Emirates - military threats at various destinations
In the light of recent incidents, I would like to know the background of the decision to stop the Emirates route to Damascus (18 months after the Syrian civil war started). What was the tipping point for the route no longer being considered safe or otherwise viable by the company? Does anyone know?
Quite a few Emirates destinations have been well covered in the news and on pprune recently. The most senior levels of management, although they don't have a crystal ball to see the future, are clearly content that safety is assured at these places (they must be because the buck so obviously stops with them concerning whether a route is operated or not). Peshawar - Pakistani PIA aircraft shot at while airborne. 1 passenger shot dead. 1 crew member shot and injured. If Pakistani commercial aircraft get shot at in Pakistan, one can only assume that other operators are not invulnerable. Karachi - two extremely serious attacks with seven people killed in the Emirates/DNATA ground operation there. Emirates aircraft unable to move for many hours with crew and passengers stranded in a darkened aircraft with gun fire nearby. Subsequent flights operated with heavy fuel loads according to another thread on this web site in case of further attacks closing the airport - which if true indicates that Emirates believed further attacks were a possibility. Kiev - no crew layovers there although flights continue using an unusual heavy crewing arrangement, making a turnaround flight possible. Emirates clearly considers there is a risk to its crew at the moment if it has taken that action. Parts of the country involved in civil war / Crimea annexed by Russia. Baghdad - rocket attack on the airport earlier this year. ISIS taking territory in Northern Iraq, but has so far been repelled from Bagdad. Kabul - rocket attack recently by the Taliban. Other attacks last year. Tripoli - rockets fired at the airport recently. 1 landing aircraft hit by small arms fire, though I think that was some months ago now. Erbil - many nearby towns in Northern Iraq under ISIS control. Erbil is not, however there have been ISIS attacks on the city and the surrounding area is extremely dangerous. Bangkok - recent military coup. People shot in the streets while protesting. I express no opinion here - just looking for information if anyone has any. |
Emirates cares about two things above all - it's image and it's profit. If, in the pursuit of either of the above, some of its employees are injured or killed then it would not matter to them in the slightest until it impacts on these two factors.
Arabs do not understand the difference between employing someone and owning them - why should they care if a couple of slaves get killed in the line of duty? |
Not military issues but threats also from MHERS and Ebola from passengers of those prime infected areas.
Risk vs Reward....... We bear the risk and they get the reward. |
Interesting list. Good 1st post afootsoldier. I'm only SLF and I'm not sure Eribil (that is the city and the airport) are yet in the same league as the others you list. But let's see what other PPRuNers think.....
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The Golden Rule..
He who has the gold rules!! |
Don't forget Sanaa' Yemen.
What percentage of these places are Airbus destinations. :eek: |
What percentage of these places are Airbus destinations. |
Anyway they have suspended flights to Peshawar.
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Peshawar - Pakistani PIA aircraft shot at while airborne. 1 passenger shot dead. 1 crew member shot and injured. If Pakistani commercial aircraft get shot at in Pakistan, one can only assume that other operators are not invulnerable. |
Emma
Exactly. As footsoldier wanted to know what is the tipping point to discontinue a route. In this case people inside an aircraft getting killed on approach. Time for risk assessment for many destinations. |
Where is the line drawn?
BKK has been mentioned, I don't think there has ever, in the various coups in Thailand, been any concern for the safety of civilian aircraft and occupants, although delays have occurred. JNB / LOS : Images of aircraft stood on bricks come to mind. Crews not allowed out of hotels unless in large groups and/or escorted. These are highly lucrative routes (except for SAA who could lose money on any route even with no competition), but will the airlines suspend them? No. |
JNB / LOS : Images of aircraft stood on bricks come to mind. Crews not allowed out of hotels unless in large groups and/or escorted. These are highly lucrative routes (except for SAA who could lose money on any route even with no competition), but will the airlines suspend them? No. |
What's sad about the PEW case is that the PIA pilots with local knowledge don't even turn on their landing lights on approach...that would have been nice to know as EK pilots.
Here is the Captains quote from an interview: "Chaudhry said he always turns off the plane’s main lights when landing in Peshawar, a city of 3.5 million people that has been a main battleground in an insurgency that has killed 50,000 people in Pakistan since 2001. The bullets came while the plane was 1,000 feet (300 meters) off the ground, he said. “Only the lights in the cabin and navigation lights were on, which gave the attackers a fair idea where the plane was,” he said. “We would’ve been sitting ducks if all the main lights of the plane were on.” The reason EK pulled out of PEW is probably due insurance company's conditions. I would like to think it had something to do with our welfare...but in light (excuse pun) of the fact that our threat of attack would be mitigated with the advice of not using landing lights...we all know that if there was real concern and proper diligent auditing done on safety measure s for PEW ...then we would have had this info...which of course we did not....too busy working on handbags. f. |
Except, AFAIK (CoNotam), EK were only doing daylight arrivals so landing lights wouldn't make a difference!
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If you look at a map of the world's trouble spots it's a lot like our route network, lol!!
Hey look if Emirates stops going to destinations considered safe by the CIA World Factbook or whatever source you like, we'll have about three destinations left. Just how it is. I've been here a long time and the way I look at it is we're not on anyone's takeout list, Dubai has long been a place where all the bad guys shelter money (especially since the Arab Spring began) and I don't think we, as an airline, are a particular target for anyone. That's not to say we might not find ourselves close to trouble, like the Karachi flight recently, but generally speaking I feel safe.....well safe from terrorism....not safe from ATC or the environments we sometimes find ourselves in but that's another story. |
Didn't Syria (including overflight) finally become out of bounds after someone's crossword was interrupted by a SAM going past the window |
I just hope all of you in the Middle East have read what went on after things went sideways in Lebanon, when many MEA pilots went to get "out of Dodge" they found that not only were their bank accounts gone, but so was the bank, in spite of this some brave souls kept operating, but with the loss of some of their fellow employees. If this can happen to what was in my humble opinion, the best airline in the world to work for, in a beautiful country, then it behoves your generation to take all the precautions you can to ensure both your future longevity, and financial security, no ME regime or government is immune to the present shambles, I'm not an alarmist by the way, just bin there, done that, good luck to you all!
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Yes EB, we're not on anyone's " take-out " list, but having been shot at many times in my career, I trust these f*^<kwits doing the shooting as much as the housing and HR departments, so don't feel too secure!!
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Helen - see my answer from other thread.
JAARule, Fair comment in June...however sunrise in December is at 7:20 in PEW, we land at 0700 and many times earlier (turbo wave) during the dark during winter months...been there, done that. f. |
ExpatBrat--we are a target for EXACTLY that reason! It is not AQ etc that harbour their money in the UAE but the governments and regimes they despise.
What better target than the airline that runs from the modern day 'Sodem and Gomaorah"! |
What easier target than an airline where the employees think they are not a target?
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Since when were these guys selective or rationale in their ideology?
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Due to the vast exposure we get in the media and the sporting world, I would say that makes us an even bigger target. If something sinister was to occur to a EK aircraft then it would reach the headlines across the globe, incredibly quickly. Isn't that what these crackpots want?
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Add Basra to the list! Always used to sh1t myself going in there.
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What about islamabad??
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A couple days before the attack on Karachi a member of the ground staff told me he would rather live in Islamabad because it was much safer. This turned out to be a prescient, chilling statement considering several members of our ground staff were later killed there.
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It is important to remember that EK has a "Duty of Care" for its staff.
A gentle reminder of such to the FDM or whomever is a useful argument in my experience. |
Strange, no mention yet of today's 640 flight to Kabul that held to the east of the field while a rocket attack took place on the field. Diverted all the way back to DXB landing with not a lot of gas.
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10 years ago I was scheduled to operate an A330 to Beijing just 2 days after a western chain hotel was blown up by terrorist with threats to target more westerners. I was concerned so went up to the second floor (Asain airline) and expressed it to the CP and another management pilot. Other management pilot was a good mate. CP waffled on about risk assessment, security precautions hotels were taking, what the airline was doing to protect crews etc etc. My mate the management pilot told me later that after I walked away the CP turned to him and said "d'ya reckon that bull**** fooled him?"
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Strange, no mention yet of today's 640 flight to Kabul that held to the east of the field while a rocket attack took place on the field. Diverted all the way back to DXB landing with not a lot of gas. There was a SpiceJet 737 delayed a few hours due to a rocket attack on Friday (article below) and the EK machine was stuck on the ground too whilst the Taliban played with their fireworks. :eek: SpiceJet Flight Escapes Rocket Attack in Kabul Airport - 4th July The final line of that article is of particular interest: The Civil Aviation Ministry is likely to hold a meeting to discuss the safety of flight operations to Afghanistan, official sources said. |
Is SpiceJet gonna continue flying there after that incident?
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Playing Russian Roulette in Ukraine
So no more Kiev route for the saddest of reasons. I can only assume there will be a restriction on Ukrainian airspace too.
Pilots try to anticipate threats using any available data, for safety's sake. Am I alone in thinking that considering the other large aircraft which have been shot down in Ukraine recently - the dangers of operating commercial airliners in this war zone were foreseeable? It's the inevitability of it I find chilling. Is anyone actually in control and making decisions? When you say to yourself now - 'commercial carriers have been operating passenger jets in an active civil war and were not deterred by two other large aircraft being shot down, they carried on despite that' - it sounds unforgivable. |
And does anybody feel relaxed flying over Northern Iraq?
I don't. Just a matter of time before BGW gets a suicide attack a la KHI, PEW, DAM, KBL etc f. |
Spice Jet cancels flights to Kabul. I think more airlines might follow the same.
SpiceJet cancels Kabul flights following spate of attacks at airport there - The Times of India |
Has anybody actually expressed any concern to the company regarding this?
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No need - Group Security keep a close eye on global developments...
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I'm sure they do....
In my previous airline a whole bunch of guys are refusing to operate to TLV due to security concerns, and as it stands the company accepts refusal of duty due safety concerns. I wonder where we would stand if some of us refused to operate to places like KBL, EBL, BGW etc, the list is long. Same goes for our colleagues in FZ, who fly to even lesss secure destinations. |
No need - Group Security keep a close eye on global developments... Since the Ukraine civil war started, an Il-76 has been shot down, so has an An-22 and a helicopter - the latest of several fast jets to be shot down happened on the morning of the 777 disaster. The airspace closure of Simferopol and even the official closure of Simferopol airfield itself was done extremely slowly, despite there being a Russian invasion. To say there have been indicators that this place is dangerous would be a statement of the obvious. One thing is sure - ALL other carriers who have been treating East Ukraine airspace as a normal day out have dodged a bullet and will be breathing a massive sigh of relief (in private). Malaysian have not been so fortunate, but it could have happened to any carrier who chose to continue using that airspace. I expect there will be lawsuits from passengers dependents. The press could properly spin this story and not just against Malaysian, they could question the industry as a whole. Some risks are accepted as part of aviation, but knowingly flying through a war zone to save fuel or access a destination is entirely at the discretion of the airline.. |
Bangkok
As I live here I can calm down your fears.
The military coup has put a swift end to political violence. Bangkok is back to normal - as far as this city can be. Anyone needing more info please PM. |
Just a matter of time before BGW gets a suicide attack a la KHI, etc Bush, George Dubya Must be nice for him to have such a vivid reminder of all his good work in that neck of the woods :ok: |
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