eldeer5
 

Folks wouldn't comprehend #37 (lateral thinking), so I will be direct. Your last post,#43, is very leading and your reasons are clear but my question is; Wouldn't you miss the challenge of taking the EK project (Hello Tomorrow) to another level to pitch the big D & others for that matter?
I'm only asking to understand and not to judge ;)

EK has since had a couple of female drivers so the reverse in the quote could/would hold :O

Are you in charge of writing the OM-As by any chance?

"Does that mean any US pilot that stays at Emirates is stupid?"

Fatbus why would you stay at Emirates when you can go to a major airline?
93 hours a month vs 75 hours with good unions, good ATC and a government agency that looks out for the pilots plus numerous other benefits in leaving.
So I wouldn't call someone stupid for staying but I would ask for their reasons for a better understanding and in case I was missing something.

Maybe there is some American pilots that could respond to that. I'll just keep my mouth shut on this one.

I would have a hard time understanding any American under 45 YO not taking or shooting for a position with DL, AA or UA. Hell I know 3 year FO at jetBlue who will make $155k this year. I've seen his pay slip. He works his tail off by choice but isn't working any harder than a EK pilot. When you see some guys getting wide body slots in year two and the upgrades continue to come quicker and quicker it really is unprecedented for the last 30 years.

You throw in a union, FAA, great ATC, buffalo wings, NCAA football and never hearing mam/sir ever again and the decision obvious.

Lastly just look at the profit share these guys are getting. Astounding.

Wait a minute Emirates got 3 weeks bonus for 93 hours a month while Delta got $40,000 for 75 hours a month.
My brother is a 777 FO at Delta and makes almost $200 an hour. That is considerably more than me and I am a 777 captain. When you include everything like work rules and all the goodies that goes with a major airline every American should not even be considering leaving. They should have their applications in and be ready to go.
What are you going to accomplish by staying at emirates? An early funeral?

I'll take it in on - on Fattys behalf.

Returning is not on for everyone, the biggest discriminator amongst my LHS mid 40's colleagues is age. Just don't want to uproot Fam from a good school as they are closer to college than the 30's FOs kids or single dudes. We also enjoy our life and friends here.

My buddy made $202k (green slippin') last year as a 7 yr FO MD88 ATL at Big D. He's in his 30s and cannot even comprehend some of the stuff I tell him - steely wheelies, monthly hours, Flt ops culture etc.

That said he understands that wide body command is perhaps more valuable than we give it credit. Times change quickly for the worse as we have seen over the years. This is perhaps the most dangerous geo-politically it has felt since 9-11. They will change again. Nigeria just declared a state of emergency - Ebola could get VERY nasty. I remember SARS, wasn't pretty and it directly affected my career.

For my generation, not near as many going back as alluded to. We know the devil we're dealing with, kids wife content, money going in the bank - to the young whippers like Eldee...
A no brainer.

f.

Good post f. Look at a position at a legacy as a career. Look at a position at EK as a means to an end. I would say age 45 is the max for returning. That is still a 20 year career. Not all Americans have the option of getting hired at the legacies right now. Might be a drink drive conviction years ago, no college degree (why a reqmnt, who knows), or other skeletons. Or some May have ego issues after being a captain on a 777 or 330/340 and couldn't sit in the right seat of a narrow body.

I will say this, if nonAmerican pilots had the option to return to their home countries and fly for the likes of the US legacies, with the future that appears to await them, I doubt many would remain in DXB. Tax issues and security would be just about the only reasons. Just my opinion.

While it is true that not too many Americans have left Emirates in the numbers the company is fearing I say give it time. As I said in a previous post my old company has over 200 Emirates pilots that have applied to join a US major. They only started hiring in Feb so let's just wait and see how many pilots have left Emirates this time next year.
Even if "only" half leave that would be very troubling for Emirates especially when they are having great difficulty recruiting qualified pilots. When you ask around almost everyone agrees that they can not go lower than 2000 flying hours.
So stay tuned.

The minimums for recruitment are higher than 2000 hours. They haven't gone that low. Yet.

The 2000 hours mentioned is as an element of the 4000 total.

But if a Ryan Air pilot has 2005 total hours all on a 737 can he get hired?
I know for a fact not too many recent hires have over 4000 flying hours.
The last two criteria seem to contradict themselves. Is it 2500 or 2000 flying hours?

Expanding on what calmcavok has already posted....

gl69, they are two separate criteria altogether. I don't mean to point out the obvious but the "OR" in the description should have clarified this.

The criteria are 4000 total time of which 2000 must be on a multi-engine jet.
OR 2500 on a multi-engine jet.

So in other words, a Ryanair (or any other Airline which only operate Jet Aicraft), those pilots will likely reach 2500 on a multi-jet but may only have 2700 hours total time. (I'm talking about those that have undertaken a zero to hero course with minimal previous flying experience).

But on the other hand, take someone who has lots of experience, say 2000 hours on a turbo-prop aircraft, but then has recently moved onto a jet....they need 4000 hours total time, to also include 2000 hours on a multi engine jet as part of the 4000 total.

Having said that, in the past when they needed lots of pilots, you could be hired by them with less than the requirements, but could only join once you had the hours mentioned above. Not any more that I am aware of.

This was directed at 737/320 family pilots - in other words not Embraer guys or similar!

Would any of you EK guys say that direct entry commands would be likely in the future at Emirates?
Thanks,
FBY

Absolutely. They are working on the new DEC contract at the moment. To make it attractive they are introducing a few new measures. The talk is that there will not be a new pay scale so it will be other parts of the package to be adapted:

No factoring; 84 hr Productivity Limit
Removal from the bid of days off restrictions
DECs put on a 3 month rotating bid with no reserve
Increased housing allowance
2 weeks extra leave/year
No restrictions on roster compression

From what I understand it is an attempt to create a commuting package whilst retaining adequate pay and remuneration.

:8

Hee-hee.

That was quite funny and I laughed out loud.

However, the question asked was genuine and deserves a fair answer.

Thee will be no requirement for DECs at any point in at least the next 10 years, as the expansion has (and will continue to) slow down as the final fleet numbers are revised.

There are many, many experienced FOs on the list who will be in line to take their place over the next 5 years.

Most new joiner FOs are low on hours but by the time their command comes around in approx. 10 years they will easily be qualified.

My advice would be to try a short-haul command down the road at the national carrier in Abu Dhabi... But then, why would you leave a short-haul command at home to come to the Middle East where life is much harder and the money probably not much better (especially if you're not on the long-haul left seat).

Hope this helps. Please have patience with most of the posters on this board as they are hot and bothered ;)

:ok:

Mr GC,

If the 2 weeks extra leave is considered to be over the 30 day guarantee we'd almost be back to 2002 with the "new" package. :ooh:

Thanks Mr Good Cat for your advice. I must admit Schnowser had me going for a second because from outside, all you hear about is Emirates vast order requirements so naturally you think that they might want experienced captains at some point.
I'm really trying to get an insight into Emirates because on the face of it they look to be an extremely modern and growing airline in a growth sector of the World, with good backing and future opportunities. Something it seems is sadly lacking at my Airline looking forward.
I'm a UK wide-body Airbus captain with over 12,000 hours, so although I'm not unhappy where I am, things are changing here (not in a good way) and it might be time for something new. (Even a move to the RHS if it was with a good company, and wasn't for too long).

Emirates also appeals because it's not hugely far from home than say a Far Eastern carrier, and seems (from what I can gather) to have an extremely multicultural workforce and a company ethos that being largely Expat, is supportive of a wide variety of expat pilots, rather than a cultural 'them vs us' that I understand, can be the case in a Far Eastern culture for the Westerner.

People generally are more motivated to post when they don't like something, so the large amount of negative posts and the odd blog I suspect don't tell the whole story. I'm also aware that there are a number of US and Oz pilots at Emirates and given the differences in culture and the distance that they are from home, I can see where the frustrations might lie. But they also may have a point!
Some of this may sound naive to someone already working in The Middle East, but it's not easy to see the wood for the trees sometimes.
So any constructive advice and information for a fellow aviator contemplating his future, would be gratefully received. :ok:

Many thanks
FBW

I agree that Emirates doesn't need direct entry captains but wouldn't surprise me if it happens. I think your best bet is down the road in Abu Dhabi....they are hiring lots of DECs

Fly by wire,

I have been at emirates for over 5 years and less than 8. I have lived abroad for most my life. Ek has until recently been very good to me over all and I have had a pretty good time in dxb. However lately I have been worked very hard, and with real inflation here high I am saving less and less. I am not a bitter worker saying don't come here in the hopes there is a shortage of pilots so my pay check goes up. I don't recommend this place to experienced pilots anymore. Most my friends feel the same. I have begun looking about leaving, first steps. Moral is low here. Right seat rosters on the 380 and 777 are good still, though getting tighter. The left seat on the 777 is bloody awful. And all the lads on the 330/340 are knackered. Do not presume that only guys that have an axe to grind post negative stuff. I would wager that the silent majority are unhappy.
Good luck in your choices.

You would be hard pressed to find any EK pilot that is happy anymore. As been mentioned many times in many different ways the direction the company has decided to take in the last few years is very troubling as there is absolutely no reason for this southward trend.
If they decide to add DECs to the mix that would be the last straw for a lot of FOs. How much more garbage can they take? Plus what kind of pilot would join Emirates knowing all that the company does and that DECs are coming in front of the new FOs.

Rain,
All FOs in the company now joined knowing EK hires DECs. They just gambled it would not slow them down. Can't see it changing in the future. Those jets are big and shiny remember.

The don

If you look at the history of some of our posts about EK, those who used to be quite positive about the company are now quite negative. That is the trend among the total pilot group. We have a great group of pilots for the most part and it is such a shame that the company has decided to take the low road rather than the high road on cost neutral quality of life issues just because they have control freaks and greedy money hungry pigs as managers/VP's.

If carriers (Asia/Turkey/BKK) start to accept current and experienced wide body F/O's for applicants as DEC's, I believe you will see how unhappy people at EK really are. Currently, every airline is requiring 500 to 1000 hours of wide body command time within the last 6 months to even apply for a DEC position.

DECs
 

At an interview I was given the reason for the 500 hours pic on type. They said it was a requirement of the insurance. Not sure why but that's what they said. Could also be specifically the insurer for that company. And yes 7 years ago I was happy here. Today I am not happy. The simple question is, (Whether you are happy here or not.) Do you think pay and work hours will suddenly, or even slowly get better? I think most of us can agree they will not. So if you are coming here, understand, that right now when you join it is the best it will ever be.

Don' t mean to be sarcastic..but why exactly airlines in Asia/Turkey or BKK should hire First Officers at EK as Direct Entry Captains?

I didn't say they should hire EK first officers.

I said if those carriers ever open up DEC hiring to FO's with widebody time on type......I said nothing about making it EK specific.

FBW, let's look at some of your statements:

First, never move to the right, if not fired or out of job. Second, never trust any indication of time to upgrade, especially in the ME.

Well, that might have been the case a few years back. With the silly new rules like only 5 days off in a row, rostering with many acclimatisation problems (need you to be in DXB two days ahead of flights) and the flights overfilled with cheap tickets they upgrade and almost no possibility to book confirmed flights for staff, the UAE sort of feels the same distance from home as Antarctica.

In that respect you will have a univocal "not", even from the rare species of happy EK buggers.

wrong again. It might not be outright racial, but definitely management vs. employees

It might not. There is a very good test for that, not only in aviation: Post some rumour about a company/club/community that is not very flattering but borderline possible and check the reactions. In most cases you will trigger many answers of the suspected "silent happy majority".
My bet is you do that for EK today, there will be the obvious bunch confirming that, but only some well known management muppets as positive voices.
Honestly, i don'y know any normal pilot who is happy at the moment!

I know it sounds strange, and i certainly know that the situation is worse at many other places. But a change of job especially to this region needs a bigger ΔT&C to make it worthwhile and stick, especially with a wife and family.

And as has been said before: The situation remains dynamic and the trend is definitely not good.

I've not bothered to read all of this because it's probably gone miles off track.

The long and short of it is, DON'T join EK, it's going down hill so fast.
Most of the other ME operators are improving, this lot are not!!!

They can't get the equipment right, they can't get rosters right and they can't get the leave right.

In a nutshell it's FU@KED!

Puff they are trying to fix the equipment problem. If you live long enough the old john deere will be replaced with the john deere 11. Should work a treat.

Seats might still be trash, but at least the wings will fold.

The don

True, and it's even intentional!
On other models it's a rather expensive side effect of desperate weight reduction ....... ;)

The seats are crap on the 777 because like so much else the company does to us it gave us the cheapest option. As you look at the Boeing catalog there are 3 options for the cockpit seats and you can guess from all the back problems pilots have which option Emirates choose for us.
This like so much more is what a new joiner has to look forward to if you elect to join Emirates. They might have Big Shinny Jets but they treat you like absolute trash. Think long and very carefully before joining, your health depends on it!

Is that the -300 or -200 gloie?:}

The don

Let's see, i'm not familiar with the early production denomination of the fat one. Maybe the 200 was the one stuck under the bridge in France and the 300 the one with the somewhat short wiring ..... The one with the wing crutches is called 800 and even its wings still crack.
I guess the 800 will stay the one and only series, but who knows, maybe they could adopt the JD's idea about folding wings and by that cure their blunder!

Sorry for the drift, but it's fun!

As long as there is a nonsensical and irrelevant Boeing vs Airbus spat to distract the proletariat from the real issues in Rome, the Bourgeoisie will continue to thrive.

Anyone for a night out at the colosseum?

Decisions decisions
 

I'll get to the point before explaining my situation.

The decision I hope I will have to make at some point will be whether I take the first opportunity to move over to EK or stick at my current airline gain my captaincy then move over to EK. (if I did want to leave)
If I did move over as soon as I can I expect a 10+ year wait till command from what I've read in this thread.
If I gained command at present airline I thought (maybe naively) I would possibly get a deal with EK basically saying go to the RHS for a few years (as SFO) and then we'll move you over.
How likely is that? or is it just worth going over straight away if I wanted to make the move.

If EK wont hire DEC would it be wise to consider a move to the RHS for a slight pay cut for a few years until Captaincy?
If they do hire DEC do you think you'd have a chance getting the LHS with only narrow body hours? or will you need some widebody experience?


Background info

I am just about to start my first airline job on the A320 family after finishing flight school last year.
I have always wanted to fly Long Haul to be able to stay in your destinations and having flown EK lots when I was much younger I have always had a soft spot for it.
Having read this thread I understand that I have been very naive as I thought a tax free salary with accommodation etc was a pretty good deal. Maybe it is but maybe not. But I guess I'll be finding out just how it is when I start flying after my type.
Having spoken to a number of crew about EK they have suggested making sure that I visit DXB a good number of times to make sure that I enjoy the place and talk to people who work for them.

Sorry if you think the info is pointless but as I am just starting out I am trying to gather as much info as possible and any help is very much appreciated.

Thanks all!

If you join as an FO, you will be on the bottom of the list. There is no fast track commands, regardless of your previous experience.

There won't be any "Deals" done. The criteria are laid down and adhered to.

In the past, there has been a "Fast track" command scheme, where highly experienced FOs were promoted inside the normal three year minimum.

That hasn't happened for several years,is no longer in our manual, and would be unlikely to happen as long as there are sufficient FOs in the company to fill the seats (which will be the case for the foreseeable.)

They have actually taken DECs while still not having the fast-track route open, and that would probably be the case in the future.

It's happened in the past, but that was at a time of rapid growth and limited availability on the world market.

Never say never, but it seems unlikely anytime in the future. While EK is still expanding, on a percentage basis it will never be as rapid as, say, 8 years ago, when it doubled it's fleet in around four years.

It will therefore always have much more capacity to fill the LHS from within, and can therefore be picky when it comes to DECs (if ever.)

If your goal is a LHS with Emirates, the quickest route is to join asap as am FO and wait your turn.

SOPS, Wizofoz.

Thanks for the info. Still got a minimum of 3 years until I get enough experience to think about moving over so will deffo keep an eye on how things progress.

Another question,
Does the tax free salary actually help at all or does it pretty much just compensate for the cost of living?

aussiesteve
 

To reiterate comments by Wizofoz, SOP and others on this and more, := I wouldn't make that decision basing on such subjective grounds as Wizofoz has just quoted and it's unlikely that, unless you are a UAE national, you will join as a FO ASAP since you've just made it out of training school and only gained some employment which is a huge achievement; congratulations and well done :D

My advice is that you take heart, consolidate your achievement thus far and learn the trade. Soon you will have that experience that employers look for.