I don't recall anyone being forced to join the elite egocentric group of star wearers........ stop your bloody whinging and please for all our sakes get the dictionary out and check out the diff between training and checking.... 380 landing techniques are just an example!

Rumour or reality?
 

Sorry to change the topic a bit...

Rumour is of carnage in training. New FOs failing left, right and center. Ok, maybe 'carnage' might be an exaggeration, but the rumour is that there are significantly higher rates of disruption to trainers rosters due to trainees being taken off-line, interview days, back into the sim etc. At least higher rates than yesteryear...

Based on the product coming through the door , that is to be expected, but senior management can not understand why.

What you pay for is what you get ;)

Edit: When you lower the requirements you have to invest into the training. Lowering the requirements and no investment into training will lead to trouble.

Is the training for an Emirates FO especially difficult or unfair? Compared to a US major?

No. If you know your stuff you shouldn't have any issues with the training!

Unfair, not really...more difficult, probably. Overall, a higher expectation of knowledge of SOPs, OM-A (FOM) data, minutiae, and proper R/T. Not as much knowledge of systems as many US carriers. A greater need for knowledge of Rules and Regulations of a varied system network. JUST MHO.

Large amounts of rote learning so you can regurgitate how to paint by numbers, very little practical airmanship required

Ok, time to defend the trainers.

ruserious: if you don't rote learn some stuff, so you can recall it at will, you should never pass any course, anywhere. Grow up.

Being asked a question in training is not checking: questioning is a valid technique to determine where the trainee's knowledge level is: why work through stuff he/she knows?

There have been many trainees very used to being spoon-fed the whole course. I won't name where from, but they are quite a big group and sometimes initially struggle to get to terms with the concept of turning up prepared.

The return to instilling (I'm not sure that it's something can can actually be trained) airmanship has been a focus on the training dept for some time...a drift away from the old 'if it's not in a book, it doesn't happen' methodology.

Basically, anyone who turns up with a modicum of skill, common sense and diligence will pass the course. There is no checking conspiracy.

Agree with Trimotor. Those that show up unprepared or prepared to fed are in for a shock. It's not just an EK thing .

To be honest been 'spoon fed' is one of the main culprits in the overall industry wide deterioration of standards/airmanship. If you aren't interested in extending your professional knowledge through background research, and don't arrive at a lesson having reviewed the content-thus maximise the benefit to yourself, then IMHO you have the wrong attitude to be in ANY cockpit anywhere. It is our job to be as prepared as we can-that is intrinsic to professionalism. As far as training goes-given lack of trainer continuity-a trainer must ask questions to ascertain knowledge so that training can be delivered at an appropriate level. If this identifies that the trainee is not prepared-then that is the trainees issue-not the trainers. This applies in any profession and also any educational strategy except perhaps that of pre-school.

I totally agree, preparation is elementary and wanting to be spoon-fed is unprofessional.

But what many are talking here is that as trainee you might expect more than questioning what you retained from preparation from the books and charts. You might expect knowledge and experience BEYOND that, this is what eventually brings you further and that should be provided by trainers.
This is sometimes lacking at EK and the reason is that many trainers getting into the job too early simply do not have that themselves.

That would be the responsibility of the managers in training.

Interesting discussion guys, kind of makes me roll my eyes a little and breath in the fresh non EK air.
Anyway here goes with my opinion FWIW.
Despite various attempts over the years and despite there being some exceptional individuals contained within the training dept, regrettably the same issues regurgitate themselves again and again. Yes being prepared is a must, it is a function of the individuals approach to their profession and how they view their path through the system such as it is.
EK and in this case the training department is quite frankly a reflection on the culture and mindset of the entire organisation. There is very little in the way of training that's is carried out because the majority of current trainers were never schooled in that manner themselves, the exception in my experience was the NAC course which was during my time at EK the most sensible and practical 3 months of training.
The leadership group in training have backgrounds that again apart from an exception or two, shouldn't be let anywhere near airline training, with the present culture of the place it's hardly surprising that a greater emphasis is placed on checking rather than a bit T. It is also entirely consistent with the ME in general that there is a far greater emphasis placed by the trainers on minutiae and their own personal status than actually being a beacon and providing guidance, they are in fact deficient themselves in being able to impart useful knowledge. It's all rather sad.
Contrast this with a recent recurrent in DXB no less at CAE where the training was an absolute pleasure, it was all about sharing and imparting with none of the nonsense that more often than not accompanied and EK training detail, what a delightful change :ok:

The sad fact is, here on the big bus, it is a requirement to have knowledge of over 13,000 pages of information (not including the DG manual). How is a newbie supposed to have a knowledge of what's important other than the FCTM, and the FCOM? The rest will come with experience. But much of the training/checking is on the OM-A and Lido documentation. I remember that during CRM recurrent it was asked what were the stabilized approach criteria. In my class about 1/4 of the guys got the right answer. Our documentation is the pits, and a newbie is supposed to have that knowledge?

FFS info is clear cut as to what topics are going to be covered . The baby pilots seem to get it.

Panther. If the newbies were not trained on OMA and lido stuff would they be much help to a line Capt? I cant see why training on company fuel policy, and info pertaining to FIRs we fly through could be considered over the top. As fatty says, all topics and references are given. They seem to handle it just as I am sure you did.

No argument on that, it is the level and emphasis on rote learning that is required that I am concerned about.

Thanks for the grow up advice, that is helpful

Why should LIDO GEN stuff be difficult? Yes there is a vast amout of info, majority of which is 'by reference', but how is it any different to JEPP GEN everyone was using in their previous life? Its exactly the same content; squak 7600 when you can't speak anymore, 2 red/2 whites will always look pretty etc!

What differs is FCOM and OMA, 2-3 months to have an above average working knowledge by the time you come up for your RLC, is a small requirement in just about any airline.

Can't remember ever been asked to regurgitate anything by rote in a pre sim brief except memory items & limitations ...and that was as a new hire.

Apply knowledge in sim - yep.

The gentleman asked if it were different than the US training. Simply said it was, not just learning to fly the a/c safely. Where some of the emphasis is placed comparison with other training from other parts of the world. Is one better than the other? Up to interpretation. I want a new f/o to know how to handle the aircraft in certain situations. After decades of flying, I have never seen the minutiae needed to be regurgitated as it is here. Take a look at a LIFUS checklist.....what is the trainee supposed to see what is important. He doesn't have the experience. Very similar to many India destinations with 15 pages of NOTAMS. What really is pertinent?