THY 20% increase 777/330 for 70h per month
 

Seems THY just increased their salary by 20% on the 70 hr per month roster.

Along with a roadshow in Dubai.

Would this tempt the EK guys or not?

:eek:

Agreed
 

Yes, agree it seems pretty low to me?

And then you have to worry about home taxes too in many cases.

All these airlines need to get with the programme.

The bench mark salary for heavy jet captain on a contract needs to be around 18k to match the Chinese offers out there and ME carriers to some extent when you add in the perks. But if you need a job mates of mine seem to think its ok.

Wja

Yep,if they want to recruit from the pool of pilots in the Asia area,they will have to do better than 11000 usd :rolleyes:

Remember too that this is at todays exchange rate. With such a volatile currency you need to be compensated accordingly, either with a high salary, or exchange protection. I see neither.

Just like most of the other airlines, I don't see them doing anything to meet the market. What I do see, is requirements dropping to get the numbers they need to fly big shiny jets.

The 2000 Lira accommodation allowance is not enough for anything bigger than a 1 bedroom apt in a crappy building. This allowance was the same as 6 years ago when the Lira was substantially stronger. Any rent contract here increases by 10% per annum, but the allowance doesn't.

Long haul is a good gig, but do not come here for money or job security!

Why do you think the company wants to attract ex EK guys? Let's be honest where are all the sandpit pilots going to go tax free apart from SE Asia? Saving money? Yes why not, Turkey is not nearly as expensive as Qatar or Doha and even after all costs it's not difficult to save. Many of the European 777 guys live in their home countries and come day before flight.

11000$ for 70 hours
Vs how much for 95 (which is 35% more flying).

To that, you can effectively commute - Get a life - (Cannot be said the same at EK).

More is better but you have to compare apples with apples.

Remove half of it in tax, reduce the amount by a large portion since it's just a lie until you sign the contract (written in chinese btw) and add the cockroaches in the nice hotels, also that the FO that doesn't speak a word of english and even has his QRH written in Chinese. You are now comparing apples with apples.

Woodsja51
 

Your right the bench mark in China for a widebody Capt does seem to be 18K.
Which seemingly pales in comparison to what is on offer for narrow body Capts (500hr PIC) on a 737/320, with far superior commuting contracts IE month on / month off, if you can't avail yourself of the limited overseas based options.

However hold on, Hainan has improved their terms and I suspect Beijing Capital when they get their 330s will offer an industry leading package.
China Eastern have 20 777s coming, plus who knows what else is in the pipeline.

As LongReach allude to in their ME recruitment flyer, there are going to be some interesting developments over the next 18-24months in Asia, more so China, as the Chinese carriers expand their ambitions.

If an airline is offering the right package then the applicants will come to them and not the other way round, as we are now seeing with TK coming to Dubai. Draw your own conclusions.

Emma,
 

Hear what your saying, but even the legacy carriers attend job fairs in the US.
Seem to recall that even among the list of Top ten companies to work for in UK/USA etc, they all still advertise and attend campus events to recruit and actively headhunt.
So I wouldn't suggest just offering a good package means a firm (airline in this case) can rest on their laurels and not go in search of talent.

IMHO what is more important, are what are the actions of the company (airline for this discussion) to retain the talent they have recruited, rather than constantly allow inflation to ravage their salary, seek to extract every single ounce of productivity (to the detriment of said talents QOL and ultimately safety), while imposing arbitrary rules and procedures, designed to stroke the ego of the latest narcissist (oops manager) installed in the corner office. (Wherever in the world, said airline is located).

</title> <meta http-equiv="Content-Language" content="en-GB" /> <meta name="myLanguageType" content="englishUTF8" /> <meta name="Copyright" content="© 2015 The Emirates Group. All Rights Reserved." /> <meta name="Section" content=""></meta> <meta nam

Yes , draw your own conclusions

That's really way below market rates, they'll struggle to get guys from the ME!

Kingpost…

I disagree that TK will have trouble getting guys from the ME.

I do agree that the pay is not where it should be BUT… at some point to the ME pilots, money is not the issue. They will say enough is enough with the 92 hours a month, lack of reasonable vacation and time off between trips to fully recover etc

My guess is the TK Road show in Dubai will be standing room only. But I could be wrong too.

K

If the number one priority in a life is money, to the detriment of your health, sanity and family life, I pity such an existence.

I've personally resigned from 2 very well paying jobs, simply because my mind and body told me this wasn't going to work. First time was because I'd stayed enough time as an expat away from family and friends. The job and the company was great, but my gut told me it was time to go home. I didn't have a job to go home to, but left none the less. Through the network I landed a new job within a few months of moving home, with more responsibility, better pay and prospects, than the previous one. Trouble was, my boss was an idiot, the company was run by fools who had a collective track record of multiple failures, yet carried an air of grossly misplaced superiority. Senior management were, to a man, a bunch of megalomaniac w@nkers. I gave it my best, as I do have a very deeply rooted sense of obligation, but eventually my body told me this was going to end bad.

So, I resigned my position, and in the process had to make several 'downgrades' to my lifestyle, including moving into a smaller place and discard the poseur wheels.

I'm still back home, and through the network landed another job. This time I'm working for a great guy, with a great team of people, doing something I truly love. I'm also making less than 75% of my previous salary, but there's no happiness to be found in buying expensive, and largely unnecessary, things when you can't sleep at night, have no social life and wish your boss and the company would just go away forever.

If any of the above reads even remotely true for someone trapped in well-paying job that's driving them nuts, deep down you know there's only one solution. And trust you me, a Mazda 3 will get you just as well to the shopping as a Range Rover will. Even better, it will likely do so in a place where every other fellow road user is a not certifiable madman, with an overinflated ego fuelled by a V8 hauling 2.5 tons of air-conditioned metal.

SMT,

You missed your calling as a Psychologist!! I think you completely nailed it for many an EK pilot these days. Money is pretty good but at what cost?

The rosters are killing us slowly and it's time to move on….

K

NO, the THY pilots have not had their salary improved by 20% or whatever. Maybe in 2 months? In 2 years?

Call me paranoid if you like but has anyone else noticed that most people posting negative thoughts about other airlines we might be thinking about joining have only made one or two total posts?

In Halkaly..aka Halkatraz. sorry but that does not qualify as Istanbul or as anything more than an esthetically questionable array of dormitories built on a dump ( that is what the place was and you can still smell it) As said if you don't want to feel like an outcast in an unfriendly area, if you have a minimum of sense of esthetic and want to enjoy the positive side of not being in the desert ( but with a free villa or apartment) your balance is in the range of 3500 / 6000 TL for 1+1 to 2+1 and it will increase 8/9 % per year. The hotel..well..you will have to move out of your room every single flight ..go figure...

Spot on bob777. There are apartments that go for that amount in Halkali. For those of you not familiar with the area, it is an isolated third world dump. You cannot go outside the compound without a car. The area is a filthy s###hole.

Think about that for a second. You can rent a 1 Bedroom apartment in a very very poor location for 1600 lira. Plus with inflation in Turkey, landlords typically want 10% increase. So not long before the 2000 Lira only just pays for that too.

As an example, a 3 Bedroom apartment in Halkali was 1300 Lira only 2 1/2 years ago. Now its more than that for a 1 bedroom!! INFLATION IS HUGE!

Conclusion = Allowance is not enough.

@ twentyyears toolate

What about the leave allotment , how many days a year ? Is it correct that you will/can get winter -12 days and summer -8 without days before or after?
And is it correct that they (can)give you a flight at 01:00 the night your annual leave ends?

Boeingrestricted - Check your PM's.

The problem starts with the fact that there is no real civil aviation in Turkey. The vast majority of pilots are still coming from air force/army/navy and flew anything form F16 to CASA to helicopters. The style, the hierarchic system are still today very much the same.Many times I was asked "what squadron are you on" well..more or less. No leave first year , deduction from salary if sick and absurd related procedures, no money if you don't fly, 20 days max leave after one year , killing roster up to 110 hours per month, minimum days off ending late before your day off and starting early just after the place is survivable just by those that have no alternative.
Still the reason behind this fooked up Bulgarian charter style T&Cs is that of these pilots many would not stand chance if not else for the level of English ( 6 on the license 1 in reality).The remainder by the way is largely made of their sons and new blood is very rare creating kind of a professionally incestuous environment Ethics or meritocracy are unknown words. Only seniority counts. ..and who you know/are related to. Very dangerous in this business. I believe it will take 100 years to change this and therefore I decided not to wait. I still believe that expat pilot will not last that long in THY as they are evidently an anomaly. As said it is good if you are cashing your pension and want to make some extra money flying 777. Do not think of THY as a career move and stay far far away from Turkish narrow bodies .

I have heard it's about 70, maybe 80 hours for the 21 days flying on the 777.

Is it even possible to do 110 hours in those 21 days???

What is a typical 777 roster by the way…. anyone care to divulge or share?

Thanks

Kap

porkflyer;
You are right that there is a strong chain of command because of the ex military guys. For example a guy who left military with a low rank and yunger, another guy like 5 years later with an older age and higher rank.
The first guy has become a captain and the second guy sits on the right seat. They are struggling who is on the top of the chain. They still feel like they are in the military and act accordingly which i think is very very bad.
Annual leave is the right you get after you first year so you can think it as 20 days for the first 2 years, than yearly 20 days.
English level in general is bad. I mean bad for the captains of ex military. However captain number of civilian background is increasing. Those guys are mostly from the origin of aviation academy of university or engineering. So their english is pretty good. moreover you won't have a problem of CRM with any of them.
However! You never fly 110 hours a month in THY. I mean that is impossible in many ways. First of all the regulations of THY is according to EASA so the crew rest regulations are too. Besides company really really wouldn't let you fly that much because they are supposed to pay you the double of your basic pay. So THY prefers to hire another pilot instead of making one guy fly the whole flights.
I have a lot of friends at almost all fleets of THY so here is the deal:

B737: 70-75 hours monthly. High season: 85 hours. Sometimes you get the ground transport for SAW airport which is far away and the traffic is crazy so you spend like 2-3 hours to get there from home. Mostly Africa flights, 5-6 days layover here and there, but never in Europe. a lot of domestic destinations. 10-12 days off a month.

A319-320-321: 65 months monthly. High season 80 hours. Very very relaxed roster. One of my friends came to his hometown for 7 days in a row. Mostly Europe and domestic, sometimes ME, rarely Africa flights. 10-16 days off a month.

A330: 65-70 hours monthly. High season 75 hours. Very relaxed roster as well. Rarely Europe and Africa, mostly domestic(not more than 2 legs: ADB, AYT, ESB flights not exceeding 1 hour a leg) and far east flights. 12-18 days off.

A340: I have no friends on this type so no detailed information. THY is getting rid of 340's in time so i don't think information won't be available in a couple of years.

B777: 60-65 hours. High season same. A lot of South and North America flights, sometimes far East and Japan. 2-3 times domestic same route as A330. very rarely Africa flights. Sometimes you have 2 flights a month.
1 at the beginning of the month to the U.S.A and 1 at the end to far east like China. 10 consecutive days off in the middle.
At least 12 days off. Sometimes 20 :)
So as you can see you never fly 110 hours a month in THY. If you would be able to fly those hours(would definetely be covering your weekends) you would get paid like 26-27000TL at least as a first officer and that is like 9,700 euros a month. after tax which is impossible.

You can combine 4 days off at the end of the month and 4 days off at the beginning of the next in any fleet. So you will have 8 days off in a row. You get paid extra for weekend flights(i think only for sundays), national holidays, religious holidays. If you come home after 12 at night, the next day is given you as a rest day(not off). You have 8 days off minimum every month.

Don't go to B737 in THY. Any other fleet is really relaxed rosterwise. A lot of off days and crew planning respect your off days as far as i know. You mostly get your off days bidding.

I hope this information helps.

Thanks fo…

Perfect brief for us.

Gotta say, it seems a little better and better the more I look into it.

You mentioned they wouldn't fly a guy the more hours but rather would hire a second pilot so as to not fatigue the first pilot. I wish EK had that concept!!! And they wonder why so many are looking at other options….

K

Of course there are some problems in THY.
First of all there are 4 groups:

-Islamic oriented guys(due to THY is under the control of Turkish government and they are really strong in so many ways-would know if following international politics). Mostly don't know what they are doing. Just getting their really big paychecks with a lot of 0's on it and trying to poke people who know what they are doing. They don't like anyone except their own people.

-Ex military guys. Unaware of chain of command in civil aviation. God help civil oriented people if one of them came from general(commander) rank from airforce. They mostly don't like foreigners. In their twisted mind, the foreigners are the people who are taking the salaries of the upcoming military guys who are about to resign. Lack of civil aviation knowledge, some have good handling skills and general knowledge but mostly ignorant. Gets angry pretty quickly, sometimes breaking the CRM. Don't like civilians but thinking they are better than foreigners. Mostly lack of english, however surprisingly mostly holding an ICAO Level 5 or 6 on their certificate, which DGCA rated me as 4 :)

-Civil oriented guys. Mostly well educated and well handling. Some lack of general aviation knowledge but eager to learn. However THy has dropped down the requirements(about the general knowledge in the assessments) for the last 2 years. So the quality of new recruitments are not as before. However still better knowledge than military guys in general. Fluent english. Mostly young(from mid 20's to 30) Good capability of observation and situational awareness. In war with ex military guys who made them suffer for the last 10-15 years. Now getting good positions in the management and paying back their debts(REVENGEEE) to the ex military guys. Generally in good relations with foreigners.

-Foreigners. Generally fluent english and CRM. Sometimes becoming a little cocky and lack of respect(in terms of Turkish style). Getting their paychecks and keeping low profile. Staying away from politics.

So if you are a captain THY might be a really good choice especially if you are a wide body experienced pilot. If FO, you need to bare some sh.t attitude, but still able to maintain your nice flight hours and money.

Just as an additional information: For A319-320-321 fleet, most weekend flights are given to foreigners. I don't know why but they get better paychecks than turkish guys because of this.

And one more thing. Most of the fleets except B737 fly 800 hours maximum yearly(roughly). So for the EK guys who are sick of the company due to all night flights, fatigue and minimum rest in general might look up for THY(if they know the conditions). I don't think it is a very bad choice. And it is alway better to live in a ME country which is slightly infected by European style than a REAL ME country.

With such a detailed assessment of your peers,THY ought to promote you to TRE,first thing in the morning:rolleyes:

lol
I am not working for THY but any turkish pilot's target is that airline, especially and specificly wide body. I gave the information coming from friends directly. Some from military, some from civilian background. My first aim was the same. But right now my biggest target is to get out of Turkey as soon as possible. For a turkish citizen who is carrying a brain and can use it, this country has become the biggest center of torture(speaking of politics)
So good luck for those whose only aim is to feed their families and trying to get a better life for them.
My chance for THY or Turkey has long gone. Already applied for green card and if i can get there, i will not care for major or minor airline, i will be out of here...

A very good assessment I must say and my compliments for your English that, until a new Ottoman empire will dominate the world, still is the official language of aviation not so common in Turkey
I see there have been some general improvements and also read on a forum I can still access that a few foreign FO are now upgrading. That gives some points to THY.
Still I can show you my roster as B737 cpt back in 2011/2012 and I can show you that I was rostered more than 100 hours in a month mutliple times and flew 998 hours in 11 months. For what I hear/read at least on that fleet the situation seems unchanged.

porkflyer thanks for the compliments :8
Unfortunately i guess this is the curse of the type of B737.
However even for 737 things started to change. There have been a mass resignation wave from Pegasus(you probably know them under the name of Sunturk-the guys always asking for visuals and shortcuts lol ) In 2013 approximately 150 pilots joined THY and all are 737 pilots. So the crewing levels for 737 started getting better and better. Until the end of this year there will be so many 737 pilots in THY that they are going to have to switch their type to either 330 or 777. This is not a confirmed info but my guess.
As the 777 order rates are relatively lower than the 330, i can say many 737 guys are highly likely to be given to the 330 fleet. A320 family crewing levels seems to be fine but i don't know anything about the future of the fleet.

And Kapitanleutnant,
I said that THY would prefer to recruit one more pilot instead of paying the current one overtime. However this is not the company philosophy. THY had a very strong union about 10 years ago and they forced THY to give away many rights for the employees(minimum 8 days off per month where Turkish DGCA minimum is 7, really generous overtime/layover/weekend payments etc.). So this philosophy is the result of the gaines of the union.
However the union is torn apart now by the governing party of the government with a lot of manipulations and corruption like bribery, blackmail etc. So i don't think THY is going to give away more if they can have the enough crew levels.
As EK used to have enough crew levels until last year, they didn't give anything and they are now trying to get their butt together :hmm:
So if THY was at the same position and with the absence of union and a DGCA who is not even reading the manuals before approving, it would have been a disaster.
So none of the companies will learn not to make budget cuts on the crews unless they face the earthquake within.
By the way, THY catering rules.

As there are rumours about foreign FO's being upgraded i have spoken to a friend who is a 737 captain and assistant of chief of type(i think he started in 777 now). It is true that they upgrade foreign FOs. In addition to that; they have started giving TRI position to foreign captains who are willing to have one if it is ok with the seniority list.

This is my last additional info.

FO..

Check your PM's….

K

Dear Fo.....
Ek, in the last 4 or 5 years never had a proper number of crew.....
They always prefere to screw the pnes they have......
And things will not change......

Kapitanleutnant, checked and responded

flareflyer,
You are probably right. I am not really educated about the internal stuff going on in EK. Just had some bad experiences through some friends.
If that is true what you are saying(not having enough crews and still budget cuts and achieving the level of slavery) that is just poor management. Some stupid people would see the ship sink rather than listening to other people(in this case smart people).
It is just the same what is happening in my company right now. As people leaving they are trying to find excuses as he was a foreigner/he wanted to be with his family/he always wanted to fly wide body etc. and it will come to a certain point that they will not be able to find anyone, ground some aircrafts and give subcharters to someone else for a very high price.

Turkish Airlines - Announcement - turkishairlines.com

We assume they are targeting NAS and Ryan pilots as well as sand dwellers..
With FOs netting around 5000 Euros a month and Captains over 9000 on short haul fleets perhaps there will be some interest..

Turkish Delight
 

Roadshow in Dubai - 20/21 April 2015
Turkish Airlines invites you to take part in its exclusive Roadshow in Dubai
Istanbul's tranquility lies in its ability to embrace its beauties, and is one of the largest, liveliest and most exciting cities in the World.
Our mission is to become the preferred leading European air carrier thanks to its strict compliance with flight safety.
As the best Airline in Europe for four consecutive years, we understand that our customers choose us as their preferred carrier for various reasons ranging from our extended range of destinations that we fly to; as well as for striving to continue to provide world class service.
Turkish Airlines is currently seeking to employ Captains and First Officers who wish to become part of our continued growth and success.
For detailed information please visit:
Turkish Airlines - Career Recruitment - turkishairlines.com
Roadshow Details:
Date: 20-21 April 2015
Time: Morning Session 10:00 / Afternoon Session 15:00
Venue: Le Meridien Dubai Hotel & Conference Centre
Airport Road, Dubai - United Arab Emirates
We hereby sincerely invite you to attend.
:D

Regarding the upgrades, did those expat FOs hold a university degree?
I was told you can't upgrade without in Turkey.

777 facts
 

A typical roster is with 3 ER trips.
You might also get a quick day trip, on the rise recently with the fleet growth. Could be Izmir or as far as Lhr or Cmn.
In 2014 I flew about 850 hrs, monthly avg 71, with a min of 45 and a Max of 99.

You get paid overtime above 70, sims and deadheading included.
Current rate per extra hr is TL 282.

Minimum rest at base after ER is 48 hrs.
The block off days are 9, often get a extra one.
Plan on 13 off days per month, plus a couple of stby days.
Commuting is on a confirmed economy tkt.
As a Captain you are entitled to business, I have never travelled in economy so far. Same for wife. Kids get business only if travelling with you.

The 2000 TL rental allowance has never been increased, might be sufficient in some places, definitely not in others.
Salary increased in 2014 by about 10%, only just to cover the official inflation rate.

When you leave you can claim back from Social Security part of what was payed during your contract. Been told it's roughly one months salary for every year of stay.

Cockpit atmosphere generally relaxed, CRM not always at top with a few of the "colonels".
Recent intake of fo's quite good, most from their academy or from other turkish airlines or from defunct european airlines, quite a few germans.

Training, gnd or sim or line, not an issue...

If you talk to HR they will tell you with no degree you will be paid less as a Captain as the salary tier structure shows with " no high school diploma"
Regarding upgrades of Foreign FOs, let's see, from where I sit.. I can't see any planned, but then again who knows what's ahead. The chances of a foreign FO getting Captain upgrade on wide body is zero to minus 10!

marvelman,
I was about to share that information. Thanks for taking the action quickly.
The currency of $ against TL is very unstable right now. Yesterday it was 2,62TL and today it is 2,67. I don't know if THY has a currency rate protection for foreigners or not, but the unstability will continue until the elections which will take place on 7th June. After that FED will decide on incresing the interest rates and the currency is expected to reach 1USD=3TL.(3.2 according to some big shot CEO friends who work on some big shot finance establishments)
I think THY will respond to that quickly but you never know.
Some people might want to stay away from Turkey for a while. I think that is a good idea. Especially for ones who is looking for FO positions.

Can someone confirm the exact new improved salary in TLs?
Is it 29000TL+20% now?(for wide body captains)