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If there is a problem with flow and hand overs, would it not be better to design better SID's and STARS if the ATCO's hands are "tied" by regulation?
This could help reduce the vectors and facilitate speed control. Or is this the last straw when everything else fails? halas |
Halas,
We're already in the process of a ground up airspace review at the moment, only because no one is willing to pay for outside help it's gonna be 3 - 5 years down the line. :* Ah real shame as we needed it about 3 years ago!! Oh and just to cheer everyone up, don't forget we'll be closing one of the runways 24 hrs a day shortly as it needs to be moved!! They never like to see us bored around here do they? Rgds FT |
Longest ATIS Message in the World
Hi All!
In the spirit of 'constructive criticism' of this thread can I tackle the thorny subject of Dubai's lengthy ATIS? It starts off by saying ' Dubai International Airport, United Arab Emirates ATIS information __'. What's that all about? How's about 'Dubai information __'. Of late I've heard a longwinded message about the fact that RVSM has been implemented also included. This is the ONLY ATIS message at any airport in the region that mentions this. Why the big fuss? After all, unless you've teleported to the field you'll have used RVSM on the way in OR maybe taken a glance at the notams prior to departure. It's only a computerised text message. Can't it be made more 'user-friendly'? |
I agree with Crazycanuck. These guys are doing the best they can within their power to help us.... I think there is far more serious problems other than DXB ATC in Dubai right now!!!! But this is another forum......:E
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ATCO - WILLING AND AVAILABLE
If there's such a shortage of ATCOs out there in the UAE, then why is it so hard for some of us guys here in the UK to get a job out there?
What's with this 5 years experience at a busy civilian airport requirement all about - if the locally recruited and trained ATCOs are capable of validating (without ANY previous experience) then any ATCO, who has previously validated his/her ratings at a unit, would already be in a better position, surely? Seems to me that the best way to reduce the ATCO shortage in the UAE would be to be more flexible with the required experience and treat each applicant on his/her individual merits. There you go, problem solved...NEXT! |
Hello all,
Just to provide some history to a few questions raised. With regard to the long "first calls"; It is not uncommon that the aircraft types for a few of the regional flights are not correctly represented on the (version of the) Flight Plan that ATC has for a particular flight. This has in the past lead to incorrect wake turbulence separation being applied on final approach when the "medium" ahead has turned out to be a heavy. I believe that the root of the problem is the filing of revised FPL by the operator before the RPL (held at the airport of departure) has been filed, thus the data received is the data that the operator intended to amend. The level passing has to do with the fact that there is no automated data interchange between Dubai and UAE or anyone else and UAE (as far as I know). The advent of OLDI in the future should go a (very) long way to sorting that out. In my opinion, a procedure that requires that Dubai and/or UAE advise the other unit when a Mode C variation is evident and assume that a non-notification means it is OK would be the easiest and safest interim solution. Somebody asked why DXB does not just design their own (improved) SID's and STAR's.. I believe that our Regulator at the GCAA is considered to be the only one that can make those kinds of changes at the moment. Regarding the sectorisation and airspace review, Emirates Airlines and the Airport Authority (including ATC and other departments) are heavily involved in a project/program that is being run by an outside agency that allows extremely high speed simulation of various proposed scenarios. There are a multitude of factors that get considered and parameters that are tweaked. This simulation allows for fine tuning of procedures and routings to find the optimum spacing, routings (air and ground) etc with the increase of traffic. The solution(s) may be some time off in terms of realisation, but they are in the making. It is apparent and obvious that the amount of traffic arriving at DXB during the peak times, and the varying (?) directions and sectors from which they come make it extremely difficult for any ATC or group of ATC's to make it work out all the time without hitches, delays or crock up's. There are tools out there that can, based on final spacing requirements, calculate backwards out to a few hundred miles regarding ideal speeds etc to create a consistent flow of traffic with optimum routings etc. The difficulty in this part of the world is trying to get the powers that be to open up their cheque books and pay for this kind of technology. The operation level managers know the problems and the solutions, but they do not control the purse strings and so they can only work within the parameters that they find themselves in. Between regulatory issues, limited funding, ageing equipment, staff shortages, some aircrew that can hardly speak English, some ATC's that Bark at every opportunity and the construction site that has 2 runways associated with it, methinks the guys (and girls) at Dubai and UAE do an outstanding job. :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: |
Nice one Invictus
You joined PPrune specially to say that didn't you? Going back to original posting I believe that there are two or three individuals in Dubai that are letting the side down. :ugh: What a pity that the good work of many is spoiled by the impatience of a few. Keep up to good work chaps! :D :O :p |
Clipped_Wings,
Yes, I had forgotten my previous login(s) and had not been on these pages for more than a year. Regarding the few "Bad Apples" you will always get those wherever you go, fact of life. The good thing is, that most pilot's will see the whole picture. Invictus |
LondonRadar
PM me if you really are interested in working out here in the sandpit. Invictus very thought out & considered post but leaves out the fact things could be improved overnight if wasn't for a bloody minded regulator, who's more intent on building empires than setting up a safe, orderly & expeditious unit. As for the various positive comments above....... thanks, we try our best :ok: FT |
London Radar, you have to understand they will always go the extra yard to get a local validated here, and understandably so. For that reason they give them at least 18 months training, whereas the expats get 3 months with no simulator training, just straight on the job. To be honest you need to be experienced to make it here, because as an expat they expect you to slot straight in and do the job. You can't compare the locals with the expats because the expectations as far as time frame for validating is completely different.
In defence of the locals though, your post gave the impression that the locals are a lesser controller than expats, and in UAE centre at least, that is far from the case. The locals I work with are some of the best controllers I have ever had the pleasure to work with. In response to invictus, I accept the financial and regulatory constraints placed on Dubai, but my issue, is why doesn't the Coordinator spend more time working out the sequence and proactively asking for specific 20 NM spacing rather than letting East and West provide 10 NM spacing and then realising overhead Dubai there are not enough slots for aircraft. No WhizzBang new system needed for that, just work the sequence out and communicate it to us, and we will do the rest. This blanket 20NM or 30NM is overkill to the extreme. But agreed generally that within the parameters provided things run pretty smoothly most of the time. |
3 Things that need to be addressed with Dubai ATC.
1. The ATIS. Its way to long. Just give us the runway in use and the weather. Drop all the other crap- we have notams. Why do you have to update it every half hour? Its a pain in the ass to have to go off ATC frequency in the descent to get the new ATIS code. 2. Clearance delivery. Time for its own frequency all the time! There is no reason why we should wait for taxi clearance because someone is getting their clnx. Ground frequency is over congested as it is especially with all the airport work going on. 3. The verbal speal we have to give with departure and arrival. On departure this is a very busy time in the cockpit, low to the ground and we have to spit out aircraft type blah blah. Name, SID and altitude climbing out of. Thanks RB |
AREBEE211
you hit the nail on the head |
Sorry this is a long post but I’ve just joined the thread and want to add a few of my humble opinions. It is good to see some sensible dialogue between Area and Approach ATCOs and pilots. Chronologically …
ManaAdaSystem “Am I alone when I say there are one or two ATCOs (Aussie/English?) in DXB who seem to suffer from constant PMS?” No unfortunately you’re correct. You’re not alone in finding their conduct on the r/t unprofessional and we are trying to change it. Captain Over “We know you are busy fitting out round pegs into the square holes around us, but hold off that transmission for just 15 more seconds. Once the reversers are stowed, you can tell us exactly what to do...'cause THEN we can HEAR YOU! (or...how about clearing instructions when we first say 'ello?)” Agreed – this is an ATC training matter but please mention it to the controller at the time it happens. The flip side is for you to get off the runway asap. We have a big problem with runway occupancy, especially EK aircraft. Also “expedite” means hurry up not go as slowly as possible! Ferris “Remember, it's arguably worse for us at the centre. We have to talk to them all the time, and put up with their 'interesting' techniques.” B*$%&cks CRS Could one of the Dubai ATCO's tell me why we have to make the extraordinary long call on initial contact (published in Jepps) surely this takes up valuable RT time? The longest verbage required by any airport in the world, to my knowledge. It’s not long – it’s exactly the same as the report required by UK ATC. It gives us all the info we need and avoids increasing our workload 4–fold by having to ask for the info you haven’t volunteered. While I am on the questions, why can't DXB's mode c check be satisfactory for UAE and vice versa, …? Couldn’t agree more and we’ve tried believe me. A delivery frequency would also take alot of pressure off you Ground controllers. There is a Delivery frequency on 118.35 between 0730 & 0830. That’s why you get transferred to 118.85 for Ground. The published hours of GMP, of course, mean that GMP closes whilst the GMC controller is still up to his neck in departures and now has to work 2 frequencies. Sometimes there aren’t the staff available to keep it open. Ferris “RE; the holds.” How’s this for an idea? Dubai has control of the holds (which are too far away from the airfield and should be moved closer / replaced) at altitudes i.e. up to 13,000’. UAE drops arrivals spaced 10nm apart to FL150 and transfers them to Dubai Arrivals. If holding is going to be such that levels above FL150 will be required for holding the Coordinator informs UAE North. This simplifies the task for everyone and gives the customer the best service. This would require UAE to descend aircraft earlier. To ensure the system works and entry in the AIP vis aircraft must plan their descent profile to be level FL150 around 20nm before DESDI/BUBIN (and for this to be applied at all times) just like the UK. Maybe a CCTV system so UAE North and East can see the ARR strips to see which levels are vacant is needed too. It’s still not perfect but better than the current system, but then again anything is better than the current system! Antman “Would it not make more sense to sequence traffic as much as is possible, one left turn departure ,one strait ahead,one right,one left etc.” Great idea – already been thought about but again problems of SIDs that go straight ahead to 5 or 9 nm before turning make a mockery of expedition. We have started giving early turns to a fix so that you can maintain your own terrain separation and turn early. These should be prefixed with “when ready, turn L/R direct to…” or “when safely able, turn L/R direct to...” Also ask EK ops to stop filing all their European departures in the rushes solely via RANBI or PAPAR. This means we get 15 deps via one SID and nothing via any other route. There goes the operational flexibility then… Wiley “While it will be a great improvement to separate the ADC and Ground frequencies, (as only occasionally seems to happen lately), let’s drag DXB into the 21st century with something that’s been in use elsewhere for ages now – datalink.” We have separate ADC and Ground frequencies H24. datalink and DATIS – agreed. “I’d really like to see the LHR system,” Wouldn’t we all! Donpizmeov “Might also help a bit if we were to actually fly the published star instead of the "maintain heading 300"!!!! Would stop a lot of the controller work load, would allow the flight deck (early morning after all night flight from hell) to use the FMC for track miles and descent profile....and hopefully free up the approach freq a bit.” Sorry, doesn’t work. It is impossible to sequence arrivals on the RNAV STARs without all the hassle of gate times etc. Much more trouble than it’s worth. Then you’ve got the problem of a) training ATCOs to do it (assuming all are able) and b) actually getting people to do it. See scenario under holds above. ”Maybe if the chart reflected 210kts at bubok (oops can not remember its name!!!) and 180kts and 2000' at Umali (is that the right name for 12L ?) only small speed control would be required at busy times. The mile or two saved by the early turn at 0600hrs sometimes is not worth the effort.” Don’t seem to know the TMA, oops sorry we can’t have a TMA cos Abu Dhabi doesn’t have one (go look up the definition), CTA very well. … early turns at 0600 – so why do you always say yes when asked if you want one? AirNoServicesAustralia “Not stealing Dubai's thunder but generally all the holding, vectoring and speed control is care of us guys in Abu Dhabi. So you can thank/blame us for that.” Yeah, right. Come for a liaison visit on a night shift then you’ll see. Muttley Crew “One gent however has a habit of responding to pilots' readbacks of his instructions with a clipped "Correct..." or sometimes just a double click. Is there a requirement to acknowledge readbacks on UAE Control or departures? Why don’t other controllers do this?” This might be me. Reason is to reduce the verbal diarrhoea that is a regular feature of radio transmissions here (from both sides). KISS - Keep It Simple Stupid ”One other question, when the Altn GND freq is used at Dubai, why isn’t this mentioned on the ATIS so a call and air-time isn’t wasted on 118.35?” Let me get this right - you want us to make the ATIS message LONGER? We use 118.35 for GMC most of the day. GMP (Delivery) is only used at certain times but is likely to be required much more often in the future. 118.35 remains the initial contact frequency. GMC moves over to 118.85 for simplicity. You still get your clearance on 118.35 so it’s never a wasted call. You should hopefully have noticed a different way of using the Delivery frequency recently. We’re aiming to keep congestion at the hold to a minimum so try to deliver aircraft to the hold in such a way as to never have more than 3-5 there. This means we’re operating a queue system on GMP (118.35). This is closely based on the way London Gatwick works and is a proven system. My pet hate is queue-jumping crews who get their clearance on 118.35 and then free-call on 118.85. You MUST wait until transferred otherwise the system doesn’t work. LondonRadar “If there's such a shortage of ATCOs out there in the UAE, then why is it so hard for some of us guys here in the UK to get a job out there? Seems to me that the best way to reduce the ATCO shortage in the UAE would be to be more flexible with the required experience and treat each applicant on his/her individual merits.” Ah, now I see why you’re unsuited to life and work here – you’re applying common sense! We aren’t allowed to do that here. Seriously though – have you been given knockback? We’ve recently taken people with less than 5 years and even our first (ex-EGKK) tower only. PM me with details and / or a CV. AREBEE211 “3 Things that need to be addressed with Dubai ATC. 1. The ATIS. … we have notams.” So why does everthing come as a surprise then? “Why do you have to update it every half hour?” Because things change “Its a pain in the ass to have to go off ATC frequency in the descent to get the new ATIS code.” Please, oh please, tell me you mean the co-pilot uses box 2… ”2. Clearance delivery. Time for its own frequency all the time!” Yes – you get us the staff and we’ll do it. “There is no reason why we should wait for taxi clearance because someone is getting their clnx. Ground frequency is over congested…” Agreed ”3. The verbal speal we have to give with departure and arrival. On departure this is a very busy time in the cockpit, low to the ground and we have to spit out aircraft type blah blah. Name, SID and altitude climbing out of.” I’ll give you aircraft type on departure is usually unnecessary but the rest is the same as Europe and gives us the info we need. If you gave it all on 1st call it would reduce our r/t workload and frustration levels immensely. |
ASNO,
In defence of the locals though, your post gave the impression that the locals are a lesser controller than expats, and in UAE centre at least, that is far from the case. The locals I work with are some of the best controllers I have ever had the pleasure to work with. If i gave that impression, I apologise. That was not I meant, maybe I should have said Student ATCOs rather than locals. Regarding the time frames involved in validating, so what if some expats take a little longer to validate (for eg 5 months instead of 3). It's still better than being short staffed!! But what do I know.:rolleyes: Fly through and Granny Smith - check your PMs. |
Bravo Granny Smith.............. you must have waaaaay too much time on your hands ;)
Agree with everything in your post but one thing needs to keep being reiterated.......THIS AIN'T EUROPE!!!!! Why is the Atis so long ? 'Cos here not every crew checks their NOTAMS. Why do we have a problem with runway occupancy? 'Cos everyone thinks it's only Dubai we can relax ie. High speed turnoffs, they're called that for a reason, so no crawling off the runway please. Frequency congestion? 'Cos crews standard of English is pitiful and certain sub continent pilots insist on everything being confirmed twice over. We could make this place run really smoothly but we keep having to cope with the lowest common denominator, all it takes is one pilot on arrivals with a bad command of English (usual with a heavy russian accent), who isn't following instrustions and everything slows down. ASNO We've just been applying a blanket 20m flow over the last 2 nights when it's been busy. It worked pretty well but tell me why, if you guys do so much sequencing is everything left unil last minute? Once everything enters the holds, it's impossible for us to work out the order as everyone in the centre seems to have a different idea on how a hold works. Why when we put flow on can't you give crews a time to leave Desdi to achieve the required spacing rather than vectoring them? Even give it to them as they enter your airspace so they can arrange their flight accordingly? I personally like the proactive approach (I'll take that one on this heading, at this speed followed by....) but not all centre controllers like doing that. Rgds FT |
Perhaps ASNO meant to say streaming and not sequencing.
ACC has no requirement to sequence the traffic at DXB. All they must do is stream the traffic according to what DXB stipulates from time to time. If individuals at ACC are trying to work out the sequence and apply speed control and so on based on what they think the sequence should be, then I reckon there are going to be some pretty p1$$ed-off pilots out there. I have previously read postings on these pages where pilots are b1tch1ng about being given high speed by ACC and then immediately get told by DXB to hit the brakes or traffic slowed down by ACC and then on first contact with DXB get "Best Speed direct to ..." A big part of the problem was eluded to by Granny Smith (I think) when he/she stated that DXB is published as a CTA and not a TMA. By definition, DXB should be a TMA. Side Note: Hey Late Landing, you still hanging around the DXB discussions eh? Compliments of the season to you and yours. How is the weather ? |
Hey Fly Through, the problem we have (especially with one crew) is that you try and organise the order in the hold and have it all set up and then the plan gets changed to 30 NM blanket. So we usually stack them up and then as you guys can take them, whether 10 apart or 20 or whatever, we bring them in. I think generally it works ok if there is an open line of communication, my big gripe is when you call Dubai COORD and ask if you can shortcut the guy overhead MUSAP and the COORD responds with "Who??". Surely the COORD should be on a big range and have the sequence sorted well before they get in this close. I just get the distinct impression a lot of the guys see COORD as a position where you pass on COORD and if you get a chance you look at the sequence. From our point of view, the COORD is the guy we are looking to for a bit of guidance as to what you want or need.
Granny Smith, I had tongue firmly in the cheek, when I commented on us doing everything. When working with a good crew, Dubai APP and UAE Centre cooperates and helps each other out a lot, but when there is a bad crew either side of the fence, its the pilots that suffer. BTW I know Big Brother is watching this thread, so be careful about letting on who you are, as criticism is not appreciated I hear. Fly Through, again the lowest common denominator thing, we can't trust most of these pilots to make a left hand holding pattern (the right hand pattern at DESDI, scares the crap out of those RANBI departures), so how do you expect us to trust these guys with a time to arrive instruction. We have to get in and do it ourselves, which means wicked vectors all over the sky sometimes. I mean the amount of times aircraft fail to meet Vertical requirements here is scary, and thats after checking twice to make sure they will meet it. In a perfect world (Australia I hear you all saying :E ) you can trust the pilots will do the right thing, sorry here, due to a really bad minority, all techniques have to be dumbed down. |
BTW I know Big Brother is watching this thread, so be careful about letting on who you are, as criticism is not appreciated I hear. If this is indeed the case then I have 2 things to say. 1. ANSA's warning is pertinent. 2. Without the luxury of unions or representative groups in this part of the world, this is a most excellent opportunity for GD to listen to what the troops are saying. Of course there will be criticism and more, but when seen in the big picture, it should at the very least give him some good pointers as to where he should be looking if he truly wants to "make it better". . |
Granny Smith.
How’s this for an idea This simplifies the task for everyone and gives the customer the best service Fly through. We've just been applying a blanket 20m flow over the last 2 nights when it's been busy if you guys do so much sequencing is everything left unil last minute Why when we put flow on can't you give crews a time to leave Desdi to achieve the required spacing rather than vectoring them Once everything enters the holds, it's impossible for us to work out the order as everyone in the centre seems to have a different idea on how a hold works. ps. Why isn't the COORD position staffed all night? I'm not sure that you guys realise how thin the staffing is at the ACC. |
Ferris,
With regards to the holding closer to the field, I do agree with Granny. Traffic @FL150+ holds with UAE. When Traffic previously transferred to DXB is observed as having left A130, then the next A/C gets cleared on the STAR and dropped to A130 and so on. The (approach) hold (would be) published at the common point of all the STAR's. The Arrivals controller then continues the decent of the traffic on the STAR, towards the holding facility. The fact is that the decent would be mostly continuous anyway, so the high level close to the field will not be entirely true. The departing traffic would be kept (as present) clear of the holding areas and this would be regulated by the SID's/STAR's Traffic approaching the holding facility will get told to expect no holding or one hold ect.. and be either vectored to final or spun a few times in the hold as appropriate. This system works at Heathrow and other places in the world. I do not claim that our facilities, abilities or staffing levels are even close to those of Heathrow, but we are talking theory now (right?) Regarding the 20nm/30nm through the gate We do not make those rules, the GCAA did. OMNE was designed by and enforced by the GCAA and ... all considered it may not be the best system available but it is the only system that may be used legally to enforce the GCAA's sector capacity limitations (5/8). Regarding the COORD H24 Subject to staffing, the COORD position is H24. There are occasions that, due to critical staff shortages and after the flow has been set, the COORD may man the Director position. This is an obvious move and it allows the arrivals controller to increase his/her sector capacity from 5 to 8. As you have said, "I'm not sure that you guys realise how thin the staffing is at the ACC". I could bounce that straight back and tell you that we too face serious staff shortages and if the grapevine does not speak with forked tongue, then we face even more departures (staff) soon. Regarding getting the traffic at the last minute There my friend, you are right, but for that you will have to blame the size of the country and the insistence of the regulator that the ACC do the coordination with Muscat. To the North I think we can agree that there is not too much problem as there is not too much traffic through DARAX. If however that route picked up, then there is a risk that that could become a nightmare. Your suggestion regarding central Flow Management. Spot on, except I would say that the MAESTRO (or similar) would be vastly more effective than the manual option. So .. What to do ? There is a good chance that the DXB approach facility will be moved to an alternate location on the airport by the end of 2006. This means that there will be new equipment. My hope is that those running the project will go the whole nine yards and get the all singing all dancing equipment, including OLDI (latest version) MAESTRO (with nodes at Muscat/UAE ACC/OMAA App) and whatever else is required. There is also a TAAM’s project underway to streamline many aspects of the airport operation, including airspace and routings; I hope that this will produce more cost effective and less stressful solutions for all concerned. Immediately however, You, I and everyone else will be best served by accepting the fact that the other ATC unit has problems that we may not fully understand and restrictions that are not clear to us and, as such, just try to keep our suggestions and comments constructive and non-personal. . |
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