True.
Recognition of sanity is a privilege limited to the intelligent 😉

On what planet do you live? Do you listen to the news around you? Airlines are shutting down or going bankrupt. Did you expect that SAUDIA will stop paying its own nationals in order to pay the expat? Seriously... Wake up man

Bassem you might want to re-read my last post.
A little slowly this time around
☺️

Get along children!

Any expat going to work in Saudia and expecting any form of basic rights is deluded. You all went there for the pay check or because you have lost your job elsewhere. A foreigner in the Middle East will always be a second class citizen at best. Sorry you lost your income but as someone who worked elsewhere in the ME I can’t classify it as a surprise in the current climate.

There is enough documentation on how foreigners are treated in the ME and especially in Saudia Arabia. They pay you that means they owe you. Anyone who is contemplating legal action is completely deluded. You have no rights. Just ask all the political activists (oh wait, I mean terrorists) who are in Saudia prisons about the legal system in place.

You chose to work in a place where there are no human rights and where public punishments are still being enforced but somehow you are angry because you are not treated the same as back home in the west....

A bit unfair. Having done some work at ARAMCO and affiliates, I can tell you that operationally it is a very, very well run company, and that much of the work is done by Saudi's with a very high level of competence and work ethic. Meetings started on time, agenda's were kept, people were on point, and those things that were committed to were done efficiently and with little fuss. May sound strange to some who are more familiar with other areas of the ME, but I generally found the locals there in the O&G sector of very high caliber professionally.

PS - Yes, I am an expat.

Obviously its a sad day when anyone gets laid-off; Saudi or Expat - with the added complication that expats must leave the country, possibly with implications for their families. The difficulties and stress are exacerbated by the uncertainty in the industry and gloomy prospects for re-employment any time soon. I feel for anyone in that situation.

That said, expats working in the ME in general, know that they are mercenaries, and that when the s**t hits the fan, they are on their own. It is part of the unwritten Faustian pact we make in such "ventures" - I use the word advisedly because it should be self evident that you are accepting some level of risk by working in region - and are rewarded accordingly. If you do not understand this, and the implications, the respectfully I submit that you're better off staying at home.

PS - Anyone doing their diligence prior to signing a contract in the ME will see that there are few legal protections for employees, let alone expats. Employees can be terminated quickly with few consequences, and companies are rarely required to ringfence benefits. I know many that were fired and did not receive their severence payments because the company were using these as working capital. In this respect, the regional airlines are probably better than the most employers.

Any foreigner who goes to work in the ME and expects to be treated fairly is naive.
When the **** hits the fan guess what happens.
unfair? Certainly
unexpected? No!

sheikhthecamel

I am not going to disagree with your experience. You also stated " having done some work". My experience was over a number of years and the ability displayed in a professional area was severely lacking from competence to work ethic.. Admittedly that was some years ago and may well have changed. More to the point on the "Saudi's worked hard to supply oil the the world" is irrefutably incorrect with all the "initial work being done by expats. It may well be that the Saudi's involvement now in the corporate area is more and they are very good at holding meetings..

Middle Eastern attitude.

There is no such thing as law in the horrific place ,the country if founded on that fact , culture is no where to civil nor the level of professionalism , I left that place just 3 weeks after my arrival , I will not work in such environment if they pay me millions
stay away

Saudi airlines are liars they will tell you what you want to hear good luck guys getting your money and good luck if you going to come back

Fabio, you are absolutely right, the world needs to be told of the appalling treatment of the expat pilots in this barren hellhole. But watch this space, its coming. Some very embarrassing documents to be released to the Ministry Of Interior in the Kingdom and the International Press in the coming weeks. Airlines who treat their pilots, employees and passengers with contempt and utter disregard must be named, shamed and appropriately defamed.
Watch this space … 😡

Jack330

Saudization, haha. I remember living in Saudia City with my Mom and Dad working for Saudia in late 80's and they were talking about Saudization then. Let's be honest, this is the fault of COVID. And it's awful--but there is not much that can be done and companies will try to save costs anyway they can until they can start earning again.

Those people have to be exposed for there slavery for there lies they should be exposed in the media they need to respect contracts

If this ‘Saudization’ ( insert other Middle East location + ization for other regions) was tried in the US or Europe there would be protests and cries of racism.

Exactly, thank you. Can we please stop the rest of this drivel? No one is being sent away without their end of service money, nothing is being stolen. This is happening all over the world. Anyone thinking that a contract pilot will be taken care of before a national should have researched more before taking the job.

The problem is the Saudi you cannot trust before the KOVID 19 too many guys didn’t get there indemnity and there bonuses and if you thing your coming back good luck and do you know if you go to the ministry of labor and complain against SAUDI AIRLINES you cannot leave the country until your case is over that will take years and years SO STOP POSTING WHAT YOU DONT SEE

Fabio, Rubbish.. With your 6 posts. I have seen more leave with exactly their entitlement than people leave thinking they are owed more than they really are. Read the contract, learn the laws. It is not perfect but I personally have not seen anyone robbed as you say.

Metro trash what you saying is not based on facts

I know at least 18-19 Ex Saudi captains who were given less than 24 hours ‘notice’ for their termination letters to be emailed to them and who on final settlement were shortchanged by an average of 40 percent of the monies that they were duly owed to them.
One way or another, this airline gets you. And it always seems to get you when you’re at your weakest. A sign of a coward? Maybe. A sign of a greedy corrupt system taking advantage of your current weakness. Positively!
If your final settlement is expected to be say 300K and your are ‘offered’ 200K, what do you do …????!!!
Just got to hear that all the UPL candidates above 55 will be terminated 2 months before their UPL period expires. Thus staying legal and having had their cake too.
Lots of legal documents gonna be slapped on this excuse of a GM’s desk very soon !!

Can't speak to the notice period, the Capts I know that did not take UPL were all given 2 months notice. They are using Force Majeure, Covid certainly qualifies as a Force Majeure by any definition.
End of service (EOS) is paid out at 3 different rates. This is by Saudi law. It is also not commonly known but has been the same way for 20+ years.
0-5 years of service = 1/3 EOS
5-10 years of service = 2/3 EOS
10+ years = Full EOS
Everyone I knew that had 5+ years were paid exactly or more than expected.

I admit I know of the time frame given to choose UPL or Termination. Everyone I know terminated was given 2 months. I know of ZERO given less.

I also know that 7 year Capt would be paid around 200k EOS. That is with full EOS paid. I also know that there are only a handful of people with more than 10 years so I can't see very many getting to the 300+ mark.

The 300k and 200k was simply being used as an example metro. Not actual figures. But pilots getting paid 40-45% less than what they expected is real !
And ALL the ones who were given 2 months notice for termination were given only 24 hours to decide on termination or on NPL.
About 10 pilots thus terminated and stuck out of kingdom were not even paid their basic salaries for the 2 months they served legally.
Fact sometime IS stranger than fiction. Especially here in SAUDIA.

I hear you. Painful I know, my point is that I have not personally seen someone lose on what they were actually owed. I have seen MANY that think they were owed more, expectations were often higher than reality. I know of examples of guys being over-paid during service and then losing money on exit as it was reclaimed.

I also believe that rumour over here is stranger that fact and fiction combined.

When Covid shut the world down it was expected to get messy. I am simply not a fan of publicly slagging any employer based on rumours.

get what you’re saying, but let’s not pretend that our western countries are high and mighty. Some of the biggest names in western aviation have used this as an opportunity to tear up contractual terms and conditions at will and relegate long serving employees to the scrap heap..... despite the contracts they all held.

I know that everyone feels bad when it happens to them, but expats would be first to go in any airline in any country. What government could justify letting expats stay while firing locals.

every expat knows that when you go to the Middle East you are always expendable and always at risk of being thrown on the scrap heap at short notice...... but that’s the price you pay for the quick succession and tax free money!

Themeatfleet
Couldn't have put it any better..

Themeatfleet & Boembus : exactly. Finally got there ! And as professional "commercial" pilots we will always continue to do that in order to put food on the table.Offered B747 twice with Saudia in my career. IN GF, considered it again when things looked grim. I could never justify family life in a Saudi ex-pat compound but quite liked the deal on all three occasions.

Settled in GF for nearly 20years but finally booted out with no notice after a bit of a battle. Had to fight hard for three month's "in lieu" of notice and saw lots of reductions by messing about with other terms.

But we, surely , know what we are signing up for on day one eh ?

Went off to the City Mall, bought myself my long-service watch, looked in the mirror and thanked myself ,climbed into my repatriation flight (sub-load in practice, of course) and left.

Given all events, would do it all again in the same circumstances. That is why, according to our profession, we fly for " Hire or reward". Purely commercial on both sides of the table.

Gordomac

Absolutely!! My seven years were quite rewarding, and I left on my own terms. Regardless of the good and bad, I would still go back again, but would always do so mindful of how quickly it can end.

ultimately, the Middle East and it’s people provide countless expats an opportunity to work and earn at standards well above their home countries. When it all turns bad it’s easy to let racism take hold and aim everything at the locals.... but let’s remember, this is the first time that major middle eastern airlines have ever laid off crew en masse. And they are doing so along with every other airline in the world.

True Themeatfleet in regards to a financial rewarding place but disagree with your racism comment. I was fortunate to be under contract with a non-middle eastern country working in the middle east. Therefore any breach of contract could be resolved in a place that looked at the law and not other aspect s for a resolution. I have seen first hand other expats under contract to a local company that has ended in tears due the company not honoring the contract with this nothing to do with corona virus and years ago. You may call it racist to point out that a) if you are not a local you are treated differently and b) a very different mindset to a logical, reasonable, and fair treatment of non-local employee’s.

Thank You Saudia
 

Expat first officer here, hired during the 2015 hiring boom. The training was hard but fair. The housing situation wasn’t perfect but Saudia always made sure that we were comfortable. Once released my salary was always higher than I expected.

The move to Riyadh was messy but the housing in Riyadh was great. Saudia always treated me fairly to the last day. On the last day I was given every cent owed to me and was told that I could stay in the house as long as I needed to make it home safely.

As an expat I didn’t force Saudia to hire me. I didn’t take anyone’s job, Saudis hired me and Saudis decided not to renew my contract. Don’t blame the foreigners for taking your jobs.

For the expats complaining, Saudia honored our contracts. The Captains were under no obligation to take UPL, they could’ve taken their two month notice and left (like some did). If anything the UPL was a blessing, Saudia could have easily given everyone two month notice.

Working with Saudia wasn’t perfect but nothing is. I have hung up my wings and have joined the family business but I will remember Saudia with many happy memories. I’m embarrassed to see all the hate in here coming from both sides. I’m sure I’ve flown with many of you guys and it’s sad that you need anonymity to show your true colors.

"you need anonymnity to show your true colours " ; So says "Bahonkadonks " located in the "world".........gotta larf eh ?..............

Bahonkadonks;

You may rename now Stockholm syndrome as saudi syndrome (when applied for professional relations).

One fundamental difference exists between Saudi and European/US airline pilot policies. Saudi (and perhaps certain other ME carriers) are dismissing pilots who are not their own nationals. This simply does not take place in so-called civilised countries.

My own experiences operating in and out of JED on Hajj flights through the years have not been good, Aside from Saudi ATC favouring local and royal flights without any pretence, the immigration and customs differences in treatment between Saudi and foreign incoming crew were profound and sometimes unpleasant. (Long and unnecessary waits, dismissive and obstructive local officials, bias and sometimes prejudice against foreign people)

However, I was doing a paid job for a foreign carrier, not a Saudi airline. I knew what to expect. Although refusing to fly there would have created a problem with my own employment, so I was not making a choice.

Good luck to the folk now hoping for alternative employment in these troubled times.

What you say is absolutely incorrect, I worked more than 20 years in Saudia and when I left evey last penny and more was paid to me, nobody shortchanged me, on the contrary they didn't want me to leave but unfortunately I had pressing family issues.

The best years of my flying were spent in Saudia; sure there were ups and downs, sure they were unorganised at times but overall Saudia was very kind to me and I have no complaints or animosity. Even though professionally a very great injustice was done to me by an indivisual and saudias system that was not designed to address such personal biased politics but that could have happened anywhere. You obviously believe in hear say.

Sal380.
You would then be one of a handful of pilots who have stuck around this hell hole for so long.
Free upgrades and transitions maybe 🤔

You sound like one of those disgruntled expats who get flunked during induction process, or perhaps who came for up-grades but that didn't materialise. Once again you are wrong? I wasn't amongst a handful of expatriate pilots who stuck around long years in Saudia I was amongst many of them, the early generation American/European Pilots stuck around in Saudia for over 30 years, even more, their entire flying career was groomed in Saudia and when time came to leave; I have seen tears in their eyes.

one particular American pilot friend of mine told me, that he knew of no other home and his three kids were born in Saudi city and they all keep coming back, he wished Saudia Arabia would gave permanent residency to those retired pilots who wanted to stay back. As for myself I have no complaint against Saudia, One of my friends who is still in Saudia for last 33 years is coming up for retirement, I would call him the last of the old Expat pilots generation coming to a close, he also is leaving with a heavy heart, It may be a hell hole for you? but for the like of him and me it was the best Airline in the world, but then again we are Muslim Expatriate pilots and for us Saudia Arabis has two of our sacred most holy places and that has its own attraction and dynamic. Good day and Salam

Sal 380, your response to me was quite disrespectful. I was not incorrect, as you so glibly stated. I was reporting my own experiences, in the main, and reporting them honestly. Your response to Lucifer 786 was also impolite, presumably because you were annoyed.

Irrespective of your manners, would you not consider a country where your own religious beliefs were suppressed and could not be practiced some sort of hellhole? Especially if it also prohibited you from enjoying a customary glass of wine or a chilled beer in public. Anyway, this is going off-thread, so I'll stop there. Saudi Arabia, and Saudia are not everyone's cup of tea. And operating professionally in and out of JED has been an unpleasant business for many of us foreign and non-muslim pilots. Clearly not for you and your colleague. Each to his own.

US airlines primarily hires Americans and Green Card holders so technically they are all locals. So are European airlines (except Norwegian probably, or back in Air Atlanta Icelandic days).

So Air Japan letting go of all foreigners and Korean Air / Asiana not renewing contracts foreigners equate to Japan and Korea being uncivilized?

Apples and oranges.

MissChief

I’m a foreign and non-Muslim pilot and I quite enjoyed my better part of a decade in Saudi Arabia. If you embrace the culture a little and stop grumbling about the job you missed out on back home a lot can be learned. I made far more money in KSA then I now make in my own country.

The Saudis made a plan some years back to eliminate their dependance on foreign help. They didn’t make a secret of it. It is their airline and they can do with as they wish. To complain that they followed through on their plan seems a bit self centered. Perhaps the powers should be praised for executing the game plan. Sitting around wishing that this wasn’t going to happen seemed a bad plan to me so I resigned and found another job. There is no need for hard feelings, life is short.

If having a wine or beer in public is your biggest gripe with Saudi Arabia, once again they make no secret of this. Why take the job? I personally had no issues finding a cold beer or a fine glass of wine, it just wasn’t done publicly.