Mods, sorry for the thread drift, but this needs correcting.

Rex, either your mates are telling porkies, or the company has got it wrong, either way go and look at the definition of acclimatised in the FTL's. Refer yourself to the second sentence with respect to being acclimatised BEFORE going on leave.
I do it all the time, in fact recently I spent 3 weeks in the US with the family and landed back in DXB 14 hrs before operating a ULR.
All perfectly legal and within the scope of the FTL's.

Great roster in December!

One JFK one NRT, 4 Office days, 9 days off and leave between x-mas and New Year.

Works great for me.

Oh sorry I forgot - left EK long time ago :-)

Living the dream away from the insanity og EK.

Cheers

Monarch Man, I personally know one person who returned from Europe in the Winter (3 hours different from Dubai) 20 hours before a ULR flight, was pulled off the flight and dragged into the office for tea and biccies. I agree with your interpretation of the rules but the company sees it differently. If you have been doing it that way it just means you haven't been caught yet. When and if you are it is unlikely to be pleasant for you.

BigG, I don't wish to labour the point, but if said person returned from the EU having spent a night or 2 there during the winter, if they left acclimatised then they only have themselves to blame. The argument is often made regarding interpretation vs reality, or more to the point how the ULR variation is applied, so what? definitions are in black and white, I've made the point numerous times to the FDM, fleet and the CP and they have all agreed, so to say I'm due tea and biscuits misses the point, the GCAA approves the variation provided the company complies with the scheme. I'll take my chances TYVM.

You aren't dragged into the office for being unacclimatised in the above scenario, you're dragged in because they are nasty, bullying c***s and want to stamp out any dissent or resistance.

They know their own definitions and they know the point that's being made and they don't like it because they're trying to do something and appear legitimate and pilots undermine the effort by applying their own rules in black and white. Of course they ignore the need to be acclimatised before the ULR return sector, because it's a "trip" not a flight.

The whole "acclimatised" concept is naff considering this airline flies around the world and around the clock. Three nights to become acclimatised is BS when you've just done a ULR (or two) or a night turnaround followed by day trip.

I wish those confused here would learn the FTLs because knowing the rules occasionally allows you to beat "them" at their game.

So not having 3 local nights in DXB before a trip is unsafe but

in a month is okay? Right, got it.

Hm..something's not right.

Shortest ULR block is 27h+, shortest EU 12h+ and shortest T/A 2h+
That's at least 116h, doesn't make sense.

Maybe you're Not smart enough to figure IT Out. Since you have so Much Time pull Out the 3000+ rosters and find mine 😉


QUOTE=kcar;9191167]Hm..something's not right.

Shortest ULR block is 27h+, shortest EU 12h+ and shortest T/A 2h+
That's at least 116h, doesn't make sense.[/QUOTE]

Errrrr leave on the 31st on ULR👍

mid group: 101 hours, 9 days off, 7 turns. I fly for xmas and will enjoy the fireworks from BUBIN . Only one flight that I bid for. :bored:

Monarch-
If you were doing a ULR out of Seattle (after having spent 2 weeks there) - You would be acclimatised for a ULR duty ex Seattle.

If you have been on leave in Seattle for two weeks then come back to Dubai the night before your ULR ex Dubai, you are not Acclimatised in Dubai.

The second sentence in the definition refers to where you leave Dubai - Acclimatised then go to say- Incheon, then after blocks on at Incheon - you are now no longer not acclimatised.

I'm afraid to say that you have been illegal operating a ULR after leave within 12 hours of getting back to Dubai.

Or maybe you don't know the definition of ULR.

Wrong.

Take some medical leave and go to Los Angeles for 3 months. When you come back to Dubai you are acclimatised.

You are tired. You are jet-lagged. But legally you are acclimatised because you never finished a duty outside the time band.

Operate to London. Do min rest. Return to Dubai only 18 hours after you left it. You are not acclimatised.

WTF?


Rex check what Dropp said. If you are acclimatised when you leave on your two week Seattle vacation, you'll be acclimatised when you get back because you didn't end a duty elsewhere. It's not necessarily sensible but why shouldn't we take advantage of it?
But that would mean being a responsible adult and planning your own sleep patterns to fit into your ULR upon return.
We can't have anyone thinking like an independent adult with all the control freaks running this circus.

Ok, can I just add a comment here, I know what it says in the OMA, but it is interpreted differently by the company, at least in my experience.

I was doing a SFO, the other rostered captain had come back from Australia from leave, had arrived in Dubai 18 hours prior to the flight.

During the pre flight briefing, the FDM called to say he had been removed from the flight as he was not acclimatised.

A reserve captain was sent.

What I never understood ( but I knew the reason) , is why you don't need to be acclimatised at the the other end of a ULR before you start the trip home.

Anyway, I know what the rules are, but I think it is who is interpreting that matters.

"Sigh"

SOPs, was he acclimatised to DXB before he left on leave?

Rex, what Dropp said is correct. In simple terms, if I do 3 DOH day turns 3 days in a row I am now acclimatised to DXB, if I now go on leave for 2 years before returning to work I am still acclimatised to DXB as
"The crew member will remain acclimatised thereafter until a duty period finishes at a place where local time differs by more than 2 hours from that at the point of departure"
All due to the fact I have not completed a duty period.....QED.

Sigh...Monarch I agree with you... It just that others that are your chiefs don't. That's the point I was trying to make.

"But I was legal to operate the flight, sir. A chap on pprune said so!"

"Sigh" "Sigh"



Drop and Monarch- You have to take the first sentence into account. Plus - come on now, the SOP was written to cover operating out of Dubai, not for the on leave situation.

I know of guys, (personal friends of mine) who spent 5 days in London, came back to Dubai, operated an ULR 12 hours later and got in the sh!t for it from the company.

Please feel free to continue on your interpretation of it, I care naught, but I know I shall come back from leave at least 3 days before a ULR.
I was rostered once, ages ago, for a ULR after my leave. I rang the FDM and told him I was not going to be acclimatised and they changed the duty. This further reinforces my interpretation of the OMA is correct over your version.

Best of the seasons greeting to all.:ok:

Isn't this why the Company will assume you to be unacclimatised for ULR roster planning purposes up to 3 days after leave? You might have to travel back on your last day of leave but not anymore than that as the roster system should compensate by giving 2 days off plus the one after leave. If it doesn't, you'd have the right to get the duty removed or delayed as Rex did. Using your leave to begin the 'acclimatisation process' would violate the purpose and definition of leave. The Aussie Captain that was mentioned in an earlier example being removed probably used some of those extra days off to extend his leave.

I'm on the fence with this one. Dropp et all I agree with. That is how the rules are written and they're there to protect us from poor Company rostering. However, the Company are using this as a requirement for us to follow, something for which the rule was NOT intended.

Like the 60 minutes report, it's something you'll either decide to fight or accept. I would fight my corner after leave but after 5 days off in London.......? Probably not to be honest.

Harry