Radio Discipline
 

I have mulled over whether or not I should address this issue on this forum, but after last night's shift it needs to be said.

Why is it that in this part of the world radio discipline is so poor?
As a controller I find it incredible that I have to call an aircraft 3 and 4 times to get their attention. An observation here is that the more automated the aircraft, or the higher up the foodchain the operator is, the less likely the pilot is to answer on the first call!

I cannot believe that this disrespect (for that is what it is) is shown by pilots at the other end of the flight - in Europe or the States - yet it seems to be very prevalent in the Middle East. I've heard excuses, for example, it is at the end of a 12 hour flight etc, but it happens on outbound flights as well.
I know that sometimes ATC radios might not be the best, but surely professionalism dictates that as a pilot you should be more vigilant at such times.

So guys let's work together - listen out.
Rant over.

Maybe because the guys are just tired, after a 5 days shift, a 12hours or mini rest at the base after a long night turn around... and starting again...
Missing calls when we are tired is so easy! at the beginning or at the end of a flight!

You're right. This is a common exchange:


ATC: "EK 123, turn right heading 150."


ATC: "EK 123, turn right heading 150."


ATC: "EK 123, turn right heading 150."


ATC: "EK 123, UAE/Bahrain/Baghdad???"


Pilot: "EK 123, go ahead."


Two nights ago it was someone 'super' with a really cool sounding drawl coming back from Munich, reading back clearances like, "Three one zero six zero." It sounded so cool.


RT standards here are woeful and yet we have people defending the standard of recent joiners in the pay review thread and others. Mind you some of the defenders are trainers who teach them and sign them off so make of it what you will.

This is also applicable to ATC as well.

How many times i ve heard saying things without a name.

"03 in use , 1024"

"1024 what????"
"03 what????"

And many other examples.

Personally I find the U.S R.T the most effective and efficient way of radio.

A common practise by DXB GND:

"Emirates 123" (with no further info)

Should normally be responded to with:

"Station calling Emirates 123 on 118.75, go ahead with call sign"

Takes up valuable frequency time as the controller has to make a proper call to the required aircraft.

I sadly agree with ATC on this, last night I heard the poor UAE guy say in an almost resigned way "level passing?" And this is home base traffic. Even my 'other half' did the same so I became one of the 'crew of shame' (we had a discussion) but it pains me to micromanage things like call sign read back and standard radio calls.

Wake up ground controllers
 

I will add to what FFf said, after being told to told to contact ground by dlv I normally say "emirates 123" only to be responded to with a "with a Pass your message" response from a whining oz (female) controller.
They should know that ek 123 is at stand b21 and by contacting them we are requesting up push and start.
Controllers please wake up!

ATC do a good job here boys and girls, it is a serious lack of discipline and professionalism to be constantly missing radio calls. Do you think a crew would get away with missing several calls in say the London or JFK terminal area? Then why the complacency and lack of effort in DXB?

The radio clarity and accent in DXB is not an excuse.

14 hour flight..... how far is LAX, do you behave the same in the LAX terminal area??? probably not.

There is varying standards in all departments whether ATCO's or pilots but for God's sake do we have to have "comin down", "with a flash", "12 point 3 for 7" sounds good in Texas but pleeeeeze!

Are these the same "cool cats" that whine on here and in the ASR summaries each week???

Just too cool for school and know it all..... ah to be so talented as the few

the clarity over the bubin fix seems a bit dodgy at times actually... or is it just me?

ATC do a great job here but then they clear you to cross 30L or line up on 30R, expecting you to make it quick, but leave the freaking red lights ON???? Every time! Expeditious movement is expected of us but this red light thing is not rocket science. Please ATC switch off the red lights on time as this nanny airline won't allow the pilot to start building up momentum on a 300 ton aircraft until the light is out.



Amusing. I've even heard US ATCOs pulling their hair out at their own pilots not using callsigns, not reading back clearances properly and it has to be repeated, etc. Why do they have to include instructions in the ATIS teaching pilots that the callsign must be used if US RT is so good?

No, they're pulling their hair out every time EK does a PDC read back that clearly says no need for a read back.

The attitude of some controllers throughout the Gulf can at times be rather agressive I must admit. However, I also agree that the standard of RT and the lack of RT discipline by some aircraft operating in the Gulf can also be beyond limits of minimum acceptable. I am sorry to have to say that some of the most non-standard RT does come from a few of the North Americans. They read back partial instructions without even using their callsign, unacceptable.

I will admit that I make mistakes on the radio but I try to be standard at all times. It is poor professionalism when either end of the radio offer anything but "standard" phraseology in an acceptable manner. There is a hidden anger and frustration behind some people on the radio and a little more patience and effort to be professional should be considered when going to work.

With many mixed nationalities in the vast majority of middle east cockpits, they do not speak fluent English lvl 6. However, it is not all the cockpits problems as there are controllers from the Netherlands who are not always the easiest to understand, Australians who seem to have zero tolerance as well as some female European controllers. When operating in the M/E a few people seem to talk on the radio like the way they drive thier SUVs (it's all about me attitude).

I will say that there is tiredness and there is fatigue and both ARE on either end of the microphone, we have to over come our issues and deal with it and remain professional and make standard calls. I am not writing this for any other reason but for those who read it to be standard and have respect to make all our time on the airwaves safe and easier.

Communication is Communication. If you are from OZ you have a certain set of "standard RT", if you are from the UK you have a certain set of "standard RT", and so on and so on.

Come to Emirates and you have every dominant ego tripping nationality who thinks that there way of speaking on the radio is the ONLY way. Look at the CCI pages for US destinations and most other English speaking destinations outside of the UK and Australia, all of them say "nonstandard RT". What gives you the right to come here and dictate your standard RT manual on the rest of us? When I came here I had never heard of flight level two hundred. It was flight level two zero zero but because I have some comprehension of the English language I can understand what is being said and don't try to correct those who were trained to say things that way. Also, I have never heard of "charlie charlie" which seems to be used here a lot also.

Question for the ATC folks.

Do you prefer when guys call you with "emirates 123, good morning" and then wait for you to reply for them to pass their message

OR

Since you are sitting there monitoring the radio and that is one of your primary jobs, do you just prefer for an aircraft to call and pass the full message upon first call up.

Magg, I do agree with you that there is a weak spot at BUBIN specially when your in the turn to commence outbound leg in the hold.

I work airspace north of the UAE so what goes on with OMDB GMC, or the BUBIN hold, doesn't hassle me and those are procedures / issues for Dubai to work through.
Also my issue is not whether the phraseologies are correct, or whether FAA phraseology is better than the ICAO version. Although these may be valid discussion point, both those arguments pre-suppose the pilot has actually answered the ATC.

I am referring to the lack of active listening out / monitoring the frequency. The numerous calls just to elicit a response, and then generally the readback is incorrect.
Heaven help if one day we have to give someone avoiding action in the form of an immediate turn...

PDC Readback........don't get me started !!


WTF good is a PDC if you must call and read it back


No rants on controllers, but those who issue a clearance, then we read back, then issue another clearance, and we read back, and sometimes a THIRD....c'mon, really?? just give me my level, heading, and clearance limit all in one statement.....I can figure it out.

Maaaaaate, back en straylia, you ARE REQUIRED to read back a PDC :E and it should be no diiiiferent nywhere else!

Seriously for a short second....I agree with the previous posters, shocking shocking RT discipline, barely a 2 in my book (it's a small book).
But then today EK 521, 531, 571, 621, all on frequency taking each other's calls due to the controllers poor use of his boom mike....and accent dear I say it, even I had trouble picking up what he was saying (with a completely different flight number)

Yes pilot RT can be poor, the "PDC received" and not giving your aircraft type to approach are my 2 pet hates.

However being told to "line up and be ready immediate" then forgetting to put the stop bars down happens all too often and requires an unnecessary RT call from us.

Yeah Mate, I get it.


You're missing my point entirely. :ugh:

Falcon Maaaattteeee, I hope your not taking the piss. Turtle; readback of a PDC is mandatory worldwide unless advised otherwise. DCL's however, are text only exchanges, nothing to do with the country, rather the format, refer OMC 3.2.2

On the topic of communications in Dubai;

1) Know the meaning of the instruction "Monitor"
2) On initial departure contact only call sign and altitude passing are required, on arrival the same as above with the addition of aircraft type (why do people announce the ATIS received?)
3) ATC; time to publish a note stating that all aircraft contacting DXB DIRECTOR should use Callsign only, so the poor controller doesn't have to keep issuing the instruction. Also maybe it'd be an idea to include the departure frequency with the clearance and specify an altitude to switch automatically to departures, that should help clear some congestion on tower?

FAA: see point 2/d/
[URL="http://www.faa.gov/air_traffic/publications/atpubs/aim/aim0502.html"]

5-2-2. Pre-departure Clearance Procedures

a. Many airports in the National Airspace System are equipped with the Tower Data Link System (TDLS) that includes the Pre-departure Clearance (PDC) function. The PDC function automates the Clearance Delivery operations in the ATCT for participating users. The PDC function displays IFR clearances from the ARTCC to the ATCT. The Clearance Delivery controller in the ATCT can append local departure information and transmit the clearance via data link to participating airline/service provider computers. The airline/service provider will then deliver the clearance via the Aircraft Communications Addressing and Reporting System (ACARS) or a similar data link system or, for nondata link equipped aircraft, via a printer located at the departure gate. PDC reduces frequency congestion, controller workload and is intended to mitigate delivery/readback errors. Also, information from participating users indicates a reduction in pilot workload.

b. PDC is available only to participating aircraft that have subscribed to the service through an approved service provider.

c. Due to technical reasons, the following limitations currently exist in the PDC program:

1. Aircraft filing multiple flight plans are limited to one PDC clearance per departure airport within a 24-hour period. Additional clearances will be delivered verbally.

2. If the clearance is revised or modified prior to delivery, it will be rejected from PDC and the clearance will need to be delivered verbally.

d. No acknowledgment of receipt or readback is required for a PDC.

e. In all situations, the pilot is encouraged to contact clearance delivery if a question or concern exists regarding an automated clearance.



Then Australian:
ENR 1.1-5 paras 3.24 - 3.24.8 detail

PDC READBACK
After you get your PDC via ACARS the pilot is free to contact DEL (if it exists) or GND (if it doesn't) when ready to do so. The aircraft must read back the SID (and assigned transition if there is one), assigned runway, STAR (if given), any conditional requirements, squawk, and current parking stand. If done on GND it must be done prior to requesting push or taxi.
QF1 => Sydney Clearance Delivery, QF1, PDC Readback

DEL => QF1, Sydney Delivery

QF1=> DEL, RWY 34L RICHMOND2 DEP, RIC trans, 3324, Bay 31

DEL => QF1

The readback of the call sign by ATC is acknowledgement that the readback of the PDC is correct, this is all the pilot needs to be able to proceed. In the above example the aircraft could now call GND and ask for further clearances as per normal, there is no need to be told to call GND, you just do it. Note that assigned altitude is not one of the things that has to be read back.

Scandi...calm down cobber, you WILL note in my post that I did indeed make reference to the PDC procedure as laid down in our truely awesome manuals, it was a sarcastic play on the Ozzie predilection for believing their own BS, but it was a reference none the less, apologies for not being clear.

I agree with your points 1-2-3, but there is always the exception..."DXB app EK XXX 77W passing 8500"
"EK XXX confirm you have Hotel QNH 1002?"
"Affirm we've got hotel, 1002"

Thats one more call than there need be IMHO.

Pilot: Dubai Center, EK123 Heavy passing FL200 descending 10000 feet QNH 1002, Boeing 77W (or "Super" - Airbus 388), speed 300 kts, radar heading 260.

ATC: EK123 good day, say again passing level?

............


Everyone's making mistake, everyone's missing calls...

Caynine,

I have to call bullish#t on your post. In 18 years of flying, much of it in North America, I have never heard a pilot say "comin' down" or "in a flash(wtf?)." Not even in Texas. For the most part NA pilots adapt to EK RT quite quick as stated by a controller on this thread.

What I find amusing is that the people who are so hung up on RT discipline generally stuff it up each and every time they fly to a US destination.

A few examples.

-You ARE NOT EXPECTED to report "established ILS XX." You are just adding to radio congestion when you make that unnecessary call! Particularly in extremely busy environments such as NY. They can tell you are established. Wonder how it would go over with Dubai approach if you gave them souls on board each time you checked in or what you had for dinner?

-On your first contact with a ground controller you are expected to let them know you have the current ATIS. in my experience most EK crews will miss that call or they will give it to Ramp who couldn't care less.

-A positive handover to the tower frequency while taxiing out for departure is not SOP in the US. Passing the last intersection you are expected to switch to Tower Frequency. I've noticed ground controllers just tell EK to switch to Tower because we miss that so often. Notice you don't hear ground telling Alaska or United to switch to tower.

-"Fully Ready." You are ready for pushback or you are not ready for pushback. "Fully Ready" is not a call that's made in NA.

-"Heavy" is used on the initial call to a center frequency and every call to Approach, Tower, and ground.

- At stations like Seattle where the PDC says "read back not required" read back is not required.

But this isn't rocket science and IMHO there is no need to get wrapped around the axle. If you are going to make RT your hot button issue then you stand to benefit from using proper RT in the US as well. Can't we all get along? :ok:

My 2p

[QUOTE] the clarity over the bubin fix seems a bit dodgy at times actually... or is it just me? /QUOTE]

Not nearly as bad as the "Desdi triangle" - not really the spot where you need a radio black hole...

[QUOTE] Personally I find the US RT the most effective and efficient way of radio. /QUOTE]

Just because you can't be bothered doing things properly doesn't mean the rest of us will follow your lead!

[QUOTE] You ARE NOT EXPECTED to report "established ILS XX." You are just adding to radio congestion when you make that unnecessary call! Particularly in extremely busy environments such as NY /QUOTE]

Maybe so in NY but in Dubai (and much of the rest of the world), we are REQUIRED to ascertain that you are established before transfer to the tower. Any doubts as to why, just ask a Swiss(air) pilot. :ugh: The fact that certain individuals don't bother to do so doesn't change the requirement. :=

As to attitudes, we do try but after the twentieth Air Arabia in a row asks for everything but the kitchen sink and/or each and every flight to/from the sub-continent insists on confirming each and every transmission it does become a bit wearing..... methinks they wouldn't make the same requests in other, busy, complex TMAs, so why here? :uhoh:

My 2p

Not nearly as bad as the "Desdi triangle" - not really the spot where you need a radio black hole...

Just because you can't be bothered doing things properly doesn't mean the rest of us will follow your lead!

Maybe so in NY but in Dubai (and much of the rest of the world), we are REQUIRED to ascertain that you are established before transfer to the tower. Any doubts as to why, just ask a Swiss(air) pilot. :ugh: The fact that certain individuals don't bother to do so doesn't change the requirement. :=

As to attitudes, we do try but after the twentieth Air Arabia in a row asks for everything but the kitchen sink and/or each and every flight to/from the sub-continent insists on confirming each and every transmission it does become a bit wearing..... methinks they wouldn't make the same requests in other, busy, complex TMAs, so why here? :uhoh:

Guy D'ageradar,

That's the point i'm trying to make! You are expected to follow the rules for the current area of operations. So when you are in Dubai or London for example you would call "established." Yet when you are in the USA you ARE NOT SUPPOSED to call "established." You are just tying up a busy frequency.

I don't think you realize your hypocrisy You seem to imply that it's ok to disregard the local rules because in the EU/Dubai that call is necessary. When flying into SEA, IAH, DFW, BOS, etc you are expected to follow the local rules.

I will direct you to your own statement "Just because you can't be bothered doing things properly doesn't mean the rest of us will follow your lead!" Take your own advice. When I'm in Dubai I follow proper comm procedures for Dubai and likewise for the US. Apparently you just do what you think is right.

So next time you fly to the USA do it PROPERLY! Most americans won't give you a hard time for screwing it up because they understand you don't have years of operating in that arena. But if you want to beat the RT drum then you might as well start practicing proper RT.

EK related Pprune posts, where there are three different themes:

1. Australians are better than Americans (countries are changeable)
2. 777 is better than the 380 (aircraft are changeable)
3. We are professionals and deserve more money

Ladies and gentleman, until we stop squabbling like children over points 1 & 2, we won't get anyone to believe point 3.

Harry

I agree 100% with Harry. The inferiority complex runs deep with certain individuals. I think the vast majority of pilots across all nationalities just want to finish the flight and go relax with a beer. It's not that hard. :ugh:

Apologies if I was unclear - I am a Dubai ATCO - not much chance you'll find me flying around the Eastern Seaboard!

No, I only work here so I adhere to the local requirements. Having worked in several very different countries, I can assure you that they are anything but standardised.

See above. As anyone who has worked in this part of the world for a significant period would confirm, I do what I am required to do by the local authorities and often more, as required by my own conscience.

Harry,

Agreed, although I think we could find a much larger number of xenophobic examples!

Laker - your round ? :E

Guy,

Where did I say anything xenophobic? I have no idea as to your nationality and I don't care. My post was directed at individuals (not nationalities) who slag others for procedure mistakes yet are totally unaware that they are operating against local procedures when flying to US destinations. There are a small but vocal group at EK (pilots) who get on their soap box but then operate outside the norm when in NA. Either you follow proper RT everywhere or you don't have good RT. Personally I could care less but I find the general hypocrisy within EK amusing.

Laker...spot on.

f.

Laker,

I was referring to point one of Harry's post - the intention was light-hearted and not intended as a personal slight to him or to you. Lighten up and have one of these beers :ok:

As to the individuals you talk of, they exist in both ATC and the cockpit - here and elsewhere - all we can do is set a good example.....

I reckon most missed calls are from not wearing a headset, I now do for just that reason

Most common reasons for missed calls
 

Not listening out
On the land line
Having a rant and loosing patience or temper
Throwing toys out of the cot and telling everyone to standby
Sitting in an ivory ( control ) tower
Now having lit the blue touch paper lets actually get together to sort this crap out.
SATCO ATCO CAPT and FOs all users why don't we contact our managers and get an open face to face forum. Please no more "we make the rules you follow them." If the procedures are not being followed then it may be that they either don't work or are impractical so why not get all interested parties involved in the process, or we could keep throwing accusations at each other. As previous said it works in other areas of the world why not here. Lets cooperate.
Rant over, but I am awaiting some emotional retribution.
DD

Here's one that gets my vote:

"FULLY READY"

It's correctly stated as "READY" (for start or pushback or for takeoff etc)

READY is ready…period…why call when only partly ready? Don't get me going on the RT out there! Joined an airway over Turkey that continues over Iraq and into the Gulf last time up, and was surrounded by all three carriers from that region. By the time we got to top of descent I had a headache from the poor RT from ALL parties! Missed calls, incorrect read backs, challenges from crews to clearances (they didn't like ordered speed reductions and altitude changes to keep traffic moving) Impatient controllers…if it wasn't so embarrassing to the industry, it would have been funny. Sadly the levels of ICAO RT and language qualifications don't take into account where a pilot learns his RT…and despite the various carriers in the Gulf attempts to standardize this, it's a FAIL in my book!

Back to my morning coffee...

My favourite is: " descend to FL---, RoD 1000'/min"

Or the poor Irish chap who has to give each 1000ft clearance in the hold followed by "level in a minute"