Finally a commuting roster on the 777!
 

According to Fleet a possible 17 days off can be achieved with the new contract on the 777??

The devil will be in the details of the revised terms and conditions. A paycut for sure, but how much? What about housing, medical and schooling?

Still, a very interesting development. If they do go for commuting rosters it makes sense to start small with the freighter.

Waiting to see the reduced package before biting.
Could also leave you subject to tax in your home country.

Still, it's a positive start so credit where it's due.

28 days on and 13 off! Count me out.

28/13 isn't that great. A good start but have to be better. Not really good for commuting if you want to see your family.

It equates to 9.6 days off per month.
That wouldn't be enough for me to see my family on

21/14 would be a lot more interesting, that would equate to 12.1 days off per month

Will be interesting to see the actual TnCs end of the week

As has been said, I'm sure EK will get more than its pound of flesh, its inherent in their nature. But I'm hopeful this is the beginning of some progress. Good idea to dip their toe in on the freighter contract.

Think you have to remember that both EK and Dubai appear to be hemorrhaging cash at the moment.
I reckon this is just an attempt to reduce costs.
As stated the devil will be in the detail, but I doubt the Ts& Cs will be anything like current poor standards, they will be worse. Also I would doubt there will be discounted firm tickets included within the deal, therefore comutting will be out of your own pocket.
Let's see what they dangle in the water as bait with the package, could do with a good laugh.

If EK doesn't include free J class upgradeable to F class confirmed seats then it is taking the wee wee and threatening its own operation as there would inevitably be pilots not getting to DXB in time for rostered duties. An integral part of any commuting contract is free J class travel to/from home base and work base.

It looks to be a commutable contract, but certainly not a commuting contract, unless of course there is provision for tickets etc etc.
21 on 14 off and they'd be killed in the rush, but that wouldn't satisfy the slave ship mentality, nor the control freaks.

Commuting, doubt it.........
 

28 on, 13 off, yes all very well. But surely we know what's coming - " new freight dog acclimatisation requirements to have spent the previous 12 days in DXB prior to commencing duty ", for no particular reason.......

I especially love the way they say an individual's performance and attendance record, and pilots who've previously demonstrated flexibility, will be taken into account when selecting the chosen few.... in the same missive as telling us that there will be external advertising for the positions also. How is a new joiner's flexibility, performance and attendance record to be assessed?

not to be pedantic but where does it say "commuting contract?"

because my copy doesn't appear to read that way

and as other's have already said...the devil's in the details

just the first little stroke, see my post on the end of FT 2016-17 thread.

Who are the pilots who fly the Emirates branded 747F working for? They are on full time contracts, I wonder what their terms are. 9.6 days per month isn't exactly stellar, even Norwegian are offering 12 off a month on a full pay package. Basically the difference is that you get the days off together, but with a probable huge difference in terms.

The devil is in the detail but all I can see is similar working days away but now grouped into large chunks (think 418 several times a month) Yes flight hours 'may' be less but time away from home will in total be very similar but for less money and less allowances.

IF, it was such a good deal, they would have announced pay and other statistics. The reason they didn't is to see how many enquire and the more = the less the package will be.

Jack

It is just typical management mind games to use words such as 'selected' and 'assessed' to make it sound like a juicy proposition that will be oversubscribed.
The truth of the matter is that EK has a desperate pilot manpower situation and they are just mining their wealth of dirty tricks to try to 'solve' their problem without awarding an across the board pay rise. If there is no guaranteed J class ticket between home and work bases and if the terms and conditions are any less than the existing contract (EK will still save on accommodation costs) then it's a non starter for me.

I would wait until the terms and conditions are published and then, in all probability, find them totally unacceptable and write in to CM telling him what we think.

The 747F contracts are terminated.

Where does this 9.6 days off per month come from? There will have to be the usual legal days off in the 28 days on roster as well. Of course, some could be days off downroute.

There would just be a gap of 13 days before the next 28 day rostering period starts.

I have worked a 2 months on, 1 month off roster before, which equates to this one.

As was mentioned above, I wouldn't expect tickets included as it does not say commuting roster.
Where you are on your 13 days off roster would be subject to the usual rules I suppose.

28/13 is 1 day off per 2.15 worked. thus 365/(2.15+1)=115.87 periods a year
115.87/12 =9.6 off a month averaged over a year. Your currently getting 8 on the average....so an extra 1.6 per month off with your family.

Legit days off could well be down route, as they were advertised in the last freighter version.

747F are still flying, and I would be surprised if they were terminated since they carry odd sized freight that the 777F cant carry. If they have been terminated I wonder what they were previously then?

First 74F is out in June, second in November.

halas

You still have to have 7 legal days off in any given 28 day period so it would be 20 days off total in every 41 day rostering period. (13 of which are consecutive.)

I guess you are talking about commutable consecutive days off.
Apologies if I misunderstood.

Anyhoo, I'll wait for the small print.

Some info on the TNT B74F

Emirates to end use of 747 freighters, citing weak cargo demand | Airframes content from ATWOnline

Isn't that 7 days in 28 averaged over a 3 month period? (Don't have the OMA handy so could be wrong) If it is then the 13 days nicely takes care of that.....

No, it's 7 days off in ANY consecutive 28 days, so it's in addition to the 13 days consecutive.
Let's see just how reduced the actual package is.

Does this mean that for the first time ever EK are admitting that there is a problem and that they are short of pilots...?!
As been said before, its a start but before anyone gets excited I think you need to see the T&Cs as one thing is for sure is that this type of contract won't come for free and out of good will.
The OM-A will have to be re-written with loads of Annexes forbidding you to do this or that and allowing them to do what they want to suit operational requirement!

re-read the email. It's only the freighter and only for the 'chosen' ones.
15 planes in total, so will affect less than 200 pilots (less than 5% of total, less than 10% of Boeing fleet pilots). What a great deal.... 28 on, 13 off...:ugh:
Last time I spoke to a UPS B777pilot, he told me he was on 15on 13off or so.

:ugh:

What are the odds that they'll offer it to external applicants over internal?

When they need bums on freight-seats and can't find enough EK pilots accepting the T&Cs.
Just wait until they are published and then read the reactions on here. It will be a good indicator of the odds.

Seniority
 

Note the subtle change in wording in the email. One of the criteria on which applicants will be assessed is " length of service" This is deliberate avoidance of the use of the word seniority. A sure sign that seniority is well and truly a thing of the past and since the list was scrambled the average pilot has no reference to his or her position in the pecking order.

An interesting development if nothing else. I am willing to bet that the 13 days off is the only selling point in this new contract. The rest will be pure poison. I would love to be proven wrong but 20 years of exposure to EK policy has brought the cynic in me to the fore.

2 'flexible' days at the start of the 13 days also....is that 11+2 flexible or 13 +2 flexible....

I thought the last time they announce the exclusive Freighter only membership, there was such an overwhelming demand from crews, that it would have been a done deal by now. More smoke and mirrors, an attempt in their continued desperation to bait the trap. If you want a real commuting contract there are plenty of real airlines out there offering real commuting terms, 14/14 not a bogus 28/13. Maybe if you are single/divorced/ hate your family this would appeal to you. This wont solve the problem with the airline over the short/long term. They may have airplanes, but their business model is a labor camp, not airline, until they commit to real change, look for the downward spiral to continue.

There seems to be quite a few 777 skippers going to Ethiopian for the 20/10 roster. This is equivalent to that but with the bonus that emirates is arguably still a better place to work.
I can't believe they would be stupid enough to make this offer without some deal on travel. Having said that, they never fail to out do themselves with regards to stupidity!

The company has little desire to encourage you to live outside of Dubai, as that conflicts with the whole ethos of the Dubai leadership. Perhaps this is why the word commute has been carefully excluded from the initial email? As a result I would expect no travel assistance whatsoever on your days off.

On your 28 days on - you will essentially be working a full month for less cash, as has already been hinted in the email. This is nothing more than a cost saving exercise for the company!

Accurately summed up in terms of Zero cost, i.e. If you are happy that's a cost.

Plain Sailing-A 28/13 Roster is definately not the equivalent to 20/10. It is a very different dynamic. If you have never deployed anywhere for a month or more I understand why you think this but they are VERY different animals. If you have deployed for 4 wks or more then I will have to assume you don't have or don't like your family!. The ONLY life balance for 28 days away is 28 days off-and even that is arguable in terms of family disruption. If you are single, or kids left home, then it works as it allows you to have another life/business/whatever floats your boat.

Surprised to hear 777 skippers leaving to Ethiopian. I know that money isn't the biggest factor at EK but the Ethiopian deal is an embarrassment.

Interested to see how this contract looks. As I've heard you chaps say all along - a commuting contract would solve pretty much all of their crewing issues.

Let's see if a 'commuting-lite' contract does much to stem the flow.

[QUOTE=Rainman7;9730108]I thought the last time they announce the exclusive Freighter only membership, there was such an overwhelming demand from crews, that it would have been a done deal by now. More smoke and mirrors, an attempt in their continued desperation to bait the trap. If you want a real commuting contract there are plenty of real airlines out there offering real commuting terms, 14/14 not a bogus 28/13. Maybe if you are single/divorced/ hate your family this would appeal to you.

You EK guys need to lose the "hate your family" mantra when you commute. I would argue the exact opposite. You must really hate your family to force them to reside in Dubai. You're so fatigued that any days off with them in the shiny city are overshadowed by your crap temper and general feeling of malaise. Dubai and EK is a divorce factory no more or no less than a commutable roster. The industry is such that you do what works for your personal situation. There are no great options anymore. When the money was good and the rosters not a slow death sentence, EK was a tolerable option. That ship sailed about 7 years ago. Waiting around for things to improve is a fools game. EK could never manage commuting pilots. The company is a patriarchicsl control freak that needs its pilots squashed under its thumb. Stop dreaming. If you hate it leave. If you don't stop complaining.

Firstly, 20 divided by 10 is 2.
28 divided by 13 is 2.15 so you are technically correct but it's pretty close. If you take the extra day traveling on a 20/10 roster I would say it's equivalent.
Secondly, Why do dimwits like you always have to make thing personal and tell me I hate my family?
Thirdly, I am not interested in this contract, I was just making an observation!
Fourthly, The only proper commuting options are in the Far East, which while giving a lot of off time, leave you extremely jet lagged if you are commuting to Europe.

The 'reduced' cash will be due to the fact that the freighter flying can be 'unproductive' with lots of down time. The pencil pushers want a cost 'per hour' balanced into a 'month'. In other words, they want to pay you less, since you fly less, yet still be away more.

The problem with a commuting roster for EK is that they are competing with BETTER contracts at other companies. Why would anyone come (or stay) to fly 28/13 when they can go to Korean (19/11) or China or.............

You add in the fact that for most countries (where you will reside) there are tax treaties. Not so with the UAE so you will pay tax on the full salary.

I'll reserve more comment until they actually publish the conditions, however, just guessing that it will be bare minimum. I'd also suggest it may be a way for them to test the waters to see exactly how LITTLE they can offer. If enough EK/outsiders accept it then they know they can keep conditions soft.

Trader

Think you'll find that the DTT (Double Tax Treaty) between UAE and UK his being implemented this week.

Gulf News

Please excuse my ignorance here, but can you please explain the difference between 'length of service' and 'seniority'? If someone's been here longer, they're more senior, no?

Emma Royds

Yes you will, but conversely you'll be paid for sitting on your arse for a fortnight after each and every month.


Although not for many, at least this contract is a step in the right direction. It certainly offers more potential than what's currently available and if the final T&C's don't add up, don't take it. Either carry on complaining here or depart to all these marvellous contracts that are constantly being quoted. You still have to have the legal one in 7 and 2 in 14, even on the 28 day cycle. If they don't get enough uptakes, they'll either increase the package, scrub it or do it in reverse seniority.

My bet is 70-75% pay with commensurate reduction in accommodation allowance and Company Provident fund contributions. May tempt a few into a gentle retirement still.

Harry

I'll be intrigued to see what this could possibly look like, considering there is no income tax in the UAE (yet).

I don't know of any DTTs the UK has which differ from the basis that you'll pay the equivalent amount of the higher tax country, but some of that will go to the other countries coffers.

McNugget

Article was in today's Gulf News. Ironically, if anything, it should work in our favour regarding income tax liability.

Harry