EK 25/3 Pilot forum Agenda .pdf
 

It's an EK Union revolt!

Some good stuff in there. A few, however, that I'm not sure about.

Why would you need 2 hours before departure? I don't know any airline that operates with a FDP as restrictive as that. Took us long enough to get the current report time!

Avoiding certain pilots? Chances are you'll only ever fly together once anyway.

A day's credit for RTGS study? This phase had only the tech exam. However, we should certainly get full credit for the sim. Leave credit should be brought back too to avoid over working on leave months.

Off 3 days over Christmas for Christians? Organising such a policy would be nigh on impossible and again, don't know many airlines that apply it. If non Christians didn't volunteer, would they be forced to work? Can't see that going down well with the locals. They celebrate it as much as we do...minus the booze of course. Well, allegedly! Datums would also need changing and most of the simulators would remain unused. Ain't going to happen. Considering December 25th is the most requested day off in the year, the fact that the Company chooses not to recognise it as such is disappointing.

Either way, a lot to look at, especially pay and hours.

Harry

Good one! April Fool's day already?

I agree with Harry, keep it simple. In a past life I had a bit to do with union negotiations and a list of demands that long won't go down well. I say go for package improvement which in turn will (hopefully) attract more pilots and hence improve the rosters. The rest is all pie in the sky.

Thanks to the PDF creators!! Hope some stuff catches on.

Not to disillusion you though...
But this Forum is for THEM to get the pilots numbers back on track with the MINIMUM salary rise. They must raise some this time anyway.
When the world goes into the next slump, most perks will be dumped again.

Some of the stuff in the PDF is spot on, some other is neverland's stuff (this is only Dubailand...).

Whoever goes, please push for the realistic stuff, things that do not cost them much and may actually stick if gradually implemented.
Like the 50% roster option for senior guys.
Or a guy to stream feedback on an FCI or other technical without an ASR or CSR. After all, who of us wrote back saying: Your new G/S from above is to rofl, specially in these destinations...

Good luck to those going. Don't get carried away... 😅

I do agree we should speak as a one body focus only on most relevant stuff. Keep it short and simple.
Things which will stop ppl leaving and attract new joiners - salary increase , rosters and lifting upgrade age restriction for FOs.

Pay us More, Work us Less!!

The rest will sort itself out..

Some very good stuff there! But how about for the education allowance to also cover the nursery years as well. For FOs with toddlers in nursery it becomes quite an expenses, especially with everything else being so expensive here.

Minor point but ....
Children are allowed in the flight deck on the ground . The restriction is in 8.3 and the security chapter says refer to 8.3 . That means ( movement )

1) Fewer hours
2) Salary increase (+20% salary to keep us where we were 2 years ago)
3) more monthly days off
4) hours credit for leave (approx 5 per day of leave) and sim
5) less punitive culture.

Strangely that will make the airline more attractive and recruitment will improve.

No they’re not(OM-E 10.5.4.1)

Sadly, anything that increases cost will likely be a non starter. The city and the airline are broke. The pharaohs will continue the slave like conditions.
:ugh:

reading some of these posts and also the ones on the facebook group...:ugh: sorry to wake you guys up, but you really think anything will change here....you really think they will do something.... better wake up.... go ahead and waste your day off.l.l
it’s a race to the bottom, and as long there is no management shake up -big style- nothing will change...

If you don’t like it just leave!!

Still think they are . It’s the same line as in chapter 10 of oma which says refer to 8.3 which is flight . Oma supersedes om e ?

After reading that document I can only feel embarrassment.

Total disconnection with reality and lack of professionalism.

Sorry to say but we are our worst enemies.

Can't agree more.

Nice try.

As i foresee it, some Submuppet will show up pretending to substitute the Megamuppet. He will welcome everybody, thank for the many inputs, not the letter which has to be disregarded because the law does not allow unionised opinions.
He will gladly respond to the multiple questions, however excluded were all subjects regarding rosters, leave, financial stuff and housing/education fees.

So, Gentlemen, the first question please ......

Its Shooting for the stars.. Granted, but its NOT beyond the Type of Working Conditions that many Pilots have in many airlines around the world.

Its worth a Try...

Otherwise the only answer is too leave.

Rostering = Lifestyle = Happy well rested productive pilots = Pilots staying for the long term. Just my 2 cents (minus 5% of course....)

Agreed. Give some control over roster by getting ride of those stupid rules and life will improve quickly and greatly. Also man the individual fleets so all leave can be taken and attrition will decrease.
But as gloi has stated. ATC is the instigator and he ain't about to change a thing.

Quit rocking the boat and let the company die the slow undignified death that management has set forth. Who are you to go against their plan anyway?

The sooner the company dies the better off so many people will be. They might not know it but it’s true.

In my opinion way too many suggestions in the letter. Too easy for the company to grant a few of the minor requests, ignore the important major requests and then say, "See, we're doing a lot for you pilots". Stick to a few major points.

A few points...

It is great that someone has taken the trouble to write out this PDF documenting the points that they feel should be raised at the forum, however..... I believe that this was taken from opinions gathered from 1300 of 4000+ pilots. It was the first I had heard or seen of it so I am one of the 68% who had no knowledge of something purporting to be on my behalf.

Whilst many of the points have validity, there is far too much niff naff and trivia for this stage of 'negotiation'. Giving the management a million options to claim improvement to the terms and conditions whilst skirting around the main issues of pay, leave, rostering and time off does us no good. Examples of irrelevance at this stage include EFBs, no training over Christmas etc etc, stick to the bones of the matter.

Some of the points make the pilot group look childish. As stated already sick to the big issues , rosters / manpower/ pay, everything else will follow.

Felixthecat is spot on!

Very true. Releasing such a ridiculous list of demands in public will work against your aims.

The 5 major areas should have been identified and specific figures justified with rational arguments, which reflect the bottom line.

Calculate how much the VAT and other risen expenses costs the pilot, have a number. Calculate how much the company would have to pay for such a pay rise in toto. Offset it against the costs of staff turnover.

The bottom line is that unless the Company is feeling financial pain or corporate image deterioration, it has no motive to increase compensation and leave whilst reducing workload.

If I were a manager at EK I would dismiss this letter with significant irritation to say the least.

We all know maturity and common sense are only attained at age 35 (fleet specific). Surely an underage career FO has composed this.

Pretty amazing to see the desire to self censor a starting point to a negotiating based on what you think is achievable.

The Stockholm syndrome is very strong in EK Pilots and you only realize this once you're a year or two removed from it.

NEGOTIATING? When has anything been negotiated in the ME? You don't negotiate with this company. There are no table openers to give and take. Be realistic man. The only give and take is.....you give, they take. Oh, and is there a committee that will represent pilots' wishes? Who elected the negotiation team? Contract study group? Informational picketing? ID lanyards stating, "I support the EPA" (Emirates Pilot Association)?

But also stating that going is a waste of a day off, is the same folly. Having worked in management before many of you were born, if a meeting such as this is called and no one came......"well they're not as upset/mad whatever as the noise makers on the Prune make it seem".

Waste of time.
 

Dear all,

If a company was serious about making changes to its employee benefits, they would send out proper questionnaires, collect data and make cost effective changes to improve employee satisfaction.

A couple hours in an auditorium does not allow time or focus to seriously discuss any issues.

It may be entertaining for managers to be on stage fielding questions from the hostile mobs, employees vent and feel better but this is not how serious change in large complex organisations gets done.

If you get a chance, attend the forum and vigorously voice your concerns, in addition everyone can email our relevant manager and HR continually with your personal list of concerns on a daily or weekly basis.

If they don’t keep it simple and to the bigger issues then expect the May email to look something like this:

-We are issuing all pilots with a tie clip. Many of you were concerned about your ties flapping in the wind from the bus to the aircraft.
-We have approved the “Avoid to Fly With Staff#”. We don’t want anyone flying with a colleague they don’t want to.
-We have informed IT to come up with a fix to enable the EBT to have a shade of blue as many of you were concerned about your eyes getting tired during the 0001-0559 time period.
-We have also enabled a bid option to have a Christmas free PPC. However due to bid limitations, you can only select LOWEST option for this bid.

Naturally as there were a large number of requests, it could not be possible review them all. We thank you for your support and see you next year!

Whilst reading that reply, you’ll be subjected to a morose tune played on the worlds smallest violin.......stolen from Yorkshire Puddings’ post.......

At least LTF got the ball rolling so we shouldn't shoot the guy for trying.

Like it's been said for those who manage to attend keep it simple and stick to the main points, Salary Vs Roster, remember how many emails we got about getting new BMWs it was a distraction from the main problems.

Bottom line we are not the only airline that needs a lot of pilots this year, weather they are making money or not if they don't attract pilots by upping their conditions they will be no different to Ryan and Norwegian, they couldn't crew their aircraft last year.

What did happen to the guy at Ryan Air who they blamed for the lack of pilots, hence cancelled flights or was it something to do with all the pilots needing to take leave at the same time??

The document is fine and well, if we were working for a different airline in a different country with a proper negotiating team. We’re not

KISS

For me
> Pay
> Roster
> Seniority in bidding preferences
> Full 42 days of leave
> Relax the restrictive eswap/roster build rules

The same was send to flydubai management. Same issues, same results. Blank stares and nothing happens.

It's a Christmas list more like but plenty of stuff which you'd have half a chance for if you had a Union....
Some of the comments on CRC and 24hour layovers are more like common sense or FRMS if you had a good system in place
:\

R-E-S-P-E-C-T.

As long as the company continues to lack respect for its employees nothing will ever change. Everything else is simply trying to put lipstick on a pig.

64 posts about 2 women flying and only 43 about your professional career speaks for itself....

Focus, gentlemen!