irrefutable is 'Will he be good for the company?'.
The social compatability bit is best left out of the SIM to the Psychometrics team, the experts in that area.
Happy landings
dungfunnel
Quit thinking in a foreign language and then translating to Queen's English.
When will you make any sense?
Now don't go working overtime with your "first world" ego
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Albatross,
Having read this thread, I assume that you are a captain somewhere, live in the Uk, and failed the dec selection at emirates.
Maybe you just didnt fit in, professionally or otherwise.Maybe you were a 737 captian taking a shortcut with the 55tonnes requirement, or maybe your not as good as you think, many reasons:
I have a good firend, lots of widebody time, lots of time in a major european carrier, he is european. Guess what he didnt get in. It wasnt because he was white, but all his assessors were.Go figure.
Is your current companies demographic representative of the racial demographic in your country of employment. Try getting a job in an african airline and you'll know what discrimination is about, if you're white.
To make a valid arguement for discrimination you have to produce evidence not rant about your percieved post natal disadvantages.
chill out and move on , it doesnt sound like EK would have ben for you anyway.
Having read this thread, I assume that you are a captain somewhere, live in the Uk, and failed the dec selection at emirates.
Maybe you just didnt fit in, professionally or otherwise.Maybe you were a 737 captian taking a shortcut with the 55tonnes requirement, or maybe your not as good as you think, many reasons:
I have a good firend, lots of widebody time, lots of time in a major european carrier, he is european. Guess what he didnt get in. It wasnt because he was white, but all his assessors were.Go figure.
Is your current companies demographic representative of the racial demographic in your country of employment. Try getting a job in an african airline and you'll know what discrimination is about, if you're white.
To make a valid arguement for discrimination you have to produce evidence not rant about your percieved post natal disadvantages.
chill out and move on , it doesnt sound like EK would have ben for you anyway.